Discussion of "Angel Aftermath #22" Release 17/06/2009 (IDW)

[Angelic Slayer]

Synopsis from tfaw.com.....

The fallout from the Fall has left Angel beset by problems both mortal and from Above, and it all comes to a head here. Angel and the Potentates face one menace while Connor and Dez have their own problems to deal with. And what about the guy with the actual wings?

Discuss the latest ATF comic here!

 

[AndrewCrossett]

This was an OK conclusion to the arc, although it will probably seem a lot more original to those who

Spoiler

have never read "The Minority Report" or seen the movie.

Looks like we've got a couple of new members of Team Angel. They could be interesting, if the writer who picks up the ongoing story is any good.

I guess I just don't like Dave Ross's art. He's okay on original characters that he designed himself, but his likenesses are just bad.

I'm ready for some Gunn and Drusilla stories now.

 

[VisionGuy]

I stopped ordering these when

Spoiler

Cordelia made her appearance.

 

[white avenger]

As much as I like Kelly Armstrong's books, I really don't think that she has the touch for Angel. Maybe she would be better writing an arc for Season 8, since she obviously prefers writing about powerful women, but it was almost as though she was trying to make Angel a supporting character in his own series. I like Gwen AND Kate, and the were-cat lady is a nice touch of semi-originality, if you ignore the fact that Anita Blake had were-leopards, rats, and whatever, and Poul Anderson went so far as to have a were-Kodiak bear back in the '50's.

Has anyone heard what the next arc is supposed to be, or are they just going to do the spinoff mini-series about Gunn and Illyria for awhile?

 

[The Arcane]

Has anyone heard what the next arc is supposed to be, or are they just going to do the spinoff mini-series about Gunn and Illyria for awhile?

Going from memory here, WA, but I think that the next issue is a Gunn story that will act as a lead-in to the miniseries, followed by a 2 issue Drusilla arc. Anyone who knows for certain, feel free to corrrect me.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

#23 is about Gunn and is a (canonical) epilogue by Brian Lynch to "After the Fall." It leads into the (non-canonical) "Only Human" miniseries about Gunn and Illyria.

#24 and #25 are about Drusilla, written by Brian Lynch and Juliet Landau.

With #26 the ongoing series resumes, but we don't know yet who the creative team will be. It will probably be announced at ComicCon, and Chris Ryall has hinted it will be an announcement that will make fans very happy. There's speculation Joss might even get involved again, but we know nothing yet.

 

[The Arcane]

#23 is about Gunn and is a (canonical) epilogue by Brian Lynch to "After the Fall." It leads into the (non-canonical) "Only Human" miniseries about Gunn and Illyria.

So how does that work, exactly? I mean, if the miniseries is being written as a continuation of Gunn and Illyria's current status in the canon Angel series then what makes it non-canonical? Just the fact that it hasn't been firmly established?

And what happens if the events of the mini are later mentioned in the ongoing series? Will it become retro-canon?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

So how does that work, exactly? I mean, if the miniseries is being written as a continuation of Gunn and Illyria's current status in the canon Angel series then what makes it non-canonical? Just the fact that it hasn't been firmly established?

The fact that Whedon wasn't involved in writing, planning or overseeing the story. Same reason "Aftermath" (#18-#22) wasn't canonical.

It's like the Buffy novels or the comics before season 8... professionally produced, good quality in some cases, but not part of official Buffyverse "reality." Doesn't mean you shouldn't read them, though.

And what happens if the events of the mini are later mentioned in the ongoing series? Will it become retro-canon?

That depends on whether the ongoing series itself will be canonical from this point on. #1-#17 and #23 are canonical because Joss co-plotted them and executive produced them. It has nothing to do with quality; it's just a question of whether the creator recognizes these stories as "real" or not.

Joss can, of course, declare anything he wants "canon" whether he worked on it or not... by either saying so, or by referencing it in a canonical story. I'm kind of hoping he does that with the Drusilla story.

The latest word is that Brian Lynch and Stephen Mooney will be the creative team on #26 and #27, with the new team starting with #28.

 

[The Arcane]

No, I get the argument that Joss needs to have either worked on a story or have declared it to be canon for it to be... well... canon. What I'm not getting here is how this is working based on this being an ongoing story with parts supposedly canon and parts that aren't.

Let's just say that from issue 26 onwards it is declared that the story is, without shadow of a doubt, canon and that the story makes reference to events in previous issues, say Aftermath or the Gunn/Illyria series, yet these issues still haven't been officially endorsed by Joss as far as anyone knows. Where do you go from there?

What I'm saying is that as this is an ongoing story in an ongoing series then it's probably the easiest option to assume that what we are seeing is canon until we are told that it's not. Otherwise it becomes a logistical mess to know what is part of the true story and what is not. Joss knows how seriously much of his fanbase takes the canon debate and so I'm pretty certain that he wouldn't have allowed the canon After the Fall numbering to continue onto a new chapter if he wasn't prepared for it to be seen as canon for the time being, at least. It would have been just as easy for IDW (and offered a better selling point) to have had Aftermath be a new series with a new issue 1.

All that said, it would be nice if there was some official word on the matter one way or another. I'm sure that the fact some people are doubting the current storyline actually being canon is one of the reasons that sales are down.

Well, that and it's just not very good...

