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Discussion of Buffy 10.09 "Return to Sunnydale, Part II" - Released 11/19/14 (Dark Horse)

thetopher

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Sineya
Everything is on par with her comic self, cheerfully joking about the death of a HS friend, galloping around declaring the day she caused thousands of deaths the best day ever, telling Billy it's selfish to have a slaying partner who's a romantic interest, telling Andrew she 'gets' why he did the bodyswap to begin with. All stupid, illogical, hypocritical, completely OOC things... but all of a sudden she's talking about Spike and it's a character-smasher.
I'm not really bothered about what Buffy said about Cordelia when she thought she was dreaming, or any of the crap she came out with in S9-theres plenty to loathe about S9.

But at the very start of season 10 we saw that Buffy's mindset was in a fairly stable, mature place. It felt like a freshh start for all the characters. Buffy has all her friends around her, her sister back, her stalker...was being a little bit less stalker-like, and then she gets Giles back from the dead.

So where the hell is this emotional amnesia coming from? It's so f***ing disappointing because really CG can write much better than this and has written more complex characters way more successfully.
He had to write Angel AFTER the whole Twilight arc, and he did pretty well considering, by going back to the basics of the character. And he nailed a lot of Faith's angst/characteristics.

And now he's tried to do the same with Buffy and has basically missed the mark. Buffy comes across as shallow, hypocritical and DUMB. I mean, she can be all of those things, but all at once in such a short space of time? That's not a mistake, that's intent.

I think its meant to highlight the Spuffy stuff and white-wash a lot of it to clear the way for the upcoming romance arc. They just want to tidy all these bothersome questions away in a really obvious, insultingly clumsy way so they can get to the 'good' stuff.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was more pandering to a certain fanbase at the cost of good story or characterisation, because we never got this crap in A&F S9- and it was all the better for it.

This is what gets me the most. I mean, it's not season 2 for goodness' sake and Buffy's not a confused teenager any more! She's been hunting vampires for almost fifteen years, she was bitten by vampires, was with vampires, she even was a vampire! She knows more about vamps than just about anybody else. And she still contradicts herself with the he and you nonsense. That's brainless to an unbelievable degree. Buffy's many things but she's not...well, OK, she's not that stupid.
Absolutely this.
Where's the maturity, the clear-headed insight? Buffy isn't a school girl anymore, she's an adult. She's done (and experienced) too much to throw around all this 'he...you' confusion. If anybody should know the difference between pre and post-soul Spike it SHOULD be her, but she doesn't seem to be able to.
That doesn't sound like Buffy, it sounds like a writer who doesn't know the difference either.
 

Silverspike

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"I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was more pandering to a certain fanbase at the cost of good story or characterisation, because we never got this crap in A&F S9- and it was all the better for it."

Cos I'm guessing of course folks wouldn't be kicking off like this If It had been reguarding Buffy and Anegl, eh? :D

"I think its meant to highlight the Spuffy stuff and white-wash a lot of it to clear the way for the upcoming romance arc. They just want to tidy all these bothersome questions away in a really obvious, insultingly clumsy way so they can get to the 'good' stuff."

Hello? Have you not watched this show before?? I mean dear god, you must know they're never going to do there. They're just shipper baiting and doing a bloody good job of it too judging by all the comments on here and elsewhere.

Hilarious! :D
 

janas

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Nothing to do! Buffy here is patently OCC. Gage does nothing but repeat how the characters have grown up and he made to say this, over and over again, to the characters themselves, who like to remind us how much they've grown. Sorry to say it, but Gage is completely missing the point here. And it's strange, because I think that, in the season nine he wrote Faith very well. Yes, ok a few times he was slipping in Mary Sue area, but for the most part, Faith was recognizable, I think Gage has done a good job with her. But not with Buffy. Where are her ironic remarks? Her stinging sarcasm against the big bad?

Andrew, can you promise me that from now on you will be a good guy?
Yes, I swear!
Oh Andrew, it's ok, everything is okay. Come here and give me a big hug.


To me, this isn't Buffy.
 

thetopher

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Cos I'm guessing of course folks wouldn't be kicking off like this If It had been reguarding Buffy and Anegl, eh?
Oh, for f***'s sake...

This ISN'T about Angel or Spike- this is about BUFFY and her completely white-washing canon-history. What she says about unsouled Spike is PATENTLY false, and it insults the fans to pretend otherwise.

