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Discussion of Angel #32 Release 04/28/2010 (IDW)

Buffyverse Fan

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Sineya
So catching up on the discussion Frketson and I were having, he was saying that Angel has become too "wordy."

Anyway, I think Connor has become too smart, and too much of a competent Champion too fast. Illyria mentions that Connor is currently on Angel/Spike's power level and is about to surpass them. I'm a little skeptical about this choice, because if he does become noticeably stronger than Angel, that will put him above Slayer-strength...

Too wordy is right, I caught up to #32 and Frketson has it pegged. Wes & Fred were wordy, but they're gone now, and it's darned odd to give a kid with one year of college under his belt that level of vocabulary.

I agree with Gunn that Connor is an odd choice as leader of Angel Inc. I'd hesitantly go with Spike, myself.

Spike kind of sucks. He's like a poor man's Charlie Sheen. I'm pretty skeptical about him banging the evil gal he's interrogating just before he kills her...

Angel is manic to say the least. From broody to hyper is an odd transition...

I wouldn't say Gunn's written badly, but he's not written with the same depth and maturity that J August/Joss gave him. He's a bit bitchy, which is a weird route to take an Alpha Male character like Gunn.

The Hummer's a little cliche for their ragtag team.

And also, what's up with Kate worrying about them having enough muscle to take on an office building? She was the only human of the bunch? Spike is Spike, Connor's apparently even stronger now, they've got the Winged Angel, and Dez--Angel Inc. & the Scoobies rarely had that level of muscle for even bigger threats...

The good?
Eddie Hope (voiced by Michael Rosenbaum in my head) is great. He's just a very new take on a Buffyverse demon, not cliched or a ripoff at all.

The Lady Watcher was pretty badass too. There's no way she's going to replace Wes in anyone's hearts. Plus, I'm not thrilled that everyone's seemingly an amazing fighter, that's not Whedonesque at all. Characters like Fred, Tara, and Xander were so important, yet every hero here seems to be at least Slayer-level in fighting prowess.

Also, her talking orb is such a rip-off of the one from Halo :p

I'm not crying "abysmal" here, but it reads very much like fan fiction.

PS- This issue also broke canon. The homeowner was either dead or turned into a vamp, either way, Spike should have been able to enter the house.
 
B
Buffy4ever2k10
Nothing to add.
S
SpaceLord
I would say it reads like bad fanfic, there are a lot of fanfic that surpasses the show imo

Frketson

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So catching up on the discussion Frketson and I were having, he was saying that Angel has become too "wordy."

Anyway, I think Connor has become too smart, and too much of a competent Champion too fast. Illyria mentions that Connor is currently on Angel/Spike's power level and is about to surpass them. I'm a little skeptical about this choice, because if he does become noticeably stronger than Angel, that will put him above Slayer-strength...

Too wordy is right, I caught up to #32 and Frketson has it pegged. Wes & Fred were wordy, but they're gone now, and it's darned odd to give a kid with one year of college under his belt that level of vocabulary.

I agree with Gunn that Connor is an odd choice as leader of Angel Inc. I'd hesitantly go with Spike, myself.

Spike kind of sucks. He's like a poor man's Charlie Sheen. I'm pretty skeptical about him banging the evil gal he's interrogating just before he kills her...

Angel is manic to say the least. From broody to hyper is an odd transition...

I wouldn't say Gunn's written badly, but he's not written with the same depth and maturity that J August/Joss gave him. He's a bit bitchy, which is a weird route to take an Alpha Male character like Gunn.

The Hummer's a little cliche for their ragtag team.

And also, what's up with Kate worrying about them having enough muscle to take on an office building? She was the only human of the bunch? Spike is Spike, Connor's apparently even stronger now, they've got the Winged Angel, and Dez--Angel Inc. & the Scoobies rarely had that level of muscle for even bigger threats...

The good?
Eddie Hope (voiced by Michael Rosenbaum in my head) is great. He's just a very new take on a Buffyverse demon, not cliched or a ripoff at all.

The Lady Watcher was pretty badass too. There's no way she's going to replace Wes in anyone's hearts. Plus, I'm not thrilled that everyone's seemingly an amazing fighter, that's not Whedonesque at all. Characters like Fred, Tara, and Xander were so important, yet every hero here seems to be at least Slayer-level in fighting prowess.

