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Discussion of Angel & Faith 10.22 "A Tale of Two Families, Part II" - Released 1/06/16 (Dark Horse)

Buffy Summers

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Writer: Victor Gischler
Penciller: Will Conrad

Faith faces off against Drusilla in a grudge match that could level Magic Town as Angel attempts to withstand Archaeus’s power over him. Meanwhile, a mysterious statue—a magical relic of great power—has been obtained by the Big Bad. What does Archaeus have planned for his new toy?


Source: Wikipedia
 

gite63

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This issue is all about rescuing Nadira. Angel was faking, of course - that Angel can resist him now I understand, but that Archaeus cannot tell that he is faking... makes him a very weak and stupid demon Lord, a father that really doesn't know his children...

More fighting, and punching, and dusting of some minions, but, of course, Dru isn't dust or harmed in any way. The only thing interesting appeared in the last panel - the statue arriving at the Museum.

In the letters section, a reader shows his concern about Fath's sex life (or lack of it) and the editor says that by the end of the arc he will be "less concerned about her... in some ways."
 

thetopher

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Called it! Of course Angel was faking so he could rescue Nadira. Pretty obvious.
Mainly because 'Angelus' never ever sounded like Angelus (not that that's a garentee in this comic), no snark, no cruelty, no much really.


So Archeaus underestimated his (souled) children. Again. But this time it wasn't even that close, no struggle to reach the soul through the demon, to reason with them, the connection is broken and stays broken apparently. (Either than or Angel has had so much more practice at fighting and beating his inner demon that he could just resist it more fully than Spike could)

The rest of the issue was basically a big fight. The Faith/Dru confrontation was a bit of a let down but it still went how I would've expected. Faith fakes an ow-ey and then stomps all over Dru's face when the time is fight. Classic rope-adope tactic. :)

Still, the main plot is in motion- the statue- is now in motion and the prper showdown for the 'magic' of magictown will most likely begin. At leasr A&F knows what its building towards...

But bits:
Giles aunts getting all 'trigger happy'.
Faith killing that Angus vamp in a nicely violent way
'Angelus' winking at Nadira and then sucker punching his grand daddy.

Also, on the letters page of this issue, somebody wrote in to say how they hated Buffy Season 10 because its been too focussed on the male characters. Namely Spike, Xander and Andrew, whilst completely ignoring Buffy, Willow and Dawn.
I hadn't actually seen this before but I think they might be right. Especially about Willow and Dawn, and then there's Buffy not having her own thing outside of her relationship with a male character (whose perspective is often more focussed on).
 
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vellavu

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Better than the last issue. But it still has the general problem of A&F S10: fillers and flat dialogues.

Fillers in this season is different than others. You can't identify which issue is a specific "filler" because every issue has considerable amount of them.

The dialogues are single-purposed. People are all business. No time for pleasantries. They talk because the plot needs them to. In fighting, instead of witty quips, the antagonists take cool gestures and make speechy villain speeches. Terrible.

I lost all my respects towards Archeaus in this issue. He's not only a "losing because of speaking/gloating too much" villain(in BtVS), but also physically weak and genre blind now. And how the hell couldn't Drusilla read Angel's soul? And why didn't Archeaus turn Nadira into a vampire? I mean, control her using the blood line, right?

In my book, he is officially at the same threat level as the Siren who's afraid of Xander, the "soul glutton" made of brownish jelly, and the guy who animates Wal-mart beef steaks.

To be not too negative, I list some good parts:
1. Sword fighting! It's been hell of a long while.
2. Although Faith becomes a good-tempered nice girl, Koh becomes the main snarker. And he's much more enjoyable than S9.
3. Drusilla finally speaks some proper crazy-talk and it's not that fake.

Meh.
 
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gite63

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I lost all my respects towards Archeaus in this issue.
He was powerful and threatening in San Francisco, he was able to control two soulled vamps - who had a hard time to free themselves from him - and now, he was duped by a lousy acting from one of his own children!