I would react the same if at any time during S9 they'd white-washed it so that Buffy had tried to get back together with Angel- or said something patently false ABOUT ANGEL. Like say: ''You're in no way to blame for what happened during the whole Twilight thing Angel. And really Twilight wasn't so bad, at least not compared to my Dad...'

This is basically the same thing, taking something morally murky and just going 'screw it, Buffy has always trusted unsoulled Spike and always knew he was good.'
*vomits*

I mean, if its possible they're actually trying to make this ship even duller that it has been before.

Hello? Have you not watched this show before?? I mean dear god, you must know they're never going to do there. They're just shipper baiting and doing a bloody good job of it too judging by all the comments on here and elsewhere.
Yes, of course they won't get together, that's not really the point. The damage will have been done anyway.
Just like it was with Twilight. Just like it was done with the crappy pregnancy/abortion plotline, they will sacrifice good/realistic characterisation for poor plotting or shipper-bait.
The writers have done this before but I was hoping for something more from Christos Gage and this season, especially with what we saw from A&F.

But it seems that some shippers must be pandered to.
And yes, I have seen the pathetic screeching on some of the other boards from Spuffy shippers as they lap up the cover art, it's just sad.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
janas
janas
You should take a tour on Twitter and you'd can see how "certain" fans have made peace with DH and CG. Now they are all hugs and kisses. LOL

Silverspike

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"And yes, I have seen the pathetic screeching on some of the other boards from Spuffy shippers as they lap up the cover art, it's just sad."

Just as I've seen the same old suspects on another board getting their collective knickers in yet another twist just because someone other then Bangel fans gets a brief go on the shipper merry go round.

Pathetic.
 

thetopher

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Just as I've seen the same old suspects on another board getting their collective knickers in yet another twist just because some other then bloody Bangel gets a brief go on the shipper merry go round.
HA!

That really is rich, 'a brief go'...Spuffy has been the ONLY ship of note in S9 (where we had arcs devoted to them both) and now again in S10 we've had several scenes redreading the same old Spuffy stuff from S6 onwards, with yet more ahead. And every other alternate cover is a Spike/Spuffy one.

Really, its just base hypocracy to accuse Bangels of somehow hogging the ship spotlight.
 

NothingVentured

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291
I'm not really bothered about what Buffy said about Cordelia when she thought she was dreaming, or any of the crap she came out with in S9-theres plenty to loathe about S9.

But at the very start of season 10 we saw that Buffy's mindset was in a fairly stable, mature place. It felt like a freshh start for all the characters. Buffy has all her friends around her, her sister back, her stalker...was being a little bit less stalker-like, and then she gets Giles back from the dead.

So where the hell is this emotional amnesia coming from? It's so f***ing disappointing because really CG can write much better than this and has written more complex characters way more successfully.
He had to write Angel AFTER the whole Twilight arc, and he did pretty well considering, by going back to the basics of the character. And he nailed a lot of Faith's angst/characteristics.

And now he's tried to do the same with Buffy and has basically missed the mark. Buffy comes across as shallow, hypocritical and DUMB. I mean, she can be all of those things, but all at once in such a short space of time? That's not a mistake, that's intent.

I think its meant to highlight the Spuffy stuff and white-wash a lot of it to clear the way for the upcoming romance arc. They just want to tidy all these bothersome questions away in a really obvious, insultingly clumsy way so they can get to the 'good' stuff.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was more pandering to a certain fanbase at the cost of good story or characterisation, because we never got this crap in A&F S9- and it was all the better for it.



Absolutely this.
Where's the maturity, the clear-headed insight? Buffy isn't a school girl anymore, she's an adult. She's done (and experienced) too much to throw around all this 'he...you' confusion. If anybody should know the difference between pre and post-soul Spike it SHOULD be her, but she doesn't seem to be able to.
That doesn't sound like Buffy, it sounds like a writer who doesn't know the difference either.
Gage, the writer, SAID that. It was not demonstrated, so even by your own standard it doesn't hold up. Just because it never bothered YOU doesn't mean it made sense.

You're making me laugh with the whitewashing comment. S9 was all about whitewashing Angel and Faith toddling along under his bootheels. "Is Angel doing the right thing? I don't know, but I'll be with him anyway!" Suddenly Angel was going to save people--never mentioned in S8 at all. Oh, wait, that's 'cause Buffy wouldn't shut up and let him talk. Willow, her best friend, agrees. No whitewashing there. Instead of killing Giles, it turned out Angel saved him from the clutches of Eyghon! No whitewashing there. Suddenly Willow didn't kill Rack, either; no, no whitewashing there. Gage should start his own service for this, I think.

