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Discussion of Angel & Faith 9.06 "Daddy Issues part 1"-Released 01/25/12 (Dark Horse)

Abby27

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Where is the Wiki taking that date from, though? I don't recall seeing it anywhere. The timeline does seem a bit off, though. i feel like Giles is a bit younger than they claim.

Here it is! http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Rupert_Giles

On the biography section it says 1954, although, they don't have a specific reference for the date, I assumed they got it out of some Buffy comic. But yea, even if the year isn't exact, in the show they tried to make 16 year old Giles be Ripper, which is probably the mistake they made. I think besides that reference in Band Candy, Giles' "Ripper days" have been consistently placed in his early 20's.
 

Leeson

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You are missing the point that AtF post 17 was officially not canon. Joss run ended at #17 ~ 30-35 K . Everything IDW produced after that was IDW witout Joss- of course it lost readership.

I didn't miss that point, you never said you were speaking only about Joss' run. You said 'AtF' which, in terminology, is Angel: After the Fall, not Angel: After the Fall When Joss Was There. In that case, they still lost 31 per cent of their initial readership.

Well, sorry, I thought that if you go to the boards you kind of sort of want-expect spoilers? Will do next time.

Nope. I come to the boards to talk about Buffy and Angel. And on a board with spoiler tags, I don't expect spoilers.

On the biography section it says 1954, although, they don't have a specific reference for the date, I assumed they got it out of some Buffy comic.

See, though, I can't remember a canon reference for it. I'm wondering if I missed it somewhere. It will bother me, now.

I really am excited about what this might bring re: Giles' past and hope to see a young Ethan Rayne, if only a little.
 

ladydorotea

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I didn't miss that point, you never said you were speaking only about Joss' run. You said 'AtF' which, in terminology, is Angel: After the Fall, not Angel: After the Fall When Joss Was There. In that case, they still lost 31 per cent of their initial readership.

Everything post issue 17 is named Angel: Aftermath. Angel After the Fall only applies to issues 1 through 17. I thought you knew. And 18K is well below 70% of what AtF was.

I am not trying to prove that A&F is not worthy of reading, only that the core readership of AtS is lost and likely not coming back. What remains is the less than half of what used to be joined BtVS/AtS comic audience. This is not sustainable for a long run - but likely Joss plans to mix and match the characters between many series and minis both this season and the next. At least Allie (thankfully) said that Angel might not stay in London post S9.
 

Anya2012

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I have yet to read the issue, but I read the synopsis and the previews on the website. That one guy in the flashback, Giles calls him Phillip. I got confused because in the story, that kid Phillip dies. But one of Giles' Ripper buddies was named Phillip Henry. He was the one that Eyghon/Deirdre killed at the beginning of The Dark Age. They must just be using the name Phillip twice.

I am very excited to see more of Giles' past!

There was another watcher named Phillip in season 5, Checkpoint. I think they just use the name Phillip alot.
 

VisionGirl

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There was another watcher named Phillip in season 5, Checkpoint. I think they just use the name Phillip alot.

Ah, maybe that's what I was thinking of when I was trying to recall the watcher who was killed by the Bringers in season 7.

I do agree that Giles' chronology seems a bit confusing.

If they show a young Ethan Rayne, I would be a very happy girl! I just re-watched A New Man and feel that Ethan was an excellent character & was underused.
 

EVIL UU

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[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION]
But yeah , she is very pretty this season and male readership likes long legged chicks who kick ass.

And female readership doesn't like long legged chicks who kick ass?

Your sexist generalization is really uncool. Also, the artist who draws those "very pretty long legged chicks" is a woman and her style is actually anatomically correct.
 

Abby27

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See, though, I can't remember a canon reference for it. I'm wondering if I missed it somewhere. It will bother me, now.

Right. I'm wondering what's considered canon and what's not.

I do know that in The Dark Age, Giles says, "I was 21" when referring to his Ripper days. It looks like A&F 9.06 and The Dark Age are in agreement with each other, but not Band Candy.
 

Icarium

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Right. I'm wondering what's considered canon and what's not.

I do know that in The Dark Age, Giles says, "I was 21" when referring to his Ripper days. It looks like A&F 9.06 and The Dark Age are in agreement with each other, but not Band Candy.

Band Candy doesn't tell us anything. Everyone behaved like irresponsible teenagers in it, not just those who were actually wild as teenagers.

