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Discussion of "Angel After the Fall #17" Release 12/02/09 (IDW)

A

Allycat

Guest
And then it ended!

I love the fact that they ended After the Fall with an epilogue, that really answered a lot of the obvious questions I had.

I'm glad Groo is also alive again. Having him set off with the dragon was a good move IMHO. I'm also glad they showed Jerry proposing. And man, the Lords of LA looked pissed.

I'm glad Nina and Angel are getting along well. It's quite common for people to enjoy a brief fling and then become friends afterwards. I think this might just be the first time it's happened in the Buffyverse.

The idea that Cordelia has become sort of an omniscient observer symbolised by the wind is also a great touch!

Finally, the Spike/George connection from Asylum and Shadow Puppets was re-affirmed, which once again is fuel for the great canon debate. Does anybody btw, know the song that is Spike's ringtone?

I'm happy that Angel at least in his head is able to admit that he and Spike don't hate each other. I've always had the feeling that they mutually respected each other, but were too proud to admit it. I'm glad it's finally there on paper. Even if they won't say it to each other. (Btw, I'm guessing this particular point is going to raise lots of discussion, cause I'm sure many fans will hate it.) That later bit with Beta George ratting them out to each other was classic!

I was disappointed that they didn't actually show the Spike/Spider scenes this issue. But supposedly, she might still turn up in the Spike series.

This issue wraps up the series perfectly. Although I'm happy to see it continue with a different writer.
 

Buffyverse Fan

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Sineya
I thought it was fantastic. All the people on here who bash After the Fall are insane. If you look back on AtF it really goes along with the tone of the pilot episode "City of..." & "Redefinition" with Angel narrating in this noir supernatural world of LA.

I can't say enough good things about this issue, it took us back to the basics, back to the good fight, back to Angel Investigations and back to the Hyperion.

I think it's pretty obvious by now that the Famous Vampires Arc is here to stay. I still don't love it, but like Andrew & I have talked about, this whole situation's probably leading to a global apocalypse, and in that case everyone would have found out anyway.

Aside from the public vamp thing, which is in the forefront of both series right now, I guess my only criticism is Doyle. The only real advantage After the Fall had above the TV series was that Glenn Quinn's real life death didn't keep them from using Doyle, but no one took advantage of it. Doyle was meant to come back in the show, Joss confirmed that, I just really miss the guy, and the comic would have been the perfect opportunity.

One question that I'm left with is why does Angel take W&H's interpretation of the vision of the Apocalypse?
I believe the vision's legit, but I think that what really is going on in that scene is Angel having to face an evil army by himself (probably because his & Buffy's teams are dealing with other fronts of the apocalypse), and he just goes berserk on the bad guys. He's normally a tough guy, but he really has to lose it to solely take on legions of demons. Any dead humans would be people killed by the bad guys and the dead bad guys died at his hands, but why does everyone think Angel going berserk = Angel going evil?
 

AndrewCrossett

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I think it's pretty obvious by now that the Famous Vampires Arc is here to stay. I still don't love it, but like Andrew & I have talked about, this whole situation's probably leading to a global apocalypse, and in that case everyone would have found out anyway.
Scott Allie says the upcoming "Tales of the Vampires" one-shot will deal more with explaining how people can react to the knowledge of vamps and demons this way. He said he's aware of the fact that more explanation is needed "over time." Hopefully they'll do a decent job with it.

Aside from the public vamp thing, which is in the forefront of both series right now, I guess my only criticism is Doyle. The only real advantage After the Fall had above the TV series was that Glenn Quinn's real life death didn't keep them from using Doyle, but no one took advantage of it. Doyle was meant to come back in the show, Joss confirmed that, I just really miss the guy, and the comic would have been the perfect opportunity.
I think Cordelia pretty much fulfilled the "dearly departed friend who comes back" role. Cordelia came to mean a lot more to both Angel and the fans than Doyle did, so she won the part. They could have decided that Cordy and Doyle resumed their relationship in the afterlife and *both* came back to help Angel, but that would have undercut the romantic poignancy they were going for between A & C.

One question that I'm left with is why does Angel take W&H's interpretation of the vision of the Apocalypse?[/B] I believe the vision's legit, but I think that what really is going on in that scene is Angel having to face an evil army by himself (probably because his & Buffy's teams are dealing with other fronts of the apocalypse), and he just goes berserk on the bad guys. He's normally a tough guy, but he really has to lose it to solely take on legions of demons. Any dead humans would be people killed by the bad guys and the dead bad guys died at his hands, but why does everyone think Angel going berserk = Angel going evil?
What I'd like to see in both the Buffy and Angel storylines is the victory of free will and human endeavor over "prophecy" and "visions" and other things that try to turn us into puppets on a stage, living lives according to a script someone else has imposed on us.

I want to see a Dire Prophecy that turns out to be simply wrong. Not misinterpreted, not incompletely understood, not reversed after the fact... just plain averted by the triumph of heroic action over helpless pre-destination. I want to see it in a decisive victory over the "dark futures" that both Angel and Willow seem to have in store.

My wild thought is that Season 8 will end with the Buffy and Angel gangs uniting to fight the Great Evil... winning, but all dying in the process... finding themselves together in the afterlife... and then in Season 9 taking down the Powers That Be in the ultimate victory to free humanity from slavery to Things Greater Than Themselves.

I don't know if that's the story Joss wants to tell. It seemed to be kind of a theme in "Firefly" in a more understated way. But if he did want to tell it, it would be easier to do so in the comics rather than it would have been on TV, where he'd have to deal with media scrutiny and the resulting outrage from people who'd interpret it as an "anti-God" message (even though the Buffyverse Powers clearly have nothing to do with God, who remains completely and deliberately off the stage.)
 

Clem Rocks

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Just read it, thought it was a pretty good ending to the series. loved the Burkle Wyndam-Pryce wing of the library

Anyone else get the feeling that Angel's gonna die at the end of Aftermath and Spike and his new series is gonna take over?
 
Tranquillity
Tranquillity
no, brian Lynch has said that Angel will be a regular in the Spike series

AndrewCrossett

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Anyone else get the feeling that Angel's gonna die at the end of Aftermath and Spike and his new series is gonna take over?
Chances of that: 0.00%. Since Joss isn't even involved with Aftermath, there's no way anything even remotely that significant is going to happen in it.

Angel's story isn't anywhere near finished.
 

Buffyverse Fan

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Chances of that: 0.00%. Since Joss isn't even involved with Aftermath, there's no way anything even remotely that significant is going to happen in it.

Angel's story isn't anywhere near finished.
I STRONGLY agree! But I do think that Angel will die before Spike (say 70 years down the road).
 

Tranquillity

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Buffy Summers

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I actually liked this one better than the previous, more of a return to normality in a way. I loved the Illyria bits, and the Angel & Gunn that sort of reminisced back to when Wesley was in the hospital but shows Angel has grown.
 
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