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Discussion of Buffy 10.13 "Love Dares You, Part III" - Released 3/18/15 (Dark Horse)

thetopher

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Yeah, this issue was okay.

I know a lot of it wasn't aimed at readers like me, but I didn't exactly hate any of the Buffy/Spike stuff, I just found it mostly boring/cliche.
The best example being the whole 'don't tell Buffy anything until we know more because it's for her own good' line of reasoning. Although I thought it was pretty in character for Spike to do this, it's a plot point that I've seen/read so many times before I just rolled my eyes a little.

I think that Spike not trusting Buffy (and more importantly actively keeping the truth from her) doesn't bode well this early in their relationship. Basically at the end of the issue it's Buffy who decides to give Spike another chance by not shutting him out/running away.

I did like what little plot stuff we got, Spike and co trying to figure out if he'd actually done any of the killings. I thought that Willow in particular was very supportive.
The vampire trap didn't make a whole lot of sense, unless whoever turned Spike's victims was banking on somebody reading his dream/connection and acting upon what they found. So then they turn the nest into an inferno but Buffy just about manages to escape. Odd.

I thought that most of the Xander/Spike interaction was funny enough, and in character. Xander was right to bring in people who would actually be able to determine Spike's guilt as quickly as possible.

Hated the Andrew stuff. Don't care, found the explanations for his lack of sexual awareness a little unbeleivable.
Remember in S7 where at one point Andrew found Jonathan, Warren, Xander and Spike attractive? There's denial and then there's fancying about 80% of the male cast members who happen to be around.

The only bit I did like was Buffy listing all the horrible things that he'd done to her specifically. Although I disagree that Andrew 'deserves a shot at happiness.' A few issues ago he was royally screwing up for the 4th or 5th time. Where is any sense of atonement/doing the right thing we see from other characters?
F**k this character.

Willow breaking up with Aluwyn? *sigh* fine, that just seems a bit...random. It kinda went nowhere in terms of relationships. She seemed like an interesting character that the writers could've done something with. I remember all the reader speculation about what her angle might've been with Willow and now..?

A lot of my enjoyment of this arc hangs on the explanation of what's happening to Spike. If it's an interesting/shocking/original twist then all this hand-wringing by Buffy might be worthwhile.
 

EVIL UU

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The best example being the whole 'don't tell Buffy anything until we know more because it's for her own good' line of reasoning. Although I thought it was pretty in character for Spike to do this, it's a plot point that I've seen/read so many times before I just rolled my eyes a little.
Well, I'm enjoying Buffy being all happy and cute but yeah, it's "Lie To Me" all over again. Just another proof that there are no interesting stories left to tell about a relationship between Buffy and a vampire. That well is dry so to speak.

Willow breaking up with Aluwyn? *sigh* fine, that just seems a bit...random. It kinda went nowhere in terms of relationships. She seemed like an interesting character that the writers could've done something with.
The stuff with Aluwyn is weird because on one hand she's Willow's love interest so naturally we expect her to hang out with the gang and so on but on the other hand she's just a trickster in Willow's liminality. Willow completed her rite of passage so the trickster is no longer necessary. It's not fun but conceptually it makes sense, still, they should have gotten rid of the snake in Willow's Wonderland. Amy's like that too by the way - she lost the reason to exist in her current form the moment Willow accepted her imperfections and general evilness, hence the re-ratification. Man, I wonder where they're gonna take Will next, there's been some serious dead weight shedding going on lately with this character.
 

NothingVentured

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Hated the Andrew stuff. Don't care, found the explanations for his lack of sexual awareness a little unbeleivable.
Remember in S7 where at one point Andrew found Jonathan, Warren, Xander and Spike attractive? There's denial and then there's fancying about 80% of the male cast members who happen to be around.

The only bit I did like was Buffy listing all the horrible things that he'd done to her specifically. Although I disagree that Andrew 'deserves a shot at happiness.' A few issues ago he was royally screwing up for the 4th or 5th time. Where is any sense of atonement/doing the right thing we see from other characters?
F**k this character.
My beef is it is obviously supposed to be Buffy projecting. And yeah, the whole Andrew Is Gay thing is such a snoozer. They should have done it in S9. Now it just feels like wasted panel space.

Well, I'm enjoying Buffy being all happy and cute but yeah, it's "Lie To Me" all over again. Just another proof that there are no interesting stories left to tell about a relationship between Buffy and a vampire. That well is dry so to speak.
I think there are interesting stories, they just have no interest in telling them. They glossed over all the major Buffy/Spike issues. The AR, Buffy's apprehension that he only wants her because he sees her as unattainable, the ILY/NYD, him not contacting her after his return, the Immortal stuff. That's just stuff from the shows they could use, not even counting S8.

Instead they use external factors, which are always lame. Bright side is it doesn't look like they'll do the "Spike did evil stuff while soulless? :O :O" plotline. Downside is they'll probably do another Awkward Ex interaction that makes everyone look stupid. Oh, and someone (probably Angel) will walk in on them doing it. 'Cause you never get tired of that gag.