Now, of course, it's a problem. Can't be having whitewashing or the dumbing down of Buffy in the comic books! This is a disgrace! *eyeroll* Buffy has been written OOC from the beginning for the very specific plot-first purpose of learning lessons (not that she ever does 'cause then they'd have to think of something new). And I agree it's what's happening here, most likely.

My argument is it's nothing new. And hasn't been for a long, long while. It's not a new problem.
 

thetopher

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You're making me laugh with the whitewashing comment. S9 was all about whitewashing Angel and Faith toddling along under his bootheels. "Is Angel doing the right thing? I don't know, but I'll be with him anyway!"
If you actually read the plotline you'd realise that you're VASTLY oversimplifying both the main plotline and Faith's thought processes. I've heard the 'Faith is just Angel's apologist' line before, it's really nothing new, and it's utter Spike-fanboy nonsense.
Faith calls Angel out of some of the key stuff very early on (when she finds out about Pearl and Nash- which actually makes Twilight's crimes WORSE not better) and is troubled/conflicted throughout their journey precisely because she herself wants Giles back if its at all possible.

Faith owes Angel a lot, so yes, she has a somewhat distorted outlook when it comes to him. This absolutely fits her personality from the tv series, it doesn't upend canon of whatever.

Suddenly Angel was going to save people--never mentioned in S8 at all.
To be fair it doesn't contradict anything we are told or shown, it just adds details. Very different from Buffy's utterances that were patently false no matter which way you turn it.

Oh, wait, that's 'cause Buffy wouldn't shut up and let him talk.
That one a one-line stupid joke that didn't work. Also I would point out that again it doesn't contradict actual events, only adds detail to them.

Willow, her best friend, agrees.
Actually she didn't, she just agreed that Buffy sometimes didn't shut up. She still hasn't forgiven Angel for his actions, even if they did part on better terms.

Instead of killing Giles, it turned out Angel saved him from the clutches of Eyghon!
But Twilight still did kill Giles, that's still fact. It's just Angel managed to bring him back, it doesn't undo what he did because Giles has been drastically changed.

Btw- bringing in Eyghon was really a pretty good plot twist that built on what was shown of the show way back in S2- doesn't contradict, just adds detail. It's skilled writing, not a single white-washing conversation. There is a difference.

Angel isn't absolved from the bad he's done just because managed to undo one bad thing.

Suddenly Willow didn't kill Rack, either; no, no whitewashing there.
I genuinly don't know what you're talking about here. Is Rack alive? When did this happen? Was this something CG did specifically.
Anyway by this logic Joss Whedon white-washed Willow first because Warren wasn't dead, Amy saved him.

I don't agree with this development but at least the intent to kill was still there- Willow still tried to kill these people, she just failed. It doesn't somehow make her more good, just incompotent as a villain.

Gage should start his own service for this, I think.
Trying to undo the mess of Twilight is one-thing. That plot arc was a big shit-pile that CG was left to untangle. And I don't think anybody thinks 'oh, Angel wasn't so bad then' by the end.
Angel has always been about atonement for the evils he's commited, not denying they happened or not caring.

The whole Spike thing is just ham-fisted nonsense that really can't be defended- despite your valiant efforts to drag Angel into it.

Now, of course, it's a problem. Can't be having whitewashing or the dumbing down of Buffy in the comic books! This is a disgrace!
As I've already stated, I had higher hopes for S10 than S9. I've never claimed that the Buffy comics were perfect, or that some of the story-lines weren't problematic.

And its one thing to clear up some (unclear) plot hangups from the end of S8, it's another to rewrite the show and say that pre-soul Spike 'wasn't that bad'.

*sigh* But it seems to me that people are trying to say that all this doesn't matter because it's been done before (weak defense) or worse by bringing ANGEL into it. (An old and tired tactic)

Whatever, Buffy's speechifying this issue about bad, old Spike and the Andrew forgivness thing at the end were pure garbage.