It could be the he had 2 rebellious phases

I think that's what Gage said in his twitter posts and it's what I thought when I read the issue. Giles's Ripper phase was when he already in college, we don't need a timeline to get that these must be two different occasions.
 

cordangel

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ladydorotea wrote:
See, this is the major problem with entire DH A&F run for me. Ressing Ripper series is a great idea - but Angel's been torn out of LA and thrown into London just because they want to utilize some of Joss' old plots for Giles does not work well for me, despite the art getting generally better and CG's being great Angel's fan. Angel still feels like a different character with different objective ( that I do not fully comprehend ) to me.

Totally agree. I hate HATE that they erased the entire AtS, plotline, characters, location and, obviously, Angel himself. He needed a new beginning because of :-1) the butchery Joss made of amazing and wonderful characters like (in order) Doyle, Cordelia, Fred and Wesley. For what? Making this series different from BtVS, with a real carnage of Angel's friends, underlining his failure in saving his friends? -2) the destruction of Angel himself in that crazy crap that was s8 BtVS...with the only purpose of a plot device, a shocking twisted turn of events. Adding Giles, as in per se, brilliant, it clearly proves that, not knowing how to write Angel, Joss needed to support a character he has never really understood with old projects of him, such a Ripper spin off. (AtS was run by Greenwalt and Minear).

"DH has missed the fact that many of the Angel series fans are not much into Buffy and characters like Giles and Faith are not interesting for them. Joss basically wanted A&F to be a book that would fit into BtVS S9 story as a part of it - but many were so used to AtF own cast that it is hard for them to accept Buffy cast in Angel's series.

True. Many of Angel's fans, even enjoying BtVS, are ANGEL's fans and don't care much about the other series and don't like the two world connected too much, especially when THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS BtVS and everything related to AtS can be sacrificed at this altar.

The writers should have recognized that ANGEL run for five years and have had its own comics. That means ANGEL has its own fan base, who deserves as much consideration as the BUFFY one. However, looking at how badly Angel was treated in BUFFY s8 (out of his own canon!) and at this new comic, that he has to share with another character, albeit interesting and fascinating...well, it really sounds offensive (again!) for many of us.
 
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Hale Caesar
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ladydorotea

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And female readership doesn't like long legged chicks who kick ass?

I am female and normally prefer brainy chicks who kick ass - regardless of the length of their lower appendages or size of their mammaries. Meaning that I would take River, Kaylee, Willow or Fred any time over Faith , and especially Faith circa S9. And I don't see anything offensive in acknowledging that males of our shared species do have certain drives built in by momma Nature - denying that is kind of hypocritical.

PS

DH is not the worst.

Check out these babes.

http://sciencefiction.com/2012/01/01/fashion-and-female-heroes-fantasy-or-objectivity/

http://io9.com/5875331/a-ton-of-disney-princesses-drawn-in-the-comic-book-style
 

Buffy Summers

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None of this matters as the 'comics' arent real. They aint the verse.

This is a discussion thread for the latest issue - if you don't want to discuss it, please stay out of it. Posting things like this add nothing to the discussion. If you want to start a thread about whether comics are canon (though there probably is one already) please feel free. Otherwise, let those who want to discuss this issue do it please.

:)
 
VisionGirl
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VisionGirl

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Totally agree. I hate HATE that they erased the entire AtS, plotline, characters, location and, obviously, Angel himself. He needed a new beginning because of :-1) the butchery Joss made of amazing and wonderful characters like (in order) Doyle, Cordelia, Fred and Wesley. For what? Making this series different from BtVS, with a real carnage of Angel's friends, underlining his failure in saving his friends? -2) the destruction of Angel himself in that crazy crap that was s8 BtVS...with the only purpose of a plot device, a shocking twisted turn of events. Adding Giles, as in per se, brilliant, it clearly proves that, not knowing how to write Angel, Joss needed to support a character he has never really understood with old projects of him, such a Ripper spin off. (AtS was run by Greenwalt and Minear).

Many of Angel's fans, even enjoying BtVS, are ANGEL's fans and don't care much about the other series and don't like the two world connected too much, especially when THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS BtVS and everything related to AtS can be sacrificed at this altar.

The writers should have recognized that ANGEL run for five years and have had its own comics. That means ANGEL has its own fan base, who deserves as much consideration as the BUFFY one. However, looking at how badly Angel was treated in BUFFY s8 (out of his own canon!) and at this new comic, that he has to share with another character, albeit interesting and fascinating...well, it really sounds offensive (again!) for many of us.
I really agree with a lot of this. I feel like I'll be repeating myself if I say it all again lol. I do feel like Angel & Faith is a step in the right direction, but for we Angel fans, it's not enough...yet. Joss himself has stated that he never "got" Angel as a character. I really, really wish he would've recruited some of either the writers of the show or the IDW comics to help him with Angel's character at DH. At least Gage is trying, and has some respect for the character, and I am glad of that.