And why didn't Archeaus turn Nadira into a vampire?
Very good question.

And Faith's plan - "Go and fake to be controlled Angel!". Well, it worked, but it couldn't have worked as well. And then? There even was a plan B?

There are only 3 issues ahead. Will Archaeus be defeated or will he be in S11, with his family ruling Magic Town?
 
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vellavu

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And why exactly does Faith think Drusilla can be redeemed now? Yes, she followed Harmony's rules for a while but she killed a fellow slayer shortly afterwards.
 

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And why exactly does Faith think Drusilla can be redeemed now? Yes, she followed Harmony's rules for a while but she killed a fellow slayer shortly afterwards.
In hindsight its obvious that Faith was just stalling until she got Angel's texts- draw the vamp-forces away and keep them occupied until Angel had rescued Nadira.
That's why I think it must've been, at the very least, ajoint plan between her and Angel since it means great risk for both parties.

I'm kind of puzzled by everyone's shock at Drusilla being fooled by Angel's 'Angelus act' for a variety of reasons:
1) After his newly aquired soul Angel spent months in the company of Spike and Dru, with them seemingly unaware of his affliction. They seemed clueless as to why they were even at the gypsy camp with Darla asking for the curse to be lifted.
2) In 'Innocence' both Spike and Dru thought Angelus was still Angel, until the Judge couldn't burn him.
3) For a moment Dru thought Angelus had returned when Angel locked her and Darla in with the W&H lawyers, yet it was just Angel going way dark.

Basically Drusilla is psychic, not telepathic. She can be fooled by somebody's intent (at least in the short term) just like any other vamp. Like when Spike surprised her and turned on her in 'Crush'.
 

gite63

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In hindsight its obvious that Faith was just stalling until she got Angel's texts- draw the vamp-forces away and keep them occupied until Angel had rescued Nadira.
That's why I think it must've been, at the very least, ajoint plan between her and Angel since it means great risk for both parties.
Ajoint plan, yes, that it was obvious, but Faith says that Angel resisted Archaeus before, so he "should be able to resist again"; therefore, no plan B, just “hope”.
 

thetopher

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Ajoint plan, yes, that it was obvious, but Faith says that Angel resisted Archaeus before, so he "should be able to resist again"; therefore, no plan B, just “hope”.
No different from Buffy trusting Spike to resist Archeaus in the midst of battle right? In fact better since Faith had Angel's past experience to draw upon, Buffy did not.

I mean, at least in this case Faith and co could've called a retreat if something had gone wrong. If Buffy had been wrong her Plan B was 'get bit and die.' ;)

I still know which slayers' plan was better.
 

gite63

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No different from Buffy trusting Spike to resist Archeaus in the midst of battle right?
Totally different: Buffy's amount of faith in Spike, in his love for her, and in his own struggling to be good is huge; it was a dramatic moment, skillfully written. Same case with Angel in San Francisco. In the case of Angel and Faith, she herself says, without much conviction, that she hopes that the plan works. And it obviously works. It's not even about the relationship or the plan itself, it's about the writing. Bored now!
 

thetopher

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Totally different: Buffy's amount of faith in Spike, in his love for her, and in his own struggling to be good is huge; it was a dramatic moment, skillfully written.
No, it was idiotic and suidically dumb, just like S7 and the trigger. Buffy putting her life on the line 'because'. She could've died and her friends would've followed- she had NO back-up plan.

Shipper nonsense to say that it was 'skillfully written' because not much of S10 has been, at least plot-wise.