Yep, I was right the first time. Pathetic....
Nice comeback, not at all lame or petty. ;)
 

janas

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I think Gage has done a good job with A&F. Certainly not everything was perfect, but overall a lot of fans liked more A&F than Buffy of Andrew Chambliss. Each of us is entitled to their own opinion and about the Angel's whitewashing, many have written streams of words in many threads here and on other forums, but none of the Angel's fans said that, those who expressed his opinion was an Angel hater. It seems instead that Spike can't be criticized because it immediately jumps out the conspiracy theory of the usual Spike haters. And the funny thing is that no one here is saying anything negative about Spike.
And also, Gage has nothing to do with Willow and Rack. It's not he who wrote Willow - Wonderland, that in my opinion, it was a pearls of season nine.
 
thetopher
thetopher
Oh, Rack was in Willow: Wonderland? It's the one's I haven't read all of yet.
Agreed- this isn't about Spike hate. What was done with him in this issue was fine, imo. :)

NothingVentured

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If you actually read the plotline you'd realise that you're VASTLY oversimplifying both the main plotline and Faith's thought processes. I've heard the 'Faith is just Angel's apologist' line before, it's really nothing new, and it's utter Spike-fanboy nonsense.
Faith calls Angel out of some of the key stuff very early on (when she finds out about Pearl and Nash- which actually makes Twilight's crimes WORSE not better) and is troubled/conflicted throughout their journey precisely because she herself wants Giles back if its at all possible.

Faith owes Angel a lot, so yes, she has a somewhat distorted outlook when it comes to him. This absolutely fits her personality from the tv series, it doesn't upend canon of whatever.



To be fair it doesn't contradict anything we are told or shown, it just adds details. Very different from Buffy's utterances that were patently false no matter which way you turn it.



That one a one-line stupid joke that didn't work. Also I would point out that again it doesn't contradict actual events, only adds detail to them.



Actually she didn't, she just agreed that Buffy sometimes didn't shut up. She still hasn't forgiven Angel for his actions, even if they did part on better terms.



But Twilight still did kill Giles, that's still fact. It's just Angel managed to bring him back, it doesn't undo what he did because Giles has been drastically changed.

Btw- bringing in Eyghon was really a pretty good plot twist that built on what was shown of the show way back in S2- doesn't contradict, just adds detail. It's skilled writing, not a single white-washing conversation. There is a difference.

Angel isn't absolved from the bad he's done just because managed to undo one bad thing.



I genuinly don't know what you're talking about here. Is Rack alive? When did this happen? Was this something CG did specifically.
Anyway by this logic Joss Whedon white-washed Willow first because Warren wasn't dead, Amy saved him.

I don't agree with this development but at least the intent to kill was still there- Willow still tried to kill these people, she just failed. It doesn't somehow make her more good, just incompotent as a villain.



Trying to undo the mess of Twilight is one-thing. That plot arc was a big shit-pile that CG was left to untangle. And I don't think anybody thinks 'oh, Angel wasn't so bad then' by the end.
Angel has always been about atonement for the evils he's commited, not denying they happened or not caring.

The whole Spike thing is just ham-fisted nonsense that really can't be defended- despite your valiant efforts to drag Angel into it.



As I've already stated, I had higher hopes for S10 than S9. I've never claimed that the Buffy comics were perfect, or that some of the story-lines weren't problematic.

And its one thing to clear up some (unclear) plot hangups from the end of S8, it's another to rewrite the show and say that pre-soul Spike 'wasn't that bad'.

*sigh* But it seems to me that people are trying to say that all this doesn't matter because it's been done before (weak defense) or worse by bringing ANGEL into it. (An old and tired tactic)

Whatever, Buffy's speechifying this issue about bad, old Spike and the Andrew forgivness thing at the end were pure garbage.



Nice comeback, not at all lame or petty. ;)
You really can't form an argument, can you? You did not rebut anything I said, only reiterated that it didn't bother you. And threw in an ad hominem because that seems to be your style. Psst, I'm not a Spike fanboy.

I didn't drag Angel into anything. YOU brought up whitewashing, which is all S9 did to Angel. Whitewashing is the commonality, not Angel, hence the Willow-reference. We never, not once see him suggest he was saving anyone. Him suddenly later saying that DOES contradict what was shown since, he you know, DIDN'T say anything about it and would have been part of his case. Oh, now the Eyghon stuff was a 'plot twist', btw. Good stuff there. Hey, read Spike being different as a plot twist, too, eh? Oh, no? Ok...

Faith following Angel around like a puppy dog? Um, yeah. That's what she did to the point it alienated the girls. Then they bring in everyone from LA to tell him how cool he is. Come on.