 

[AndrewCrossett]

The continuation of the numbering is IDW's decision... it suits them just fine if readers assume continued numbers = continued canon. Fox owns "Angel" so Joss wouldn't really be able to force IDW to do anything, but I doubt he really cares that much. He knows that coming out and saying "the series isn't canon from this point on" would instantly cut the sales in half (which would cost Fox money as well as IDW), so he'll probably have the courtesy not to come out and say it.

While it has a continuous numbering system, the Angel comic is divided up into separate stories. Issues 1-17 were one continuous story ("After the Fall") on which Joss worked. Those are canonical. He had nothing at all to do with 18-22 ("Aftermath") so that's not canonical. I'm only counting 23 as canon because it pays off a storyline that Brian Lynch and Joss created together. 24 and 25 are Drusilla's story... Brian Lynch and Juliet Landau wrote it, but it won't be canon unless Joss says it is, or references it in some future storyline he writes.

The rule of thumb: If Joss didn't either a) play a direct role in the creative process of a story, or b) specifically say it's canon, a story isn't canon.

It all sounds very anal, but it's just a matter of knowing what we can consider "real" or not in the Buffyverse.

 

[The Arcane]

...but it won't be canon unless Joss says it is, or references it in some future storyline he writes.

Again, I'm not really debating you on anything as it stands. I totally agree with your position on what is and is not to be considered canon. It's purely what you say in the quote above that is bothering me.

There is potential here for a real problem with the story and how it is seen by the fans, especially if only parts of the series are to be considered canon and not the whole. More specifically, if later canon stories then refer to part of stories that have not been official sanctioned. Even worse, if other plot developments of the non-canon stories end up being ignored altogether.

As I said, this is more a question of what will happen in the future if it isn't made clearer what is to be considered as being canon, especially in a situation where the issue numbering and, for all intents and purposes, the plots would suggest a continuous story.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

It is complicated, and it does have the potential for confusion, but fortunately the average fan doesn't really care about any of this. So far none of the non-canon stuff has seriously impacted anything... it could all be ignored and not referred to again.

There's already been an issue with the fact that Brian Lynch brought characters into "After the Fall" that previously appeared in his non-Joss Angel comics such as "Spike: Asylum." There was a debate on whether the presence of those characters in a canon story meant that those earlier comics should now be considered canon too. But Brian himself said that only the parts of those characters' stories that appear on the page in AtF should be considered strictly canon.

If Joss writes an Angel story in the future, I think it's safe to say he will not consider himself bound by anything that happened to the characters in stories he had no part in creating. So he may directly contradict that material, if he likes. Unless and until he does, it's not really an issue to the average fan. And even if it does become an issue, most fans would just give it a few seconds of thought and then forget about it. That kind of thing happens all the time in the big superhero comics, where "canon" tends to be virtually meaningless more than a couple of years into the past.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Gotta love this line from Angel: "These are the Powers, the ultimate White Hats. They have to be right. Don't they?" Guess Angel forgot about his whole questioning TPTB to the point of mostly rejecting them.

I also like how this issue retconned the entire premise that TPTB don't do enough to fight the good fight, now saying they don't care about subjugating humanity.

I seriously think this issue was plain bad. What makes it worse is that Armstrong thinks it's good. If she was spoofing the show that would be one thing, but she thinks she's doing it justice.

I'm not picky, I loved every issue of Brian's AtF, and I still would rank Aftermath as horrible.

 

[BuffyBot38]

In my opinion Aftermath waz completely POINTLESS i mean we learnt nothing it was boering and not all that intresting i think they shoud have ended with #17 cause that was a GOOD ending

 

[Spike Angelus]

I know I'm a bit behind, but I just finished this issue a few minutes ago. My thoughts, in random order.

1. The arc was a bit of a disappointment when compared to ATF, but, it kinda worked. I just wished more details were thrown in.
2. Angels killing people before they do bad reminds me of the movie Minority Report. (I think soemone mentioned the film early in this thread). It also reminded me of a question my ethics professor asked one time. "Would you kill Hitler as a child if it would save lives"?" Personally I think having the angels kill soemone because of what they MIGHT do goes against the entire purpose of the story of Angel (the vampire). If that was the case, he would have been killed off long ago BECAUSE he might become Angelus again.
3. so, now there's a actual angel on Team Angel. I wonder how that'll work out.
4. I don't judge a comic by art, I usually go by story, but, I have to agree with what others have said, the characters don't look like who they should. Cordy in the last issue was a big disappointment for me.

Anyway, I'm sure I've bored everyone, so I'll check out the next issue.

 

[Frketson]

Ok so i finally finished "Aftermath", i finished two issues but could never get the motivation to finish it off because it was so horrible.

Lots of bad, artwork is bad, the characterisation of ANGEL is absolutely horrible, storyline is pretty much crap, as is most of the dialogue. Also have to give props to Cordy randomly dropping in, that sucked too.

Onto the good, while there isnt much i did like Dez, she seems like she could be a great character and i thought Connor was ok as well.

Oh another horrible thing i remember, Kate tricking people into thinking she was from some government demon cleanup department by using a library card. Yeah ok.

*kills self*

 

[Buffy Summers]

This minority report storyline could be thought- provoking, if it wasn't mixed in with so much else going on.