In the case of Angel and Faith, she herself says, without much conviction, that she hopes that the plan works.
Wow, you can hear Faith's tone of voice? Maybe she was just being cautious? Maybe she wasn't etting the others in on the plan?
Faith believes that Angel can resist because he's resisted before, he's fought his demon successfully before now, and now their going to trick Archaeus. And hey, it worked! :)
At least they had a back-up plan, rather than a 'I hope he doesn't bite me or I'm done for.' moment. :rolleyes:

It's not even about the relationship or the plan itself, it's about the writing.
Angel and and Faith's relationship was far more skillfully written by CG last season than this dull, Spuffy druggery that he's come up with, where there is no drama, no interest, no tension. We just have Spike being a doormat for Buffy and her uber-brattish ways. Yay.
They brought back Dylan- thereby making S:ITL canon (and incredibly harmful to Spike's S7 journey)- and for what? So she could give him a little pat on the back, a thank you, and then move on. Dull, cruddy writing.
 

gite63

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They brought back Dylan- thereby making S:ITL canon (and incredibly harmful to Spike's S7 journey)
Now you are sounding like a Spuffy girly fan - “Dylan doesn't exist! She is a non character! She cannot be canon! ” :D Dylan's canon, all right, but S:ITL still isn't, according to what one of the editors said in one of the letters section. And with all the errors - the chip, the coat - it's kind of tricky to place the story. If they could clarify it more, I wouldn't mind...

Faith believes that Angel can resist because he's resisted before, he's fought his demon successfully before now, and now their going to trick Archaeus. And hey, it worked!
Great writing! I couldn't have done better! :rolleyes:

Faith didn't see Angel's struggle in San Francisco, she didn't see Spike's either, she just wanted to believe that Angel would prevail once more against Archaeus; she desperately needed to rescue Nadira, because she feels responsible for her. I get that; but it makes her a little irresponsible, too, don't you think? To risk Angel's state of mind, and put in risk herself, Nadira and all the others, since an evil Angel (even not being Angelus) would be a very powerful adversary.
 
For several issues she had been pushing Angel to go and rescue Nadira at any cost - even with Angel doubting himself about being able to resist Archaeus. They fought over it, and finally Angel had to agree with Faith's plan. I agree that Angel was almost paralyzed by fear, so to speak, but Faith did not think much of the consequences - IF her plan had not worked. She wanted results, she wanted Nadira rescued ASAP.
 
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thetopher

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Now you are sounding like a Spuffy girly fan - “Dylan doesn't exist! She is a non character! She cannot be canon! ”
Have you read that monstrosity that JM created? It's horrific, and I, as a detester of all things Spuffy, feel sorry that JM thought fit to sabotage his own character just so he can shoehorn a character into his story that's meant to be like his wife. :rolleyes:
Probably he didn't like the fact that Spike had single-mindedly been pining after Buffy for so long that he thought it damaged the character.

Dylan's canon, all right, but S:ITL still isn't,
I disagree entirely, the editors are saying neither one thing or the other because they don't know. Because Joss signed off on it and now they're stuck with it- that's why they won't 'clarify'. When did Spike meet Dylan if not then?
Unfortunately it's canon and now we know that Spike went insane because of the First, nothing to do with his soul.
Also the 'you're the only one for me, Buffy' line through all of s7 turned out to be a bit of a lie as well.

Faith didn't see Angel's struggle in San Francisco, she didn't see Spike's either, she just wanted to believe that Angel would prevail once more against Archaeus; she desperately needed to rescue Nadira, because she feels responsible for her. I get that; but it makes her a little irresponsible, too, don't you think? To risk Angel's state of mind, and put in risk herself, Nadira and all the others, since an evil Angel (even not being Angelus) would be a very powerful adversary.
We can assume that Angel told Faith all about his encounter with Archeaus. Also he's a grown ass-vampire man, and can make his own descisions about himself. Unlike Spike and Buffy- this vampire has a spine when it comes to their equal partnership and does what he wants, as well as listening to her advice.
Did Faith force him? No, Angel made a choice to rescue Nadira- somebody who'd helped him out an awful lot in the past. An ally, somebody he'd wronged in the past. Angel had his own motivations completly separate from Faith.

Worst case? Faith has kicked Angelus' ass before (whilst injured and on drugs) I bet she could handle him again if need be.