As for the speechifying, yeah, it's bad. I don't think I've contested that once. I just said it's part and parcel to the comic books, which you haven't disputed (because you can't) and has been prevalent in S8, S9, and S10 thus far. I mentioned plenty from S9 as well, which you ignore to support your baseless suggestion that it's an Angel issue.

Buffy's role is to spew stupid nonsense to set up plot arcs. This? No different. What Willow says doesn't make sense--it's not even correct, Buffy was gone more than a few weeks--where's the outrage over that?

It's transparent to pretend this outrage is over the writing of Buffy Summers. Your Spike hate blinds you and your disinterest in everything else but that is rather comical.
 

Taake

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Black Thorn
Every one needs to think about the tone they're using during this discussion. Please remain calm and don't make things personal.
 

thetopher

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You really can't form an argument, can you? You did not rebut anything I said, only reiterated that it didn't bother you. And threw in an ad hominem because that seems to be your style. Psst, I'm not a Spike fanboy.
Firstly, nice tone. You certainly argue like a Spike fan so forgive the confusion.

And no I'm putting youroverly simplified points into context- A&F didn't bother me because it isn't white-washing at all. CG and Joss decided after S8 to EXPLAIN THE TWILIGHT STUFF BETTER by adding more detail. They've both said this in interviews.
Of course it still bothers me that they did it in the first place- Twilight was blatent character assassination for no reason- but they didn't overwrite anything they did or contradict established history- just clarified (poorly as it turned out) some detail.

Twilight's still bad, it still happened, clarifying TwilghtAngel's bizarre motivations doesn't make it any better. So no white-washing.

Whereras Buffy contradicts herself within two issues- it's stupid, and your only defence is 'the comics are stupid', to which all I've said was 'I hoped for something better this time around'.
This apparently annoys you for some reason.

I didn't drag Angel into anything.
Actually you did- just a couple a posts ago, you were there remember?

Faith following Angel around like a puppy dog? Um, yeah.
And I disagreed by putting Faith's character/behaviour in actual context instead of oversimplifying which seems to be your style. This obviously annoyed you because it was accurate. Do try and keep up.

It's transparent to pretend this outrage is over the writing of Buffy Summers. Your Spike hate blinds you and your disinterest in everything else but that is rather comical.
And what about all the Andrew stuff which annoyed me more and has been utterly ignored by you and other Spike-defenders? What about that? Oh, I guess that's 'disinterest' then, huh? And that it discredits your line of argument.

Y'know what? Forget this- the blinkered 'You can't ever criticise Spike' arguments have now spread to other characters around him. It's getting tired, ridiculous and actually rather sad.
This is not about Spike- it never has been, it's about Buffy disregarding history and saying moronic things.

This just confirms my theory that the problem isn't really with Spike, but with his fanbase. :(
 
Silverspike
Silverspike
"This just confirms my theory that the problem isn't really with Spike, but with his fanbase."

Spike fans aren't a different breed you know. And we have as much right to voice are opinions as the next fan.

Kaleidoscope

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You know what, I cannot disagree with this. I think that it started in the show though.



This is what gets me the most. I mean, it's not season 2 for goodness' sake and Buffy's not a confused teenager any more! She's been hunting vampires for almost fifteen years, she was bitten by vampires, was with vampires, she even was a vampire! She knows more about vamps than just about anybody else. And she still contradicts herself with the he and you nonsense. That's brainless to an unbelievable degree. Buffy's many things but she's not...well, OK, she's not that stupid.



It's not to me because for Buffy, this is just another Tuesday. At this point, she's a pro, she doesn't get to panic.
Sorry, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I think that where her friends and lovers are concerned, Buffy will always hesitate because she is a loving person with an incredible capacity for forgiveness. She'll look for reasons why she should save her friends. She'll be upset, she'll think of reasons why she shouldn't kill them. I think her confusion about the whole soulless/soul issue is understandable. She's confused, I'm confused ! They aren't the same people, but they aren't different either. It's not something that's been written in stone by the writers and it gets adjusted to meet the needs of the story, but I still love Angel and Spike anyway !
 

Foxy

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Sineya
Wall of text incoming...