Also, her talking orb is such a rip-off of the one from Halo :p

I'm not crying "abysmal" here, but it reads very much like fan fiction.

PS- This issue also broke canon. The homeowner was either dead or turned into a vamp, either way, Spike should have been able to enter the house.
Totally agreed with all points, as i said in the other thread, everyone is talking like they're rocket scientists, it sounds nothing like the characters. It suits Illyria but that's about it.

Yeah i have no idea why Connor is leading the group, hes done nothing to prove that he can, where as Gunn has run his own crew before and Spike can definitely lead too.

And yes agreed about Spike too, hes just annoying in this arc, though theres one line where i did laugh. The one where they exit the hummer to attack the lab and someone yells "Go Go Go!!" And spike says something like "thats the best you could come up with?"

Will read #28 tonight, and also ATF epilogue and the Lorne special too.
 
B
Buffy4ever2k10
Spike never fails to make me laugh. :)

Buffyverse Fan

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Sineya
Yeah i have no idea why Connor is leading the group, hes done nothing to prove that he can, where as Gunn has run his own crew before and Spike can definitely lead too.
No I agree. Gunn also lead Angel Inc. when everyone was MIA, but since he was just a super-villain, I think Spike would be the best choice.

And yes agreed about Spike too, hes just annoying in this arc, though theres one line where i did laugh. The one where they exit the hummer to attack the lab and someone yells "Go Go Go!!" And spike says something like "thats the best you could come up with?"
He made me laugh a couple times :)
 

Buffy4ever2k10

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Did Angel really approved Illyrias mating with Connor? WTF!

The Demonarmy confuses me. We still don´t know next to nothing about them and why and what Connor is chosen for?

Are they good or evil and what´s with the angels? There is so much going on right now. Maybe to much?
 

Buffyverse Fan

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Sineya
Are they good or evil and what´s with the angels? There is so much going on right now. Maybe to much?
That whole plot is ridiculous. A huge plot point throughout the series were that TPTB did not directly interfere with humans. Them having an Angel army thing went against everything we know about them. I have a feeling IDW is just going to ignore that...

Did Angel really approved Illyrias mating with Connor? WTF!
He might have had to do it to get Illyria to bust him out :)

The Demonarmy confuses me. We still don´t know next to nothing about them and why and what Connor is chosen for?
I think Willingham is taking that from the episodes "Lullaby" & "Dad" where Angel found out that Connor was the "chosen one" in many demon religions.
 

Frketson

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I think Willingham is taking that from the episodes "Lullaby" & "Dad" where Angel found out that Connor was the "chosen one" in many demon religions.
Exactly my thoughts, i'm definately interested to see where this leads.

I also read The Lorne special and ATF: Epilogue, lorne special was good and i really liked the last panel, the ending lines were really well chosen. And i loved the back of the book with Mark Lutz in it, had no idea they were that close.

ATF: Epilogue was great, reminds me just how much i miss someone of Lynch's caliber writing the Angel series. Tbh i think we need to start getting some writers from the angel series to do some arcs, now that would be cool.
 

Buffyverse Fan

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Sineya
I also read The Lorne special and ATF: Epilogue, lorne special was good and i really liked the last panel, the ending lines were really well chosen. And i loved the back of the book with Mark Lutz in it, had no idea they were that close.
For them to have been close enough to move across the street from each other meant they had to have been exceptionally close friends. It makes it even more sad knowing all of the people Andy left behind...

ATF: Epilogue was great, reminds me just how much i miss someone of Lynch's caliber writing the Angel series. Tbh i think we need to start getting some writers from the angel series to do some arcs, now that would be cool.
Yeah, I agree. Fury, Noxon, Greenwalt, I'd take any of them.

No offense to Joss, but I think it was a bad move to stop mapping out the arcs. At the very least he could have had one of his people doing it...
 

Buffyverse Fan

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Sineya
I don't know why I'm still reading this series. It's confusing and too wordy.
Like Frketson said, it's addictive ;)

I can't see any longtime fan reading the issues and saying it's top notch, but based on its low price, and the fact that there's no other way to get Angel Investigations stories, I'll stick with it for a while longer.