For several issues she had been pushing Angel to go and rescue Nadira at any cost - even with Angel doubting himself about being able to resist Archaeus. They fought over it, and finally Angel had to agree with Faith's plan.
Wait a sec, doesn't Archeaus want Nadira for himself? Didn't he have Dru plus minions capture her? Wasn't she like a key part of his plan? Oh, yeah she was!
So maybe its a good idea for the good guys to deprive the Bad guys of something they want, yeah?
I mean, of course Faith wanted Nadira rescued for personal reasons but also professional ones too. Handy that.
 

gite63

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as a detester of all things Spuffy
So, you keep saying that BtVS Season Ten is just garbage because you are "a detester of all things Spuffy". Your words, not mine... :D

I disagree entirely, the editors are saying neither one thing or the other because they don't know.
OK. You are saying Spike: Into the Light is canon, then it certainly is.

Also he's a grown ass-vampire man, and can make his own descisions about himself.
Yeah. Twilight, remember?

Angel isn't what he used to be anymore; if memory serves, he was rescued by Amy in the beginning of this season from a bunch of vampires, and later he took a beating from Amy and had to be rescued by Nadira. I get that he was insecure about going to face Archaeus, and he needs Faith and the others, but Faith's reason to rush him wasn't about the mission only.

In issue #20, Faith says that she feels responsible for Nadira because she wasn't for her when she left Magic Town, and starts pushing Angel to go rescue her immediately, without thinking through. In issue #21, they fought over it, and Angel finally capitulates to Faith's plan “let's go and see what happens.”

Wait a sec, doesn't Archeaus want Nadira for himself? Didn't he have Dru plus minions capture her? Wasn't she like a key part of his plan? Oh, yeah she was!
So maybe its a good idea for the good guys to deprive the Bad guys of something they want, yeah?
I wasn't talking about that, because this is obvious and of course Nadira had to be rescued sooner or later; I was talking about Faith and her impulsiveness.

Worst case? Faith has kicked Angelus' ass before (whilst injured and on drugs) I bet she could handle him again if need be.
She should have killed Dru, then...
 

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Worst case? Faith has kicked Angelus' ass before (whilst injured and on drugs) I bet she could handle him again if need be.
That was more like "tricked" his ass that "kicked" it, and it came pretty close to killing her when she did it. Faith, in Season 4 of "Angel," was fresh out of prison, where the most dangerous thing she ever had ti fight was some fellow inmate. I'm not saying that she had completely lost her edge, but she was obviously, and quite understandably, out of practice in the serious game of Slaying, and those vampires that Wes sicced her on quite obviously weren't top notch fighters. Beating them proved that she still had the skills, not that she was in any way back in true Slayer fighting form.

By Season 10, back in top form, maybe Faith could take Angel in a stand up, toe to toe fight, but it isn't as definite a thing as you seem to imply. You're talking about two of the four most powerful fighters in the Buffyverse here, and no one of them outclasses any of the other three by so much that the winner of any sort of fight would be a foregone conclusion. Also, just because Faith beat Angelus in Season 5, doesn't mean that she can beat him in Season 10, especially when her blood isn't pumped up with the vampire equivalent of LSD.
 

thetopher

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So, you keep saying that BtVS Season Ten is just garbage because you are "a detester of all things Spuffy".
Read my reviews of those issues and you'll see my words about Buffy and Spike.

It's main problem it that its boring. And I'm not the only one who thinks so.
You know who dislikes this plot-line the most, according to a lot of the comics boards? Spuffy's! :p
A whole lot of them hate the way these two are being written. Boring, passionless, domestic, the 'new Briley'. They also hate the way the whole relationship is being couched in 'so these two are going to break up soon' in every single issue (almost).

OK. You are saying Spike: Into the Light is canon, then it certainly is.
And you can't say it isn't, because Joss signed off on it, and JM wrote it. As I recall Joss's name is in the credits of the book. The editors can't dismiss it having never have happened.
Pus, again I'll ask, if not from that graphic novel, where does Dylan come from then? What is she referring to in the most recent issue of Buffy if not first her meeting with William. About how she reacted badly to him being a vampire? All that happened in S:ITL. That's not a coincidence. :D
Sorry, deal with it.