First of all I want to say that the art has been stunning so far, I have been admiring this artist for a long time now. The colouring is delightful and the pencilling (and inking of course) has been amazing. It is definitely an upgrade from Jeanty. Even though I liked Jeanty's art in season 8 (it was very cute and fitting the season), in season 9 it felt messy to me and I really disliked the colouring. I am happy to see that Isaacs took over, very refreshing.

All in all, I like what season 10 has been trying to do so far and the execution is pretty neat too. There is no denying that there have been flaws in the stories, but the show had that too. Every story has it. I like that for once instead of there being a big bag (for example Glory or Twilight) there are all kinds of baddies who want the Vampyr book, to rewrite the rules. It is also good to see the gang back together in their old (but different) dysfunctional ways.

My main issue is that in especially the first couple of issues Xander has been the protagonist instead of Buffy. The focus was mainly on him and I believe that has something to do with the fact that Brendon was (is?) part of the writers team. In my opinion Xander's character is very great and has developed greatly over the course of the TV series, although, sometimes in the comics I feel like we are back in season 1 with him.

I do feel that Willow has been pushed back a bit, although she got a lot of attention in #9, that was nice.

I read that people are discontent or don't understand Andrew's motives. This is my opinion and each their own, but I feel like I need to get mine out there too. Andrew is a very complex but very flawed character. Andrew has a way of telling himself that everything is fine and he lives in his own (dysfunctional) perfect world. He has a way of lying to himself to make himself feel better. He lives in his own distorted version of reality, because his own reality is not that great. He has lost his best friend (even though it was partially by his own doing), he is self-aware that he has no real use to a group of powerful people (the Scoobies), and he tried to make this better, but messed up a lot even though his intention was originally good. I am not going to discuss the entire super-villain thing (ridiculous plot IMO), all I have to say about that is Andrew just wanted to belong somewhere. The same thing with the Scoobies. He really wants to be included and is willing to go to great lengths to achieve these goals. I think that is sad. I feel bad for his character. Yes, resurrecting Tara is a part to make himself feel better, to get rid of the guilt, but it is also an attempt to really get into the group. Andrew wants to belong somewhere, but he doesn't really.... Sometimes I really feel bad for his character, yes, he can be an annoying piece of ****, but he is just very lonely and I feel for him.

I have mixed emotions about the fact that Andrew wanted to resurrect Tara. I really want Tara back. She is easily my favourite character in the show and I love her relationship with the Scoobies and Willow in particular. I always have mixed feelings about a character being resurrected, on one hand I am happy but on the other hand they are making the aftermath of the death meaningless in regards of the story. Resurrection has become a very popular trope in comics ever since Superman got first resurrected from the death (but I won babble about my nerdy ways of character death in comics ;) ). Anyway, Tara was an amazing character and she brought a stability to the Scoobies and she was great for Willow (again, my opinion) and her death was very harsh and sudden. I don't want Tara to be resurrected, because she is at peace and she has been for a very long time (time moves differently in other dimensions) and it might lead to depression if she gets pulled back into this world. And all the character development Willow has gone through by mourning over Tara will be messed up if she gets back. I do want Tara back because Willow deserves some good things in her life for once (I feel like she is kinda the scapegoat in the story). And I just really miss this character. But after this book I don't think Tara will be resurrected, but you can never know with BtVS.

What has been said is that Willow should get over Tara's death because it has been six years. I don't accept that. I think it is very realistic that Willow is still in some way grieving her lost lover. I have seen people lose their loved ones in life, I lost my little sister and grandfather at a very young age. I lost my sister 15 years ago and to this day I think of her or miss her. The grieving is never over, but gradually it will be come less obvious to yourself and others. You make peace with the loss and the person has a place in your heart. Therefore, I believe that Willow's initial reaction to hearing about Tara made her upset (because it got to her while she was off guard) and when she said she still misses her, well, I can relate to that. So, people shouldn't tell that other people (or fictional characters in this case) that they should get over their feelings or grief, because just no. There is no on or off button for that.

Willow resurrected Buffy because she made herself believe that it was the right thing to do (nobody really disagreed with her...well Giles would have). AND she was tempted to get her loved one back and to restore the gaping hole that was left when Buffy passed away. When Buffy was resurrected, Willow learnt that she shouldn't have been so casual about raising someone from the dead and realised that her actions (abuse of magic) had reactions (Buffy got horribly depressed when she came back). However, here is Willow, tempted by fate to bring back someone she loved, but she considers what it might do to the one who is being resurrected. This shows real character development and true love. Like Spike said in the previous issue you have to do what's best for them even though it's not the best thing for you. Willow disregarded her selfishness and greed, and proceeded to show how strong she really is.