Oh my no, DH is far from the worst, at least in the Buffy comics. I felt that IDW was worse IMO. Especially that god-awful Aftermath arc (of which I am specifically speaking of Kelly Armstrong's 5-issue stint). I mean, for frak's sake they had crotch shots in those issues!!!

I do think things are changing, or at least it's being talked about a lot lately. (There was a recent uproar over a female character breastfeeding on the cover of a comic lately. Really?! That's what breasts are for!!). And I like to think that the Buffy comics are helping. Faith has always been a bosom-y character, Buffy notsomuch. The comics medium does give the artists a little more leeway, so Buffy has been appearing more endowed. But in general it's nothing like the rest of the industry.
 

cordangel

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Vision Girl wrote:
I do feel like Angel & Faith is a step in the right direction, but for we Angel fans, it's not enough...yet. Joss himself has stated that he never "got" Angel as a character. I really, really wish he would've recruited some of either the writers of the show or the IDW comics to help him with Angel's character at DH. At least Gage is trying, and has some respect for the character, and I am glad of that.

I agree with you. Let's hope Joss can read what we've been posting for months and truly understand us and our bitterness. Maybe he can do something useful for ANGEL (the character, the series, the comics and the fans) and not only for his avatar (Buffy) and her world.

" At least Gage is trying, and has some respect for the character, and I am glad of that."

So am I.
 

Abby27

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Band Candy doesn't tell us anything. Everyone behaved like irresponsible teenagers in it, not just those who were actually wild as teenagers.

I think that's what Gage said in his twitter posts and it's what I thought when I read the issue. Giles's Ripper phase was when he already in college, we don't need a timeline to get that these must be two different occasions.

Right. I think the confusion was caused by Buffy's line in Band Candy, "Giles at 16? More like 'bad magick hates the world ticking time bomb guy.'" From the set up, it seems like they are insinuating that when Giles was 16, he was already in his Ripper phase. But yes, like you said, while I think it's fair to question the timeline a little bit to clear things up, but there is nothing stopping Giles having 2 badass phases.

In fact, I welcome it :p
 

Hale Caesar

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ladydorotea wrote:
See, this is the major problem with entire DH A&F run for me. Ressing Ripper series is a great idea - but Angel's been torn out of LA and thrown into London just because they want to utilize some of Joss' old plots for Giles does not work well for me, despite the art getting generally better and CG's being great Angel's fan. Angel still feels like a different character with different objective ( that I do not fully comprehend ) to me.

Totally agree. I hate HATE that they erased the entire AtS, plotline, characters, location and, obviously, Angel himself. He needed a new beginning because of :-1) the butchery Joss made of amazing and wonderful characters like (in order) Doyle, Cordelia, Fred and Wesley. For what? Making this series different from BtVS, with a real carnage of Angel's friends, underlining his failure in saving his friends? -2) the destruction of Angel himself in that crazy crap that was s8 BtVS...with the only purpose of a plot device, a shocking twisted turn of events. Adding Giles, as in per se, brilliant, it clearly proves that, not knowing how to write Angel, Joss needed to support a character he has never really understood with old projects of him, such a Ripper spin off. (AtS was run by Greenwalt and Minear).

"DH has missed the fact that many of the Angel series fans are not much into Buffy and characters like Giles and Faith are not interesting for them. Joss basically wanted A&F to be a book that would fit into BtVS S9 story as a part of it - but many were so used to AtF own cast that it is hard for them to accept Buffy cast in Angel's series.

True. Many of Angel's fans, even enjoying BtVS, are ANGEL's fans and don't care much about the other series and don't like the two world connected too much, especially when THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS BtVS and everything related to AtS can be sacrificed at this altar.

The writers should have recognized that ANGEL run for five years and have had its own comics. That means ANGEL has its own fan base, who deserves as much consideration as the BUFFY one. However, looking at how badly Angel was treated in BUFFY s8 (out of his own canon!) and at this new comic, that he has to share with another character, albeit interesting and fascinating...well, it really sounds offensive (again!) for many of us.

I love this post.

I feel Angel is getting treated like some kind of supporting character. Darkhorse needs to realize that Angel's show ran for 5 seasons. It established its own mythology, characters and stories...and none of it gets recognized. I want to know what Gunn is doing. I want to know where Illyria is. Where is Connor?
 

Buffy Summers

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lol I don't terribly care where Connor, Gunn or Illyria are. In my opinion, focusing on Angel & Faith is the right way to start this thing off, rather than overloading us with one shots on every character that was on Angel.
 
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