I would've dropped if we got one more issue of Armstrong, but Willingham's just not good, but far from abysmal. I'd much prefer Lynch or even the Barbary Coast guy, not to mention the original writers, but...
 

crazysoulless

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In BtVS S7, everyone made Faith leader even though she had no leadership ability, had never been responsible for other people, and hadn't been there in the thick of things like a lot of them. I can easily picture someone making Connor the leader. He lived in a demon dimension for nearly two decades and was very focused and together since he had the fake "normal childhood" memories added by Wolfram & Hart.

Spike has some good lines but I can't stand him in the comics. I don't see his character arc having progressed in that way. "Poor man's Charlie Sheen." hehe

Is it really so hard to imagine Illyria-in-Fred's-body/Connor after Jasmine-in-Cordelia's-body/Connor?
 

Frketson

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For them to have been close enough to move across the street from each other meant they had to have been exceptionally close friends. It makes it even more sad knowing all of the people Andy left behind...


Yeah, I agree. Fury, Noxon, Greenwalt, I'd take any of them.

No offense to Joss, but I think it was a bad move to stop mapping out the arcs. At the very least he could have had one of his people doing it...
Yeah, its sad though i look forward to Lorne returning one day.

Yeah i know, we all know he HATES angel but at least if he palmed it off to one of the guys who worked it on it too that would be great.

Offence to Joss, but he really needs start caring about the angel franchise.

In BtVS S7, everyone made Faith leader even though she had no leadership ability, had never been responsible for other people, and hadn't been there in the thick of things like a lot of them. I can easily picture someone making Connor the leader. He lived in a demon dimension for nearly two decades and was very focused and together since he had the fake "normal childhood" memories added by Wolfram & Hart.
Well the faith thing was silly as well, Willow showed she was capable as a leader when Buffy was dead between s5-6.

Another thing, Faith didnt ask to be leader, Connor did. Its silly to think that he believes he can lead a team of people who have had way more experience, and i dont just mean in fighting because Connor has had a lifetime of it, i just mean in general.
 

Buffyverse Fan

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Another thing, Faith didnt ask to be leader, Connor did. Its silly to think that he believes he can lead a team of people who have had way more experience, and i dont just mean in fighting because Connor has had a lifetime of it, i just mean in general.
Definitely, also Faith was the only other Slayer. At Angel Investigations, you're right, Connor's arguably the least experienced warrior of the veterans. Spike has 90%+ of Angel's skills, and the day Connor beats Spike in a fair fight is the day I stop reading the comics, lol. Faith & Angel put Connor in his place without too much effort, there's no way Spike isn't capable of doing the same.

I would love to see Connor take Satsu down though :). I'd have to believe that Connor's lifetime of training from Holtz & Angel would put him a notch above a new Slayer...
 

crazysoulless

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You don't like Satsu? She's amazing!

I never liked the fact that in AtS S4 Faith could take Connor in a fight. He seemed a lot more skilled than her. And she had just spent three years in prison without fighting demons and eight months in a coma before that. Connor was fighting nonstop his whole life. I understood Angel being able to take him in a fight since he was over 200 years old and spent another 100 years in Hell. The only person (not counting Gods, etc) that could take Angel in a fight was Buffy and she's literally the best Slayer in history.

Faith may have been the only Slayer when Buffy wasn't there but she was the most inexperienced when it came to leadership. Willow, Giles, Xander, Wood, even Kennedy knew more about it than she did. Faith was barely at the stage where she could take orders from people let alone intelligently and responsibly give them. She was in no way ready to lead anyone. I thought it was another insult to Buffy that not only did they take away her position but they gave it to Faith simply because she was a Slayer as if the only reason Buffy was the leader was because she was a Slayer.
 

Buffyverse Fan

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You don't like Satsu? She's amazing!
It's not that I don't like her, it's pretty much what you're saying, Faith made a fool of Connor in S4. I'd like him to at least be able to take on the #3 Slayer, even if the #2 embarrassed him.