Yeah. Twilight, remember?
Not really in the same league is it? Angel saw a screwed up future and listened to Whistler anf then was possessed by a universe. That's exactly the reason that Angel needs somebody to ground him, whether its Cordy or Faith or whoever.
He still gets to risk his own life if he chooses to. To decide chancing resisting Archeaus when he has before. And that's the key, he'd beaten him once, was prepared, and so beat him again.
Difference between a stupid risk and a calculated one.

Angel isn't what he used to be anymore; if memory serves, he was rescued by Amy in the beginning of this season from a bunch of vampires
Your memory does not serve. :p
She didn't rescue him from anybody. She scared off a demon-guy with magic bricks that knocked Angel to the ground.
Angel has gone toe to toe with some pretty powerful opponents and is still standing. Pearl, Illyria, etc.

later he took a beating from Amy and had to be rescued by Nadira.
Actually Angel brought Nadira to help him fight Amy. Angel has allies, see? Doesn't make him weak, makes him smart.

I get that he was insecure about going to face Archaeus, and he needs Faith and the others, but Faith's reason to rush him wasn't about the mission only.
So? Are we saying that Faith is the only character that is personally invested in any sort of plot? Balony, she's the same as any other character in the Buffyverse- she's conflicted, this is where drama and interesting character dynamic come from (in theory) and so it happened to Faith.
Doesn't mean that she was wrong or that indeed, she and Angel don't balance each other out.

In issue #20, Faith says that she feels responsible for Nadira because she wasn't for her when she left Magic Town, and starts pushing Angel to go rescue her immediately, without thinking through. In issue #21, they fought over it, and Angel finally capitulates to Faith's plan “let's go and see what happens.”
We see an awful lot of talking going on within the group, not just Faith and Angel- their discussing strategy. And their plan was co-ordinated (a plan we- the reader- knew nothing about) so clearly we didn't see everything that was talked about within the group.
This is a common dramatic device used in fiction- the characters know more than the audience, such as in 'GD part 2' or 'Priveval' or 'Chosen'. The plan is the big tramatic reveal that the characters knew about ahead of time.
That's what happened here and its the same sort of risk assessment.

I wasn't talking about that
Doesn't matter. The bad guys wanted to keep Nadira, rescuing her serves a greater need, that's what matters. Who's to say that if Archeaus had been left with Nadira any longer then he might've thought about turning her? Maybe he would've risked that to have a chance at controlling the magics? Maybe waiting would've been a mistake?
I dunno, but its possible, maybe even likely.

She should have killed Dru, then
I'm sure that if Dru hadn't had that army of vampires there with her she would've so much dust. Faith had her down and on her ass and bleeding.
At least Faith had an excuse for not having the time to kill Dru. In 'Crush' Buffy just watches her wander off...

That was more like "tricked" his ass that "kicked" it, and it came pretty close to killing her when she did it.
Both actually. Angelus was bloody and bleeding on the ground after having his face bashed in. He got in a 'lucky' shot that Faith left open and so was drugged into unconsciousness and brought in by Wes.
Factor in that about 24 hours earlier Faith had almost been killed by the Beast, and I'd say that's hella impressive.

Faith, in Season 4 of "Angel," was fresh out of prison, where the most dangerous thing she ever had ti fight was some fellow inmate. I'm not saying that she had completely lost her edge, but she was obviously, and quite understandably, out of practice in the serious game of Slaying, and those vampires that Wes sicced her on quite obviously weren't top notch fighters.
You forgot easily schooling Connor (twice) and taking on The Beast. Sure she got her ass well and truly kicked, but she made about as good a showing as Angel (armed to the teeth) and the Fang Gang did in Apocalypse Nowish.
Faith was out of practice but she's still got those instincts. Plus her strength/toughness obviously hadn't diminished- judging by what we saw.