There has always been a lot of dislike and bullying in fandoms, and I see it in this fanbase to. All of us want that the Buffy comics are perfect and awesome, however everyone has their different vision of how it would be ideal for them. Ideals are usually different. Not everyone agrees. This creates many disputes and dislike in the fandoms. I am getting really tired of people fighting over ships. There are people who ship other ships than you. Yeah, duh. Get over it. Even though you may not agree with this person's ship you don't have to tell them how much their opinion sucks and that they stink. Respect each other, please.

Please, be considerate, because you might hurt other people's feelings.

For the people who actually read all of this. Wow, thanks for reading that wall of text.
Foxy, out.
 

EVIL UU

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
1,755
I do want Tara back because Willow deserves some good things in her life for once
To be honest, I don't think that season 10 Willow would still want a relationship with a person like Tara. People tend to just assume that but I don't know, Willow changed a lot. There's nothing to learn from Tara anymore, nothing to gain and I can't imagine Willow accepting Tara's views on magic either.

What has been said is that Willow should get over Tara's death because it has been six years.
I think that it's just getting repetitive. Also, it's lazy. How many more Willow-heavy stories can be devoted to Tara's death? It's not interesting anymore. At some point a line needs to be drawn.

I do feel that Willow has been pushed back a bit, although she got a lot of attention in #9, that was nice.
To me Willow in season 10 feels kinda like Angel in season 3, like she should just go away already or something. Yeah, OK, she's got new rules of magic to write but I don't know, it's just more of her fixing Buffy's ( and Angel's ) mess, again, second season in a row. I don't like it - Angel's soul, Buffy's death, end of magic - Willow always takes responsibility and reverts the story to status quo so Buffy's actions have no consequences.

I really disliked the colouring
Agreed. I hated the coloring in season 9, it's a lot better now.
 

The Bronze

Rogue Demon Hunter
Joined
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Black Thorn
A lot of strong views on this topic then! I think people are getting a bit hung up on what Buffy said to Spike about not being that bad and the comparison with her dad. You need to remember that Buffy is not an objective outsider in this situation. It seems like people want Buffy to reel off some kind of detailed judgement to Spike about his past. Then with the comparison to Hank people are taking this to mean that if Buffy was a judge she'd be handing out a longer sentence to Hank than Spike for their actions.

Firstly the not that bad line to Spike makes sense if you put it into context. For us on the outside obviously Spike without a soul was that bad judged over a century or so. What Buffy is obviously referring to though is the period when Spike was chipped and "loved" her. He didn't eat her in her sleep. He protected her friends and family (mostly). He fought demons and helped in her mission. He also was capable of being there for Buffy when she needed him (outside the house when her mum was ill). Ignoring motivations for the time being, he was around for Buffy. So the not that bad comment just means that if he lost his soul Buffy would not expect him to turn around and eat her as soon as it leaves his body, she'd have time to do something. Whether that's true or not doesn't really matter, her reasoning doesn't come out of nowhere.

As for Hank, clearly Buffy isn't objective. He's her father, she desperately wants her father in her life. He committed her when she was younger and has now abandoned her. There's no contact. So yeah she's bitter. Again she's not stating as fact that he's worse than a mass murderer.
 

janas

Bangel in the soul
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I'm not sure that Buffy is referring to the period when Spike was chipped, because in Issue #08, where they started this conversation, Buffy talks about Angelus, referring to his distant past (Angelus spending a hundred years slaughtering nuns etc.)
 

gite63

Gone
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Feb 21, 2015
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Sineya
I haven't read this issue yet, but it sounds like Buffy is referring specifically and exclusively to the time from about mid Season 5 to mid Season 6, when she and Spike were actually friends.
Of course she is referring specifically and exclusively to the times Spike was there for her or Dawn, or helping the Scoobies, or saving their lives, or having sex with her (sex she missed a lot, by the way). Not that bad for a vampire without a soul.

Buffy was dead, Joyce was dead, Dawn was a teenage girl, and where was Mr. Summers?

Only Spike haters would read the dialogue and think Buffy was comparing her dad to a killer. "You killed thounsands of people, Spikey, but my dad... he is waaay worse than you because he LEFT ME ME ME". What a horrible person you are, Buffy!

They just are blinded by hate.
 
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