I never liked the fact that in AtS S4 Faith could take Connor in a fight. He seemed a lot more skilled than her. And she had just spent three years in prison without fighting demons and eight months in a coma before that. Connor was fighting nonstop his whole life. I understood Angel being able to take him in a fight since he was over 200 years old and spent another 100 years in Hell. The only person (not counting Gods, etc) that could take Angel in a fight was Buffy and she's literally the best Slayer in history.
Connor's definitely more skilled in practice (not sure how you'd count the Slayer memories), but I think the big difference is that Faith was significantly physically stronger.

Faith may have been the only Slayer when Buffy wasn't there but she was the most inexperienced when it came to leadership. Willow, Giles, Xander, Wood, even Kennedy knew more about it than she did. Faith was barely at the stage where she could take orders from people let alone intelligently and responsibly give them. She was in no way ready to lead anyone. I thought it was another insult to Buffy that not only did they take away her position but they gave it to Faith simply because she was a Slayer as if the only reason Buffy was the leader was because she was a Slayer.
Can't argue with that, but they wanted Faith. Gunn quit the team because Connor took over, and I doubt Illyria or Spike would take orders from him even now...

---------- Post added at 04:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 AM ----------

In terms of training, I'd say Connor might be the best trained now that Wesley's dead. Connor's spent about a year training with Angel, a year with Spike, and 17 years with Holtz. And I'd tend to agree with Keith (Holtz) that Holtz may have been the best trained fighter in the history of the Buffyverse. In his 40s he took on a whole unit of black ops guys firing machine guns at him, all he had was a sword, yet he slaughtered them all dodging presumably hundreds of bullets. Buffy could probably do that too, but she has superpowers. Holtz' skills are purely from discipline.
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
I like searching for fan fictions invovling Holtz and Buffy being friends or allies.

SpaceLord

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I understood Angel being able to take him in a fight since he was over 200 years old and spent another 100 years in Hell. The only person (not counting Gods, etc) that could take Angel in a fight was Buffy and she's literally the best Slayer in history.
I never understood how it came that Angel is some sort of super fighter? I mean from what I understand of his character he spent his days as Angelus avoiding fighting anybody that could challenge him and then spent another 100 years with a soul eating rats pretty much. Sure he got sucked into the hell dimension but came back not exactly stronger from what I recall.

Then we have Spike who spent his days as a vampire going up against the best (slayers) and somehow he's not as powerful as Angel? I just find that to be ridiculous to be honest.

I'm not saying that it would make him a good leader or anything but I just think that the only reason that he is number 2 to Angel is because Angel is the primary character and hero of this comic just like Angel will always be second to Buffy in the Buffy comics.
 

Buffyverse Fan

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I never understood how it came that Angel is some sort of super fighter? I mean from what I understand of his character he spent his days as Angelus avoiding fighting anybody that could challenge him and then spent another 100 years with a soul eating rats pretty much. Sure he got sucked into the hell dimension but came back not exactly stronger from what I recall.

Then we have Spike who spent his days as a vampire going up against the best (slayers) and somehow he's not as powerful as Angel? I just find that to be ridiculous to be honest.

I'm not saying that it would make him a good leader or anything but I just think that the only reason that he is number 2 to Angel is because Angel is the primary character and hero of this comic just like Angel will always be second to Buffy in the Buffy comics.
Angelus avoiding fighting anyone who he couldn't screw with. The Master was the strongest vamp in history, imo, and Angelus happily fought him and lost, he fought the Beast and lost. He wasn't about the kill, he was about collateral damage. He chose not to kill Holtz, because he knew he could hurt him more keeping him alive.

A normal Slayer would be immune to his mindgames because they had no friends, family or life. What could Angelus take from them? Buffy was the first Slayer he met with something to lose.

In the Master's case, he stole Darla, in the Beast's he stole his pride and his freedom (Angelus could have killed his gypsies, but prefered to see the Beast suffer).

But back to his fighting prowess, it's innate, unlike Spike who trained to become as powerful as he is. Keep in mind, that Angelus is the ONLY vampire in the Buffyverse that has been confirmed to be 100% devoid of humanity. There is 0% of Liam in Angelus' mind, remember, that's why the Judge could easily kill a normal vampire, but not Angelus.
 
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