By Season 10, back in top form, maybe Faith could take Angel in a stand up, toe to toe fight, but it isn't as definite a thing as you seem to imply.
I only think that Faith's trhought processes might well be along those lines. I think she's confident that she could take out Angelus, especially since Angel would be inside all the while, resisting Archeaus' influence and therefore affecting Angelus' abilities fighting skill (just like what happened with Spike and Buffy in SF).
 

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@thetopher "This is a common dramatic device used in fiction- the characters know more than the audience, such as in 'GD part 2' or 'Priveval' or 'Chosen'." You forgot the best example Showtime.
 
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point. :)

gite63

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Read my reviews of those issues and you'll see my words about Buffy and Spike.

It's main problem it that its boring. And I'm not the only one who thinks so.
You know who dislikes this plot-line the most, according to a lot of the comics boards? Spuffy's! :p
A whole lot of them hate the way these two are being written. Boring, passionless, domestic, the 'new Briley'. They also hate the way the whole relationship is being couched in 'so these two are going to break up soon' in every single issue (almost).
Now, none of that, none of that. You've admitted you are a detester. From the verb detest? Which means dislike intensely? Whose synonym is hate?

I recall Joss's name is in the credits of the book.
No, it isn't...

We see an awful lot of talking going on within the group, not just Faith and Angel- their discussing strategy. And their plan was co-ordinated (a plan we- the reader- knew nothing about) so clearly we didn't see everything that was talked about within the group.
This is a common dramatic device used in fiction- the characters know more than the audience, such as in 'GD part 2' or 'Priveval' or 'Chosen'. The plan is the big tramatic reveal that the characters knew about ahead of time.
I agree, but this coming from you who always say that if "we don't see on screen, it didn't happen" it's a bit curious.

Koh said he can't make decisions. The ones who make decisions are Angel and Faith. The plan seemed what we got: Angel didn't want to go, Faith pushed him, and he finally caved in. He would fake to trick Archaeus, while she would stall Dru. Once Nadira was rescued, Angel would text that they could retreat. I would like to know what the the plan was if Angel hadn't resisted to Archaeus. Otherwise, it was risky to go into Archaeus's lair just with "hope".
 
Now, the apparently Faith's recklessness is due to the poor writing on this issue. It was so obvious that Angel was faking, that at first I didn't want to believe, but alas... he was faking, and we had some dusting of minions, and some Dru beating, and that's it. Not interesting at all, in contrast with the one that came before.
 
Of course, they could "call" Illyria - although we know that Fred doesn't feel good allowing that, but she could take one for the team...
 
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thetopher

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Now, none of that, none of that. You've admitted you are a detester.
Yes, I've always said that I hated Spuffy. I've made no secret of that fact.
You however, acussed me of being a Bangel and a Spike-hater in your very first post to me. You were wrong.

No, it isn't...
Oh, well Joss still signed off on it. Dylan is there interacting with Spike- the story is canon, the editors just can't decide 'where' it is canon because it makes no real sense anywhere.
But the best place it fits is, as JM has said, when Spike has first got his soul and is struggling with his conscience, looking for a...dear god, a new pair of boots that he can't bear to steal. o_O
Explains how he kept his hair all bleached when he was supposedly crazy-insane. Also how he got back from Africa after getting his soul.

I agree, but this coming from you who always say that if "we don't see on screen, it didn't happen" it's a bit curious.
:rolleyes:
See above. 'Dramatic. Device' used in telling stories- I do not deny 'onscreen' that what has later shown to have happened.
It is clear that they had some sort of co-ordinated plan, therefore they must've co-ordinated. That's logic.

Now, the apparently Faith's recklessness is due to the poor writing on this issue. It was so obvious that Angel was faking, that at first I didn't want to believe, but alas... he was faking, and we had some dusting of minions, and some Dru beating, and that's it. Not interesting at all, in contrast with the one that came before.
We get it, you don't like the storyline (you must be a Fangel-hater then...sarc/) but it does make a sort of sense- dramatically speaking.
Hey, I saw it coming too and said as much.
 
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