And probably a pregnancy or something. New rules, yo. They did the metaphor in S8, the almost in S9. Stands to reason they might do it for real in S10.
 

thetopher

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My beef is it is obviously supposed to be Buffy projecting.
Yeah it was and I'll just have to accept that I don't get where Buffy is coming from in this season at all and that I have an entirely different recollection of why her relationships fail.
Did Buffy run away from Angel? (No, he broke up with her) Parker? (No, she was rejected after rushing into a relationship with him). Riley? (Nope, she didn't share enough stuff with him, but the relationship ending? It was kinda mostly his fault)

Basically the speech applies to Spike and only Spike, and even then that's a very specific interpretation of their relationship. It's like its trying to answer when people whine 'but why can't Buffy just love Spike already? He soo deserves it.' Basically Spuffy fans.
So CG has given them an explanation, it just doesn't really make any sense.

I think there are interesting stories, they just have no interest in telling them. They glossed over all the major Buffy/Spike issues. The AR, Buffy's apprehension that he only wants her because he sees her as unattainable, the ILY/NYD, him not contacting her after his return, the Immortal stuff. That's just stuff from the shows they could use, not even counting S8.
Right, it basically ignored all the stuff from the shows to concentrate on 'new' obstacles, the way it did with 'Bangel' and the Twilight thing. 'Cause that worked so well.

Unfortunately by ignoring all those questions left over from the show their just making these ambiguous moments seem very straight foward.
Like the 'I love you,'/'no you don't' thing. Since nobody's addressed it then we have to take it entirely at face value. Spike said it and it turns out he was correct because otherwise it would've been reffered too by somebody.

Others, like the AR stuff are a different story. Scott Allie actually said that he felt the rape attempt was too 'toxic' to touch because when attempting to bring it up in forums, with certain hardcore Spuffy fans, received threats, slurs/insults and various bits of hate speech as a result ('You're a bigoted Bangel supported/hater, etc). So that he felt that it couldn't EVER be addressed. Hence the whole 'dark place' hand waving thing in S9.
 

NothingVentured

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Yeah it was and I'll just have to accept that I don't get where Buffy is coming from in this season at all and that I have an entirely different recollection of why her relationships fail.
Did Buffy run away from Angel? (No, he broke up with her) Parker? (No, she was rejected after rushing into a relationship with him). Riley? (Nope, she didn't share enough stuff with him, but the relationship ending? It was kinda mostly his fault)

Basically the speech applies to Spike and only Spike, and even then that's a very specific interpretation of their relationship. It's like its trying to answer when people whine 'but why can't Buffy just love Spike already? He soo deserves it.' Basically Spuffy fans.
So CG has given them an explanation, it just doesn't really make any sense.
A specific interpretation of a very narrow timeframe. Basically S6. When Spike was soulless and Buffy was depressed. Of course depression to these guys is just not letting yourself be happy. [/quote]


Right, it basically ignored all the stuff from the shows to concentrate on 'new' obstacles, the way it did with 'Bangel' and the Twilight thing. 'Cause that worked so well.

Unfortunately by ignoring all those questions left over from the show their just making these ambiguous moments seem very straight foward.
Like the 'I love you,'/'no you don't' thing. Since nobody's addressed it then we have to take it entirely at face value. Spike said it and it turns out he was correct because otherwise it would've been reffered too by somebody.

Others, like the AR stuff are a different story. Scott Allie actually said that he felt the rape attempt was too 'toxic' to touch because when attempting to bring it up in forums, with certain hardcore Spuffy fans, received threats, slurs/insults and various bits of hate speech as a result ('You're a bigoted Bangel supported/hater, etc). So that he felt that it couldn't EVER be addressed. Hence the whole 'dark place' hand waving thing in S9.
I don't know if we're meant to take it at face value or if it's the same as other things where they know their story is contradicting so they have to avoid it because they can't write themselves out of it. Like Connor. 'Oh, yeah, it happened off-panel somewhere...' when it couldn't have. Or the stuff with Andrew and the Immortal. They could have added that to her rant about his screwups in the last issue. Nothing, of course, because that whole retcon was silly. If someone asked them, they'd probably get the same off-panel response about the ILY.

If they can't deal with it, they shouldn't be writing it, IMO. As for the fans, they shouldn't even be interacting with them.
 

Silverspike

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"As for the fans, they shouldn't even be interacting with them"

Agreed. Sadly Scott Allie loved the attention and ended up being caught between waring fractions because of it.
 

NothingVentured

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I believe clinical depression is such a terrible, horrible desease, and, as far as I know, no one can be cured of it without medical help and drugs.
So do I. Which is why them rewriting it as simply 'self-hating!Buffy' and her just not letting herself be happy is farcical. But the OOC/retconning horse is long since dead and buried. All you can do is sigh.
 

gite63

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Which is why them rewriting it as simply 'self-hating!Buffy'
I don't think it is rewriting. She said in Season 7 that she hated herself. She wasn't in a good place - being ripped off of Heaven, of course she wouldn't be - and she couldn't count on any of her so called friends. She was miserable, but not depressed. If she was depressed and kept slaying (if she had strength to get out of bed in the morning) , she would have ended up dead.
 

NothingVentured

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I don't think it is rewriting. She said in Season 7 that she hated herself. She wasn't in a good place - being ripped off of Heaven, of course she wouldn't be - and she couldn't count on any of her so called friends. She was miserable, but not depressed. If she was depressed and kept slaying (if she had strength to get out of bed in the morning) , she would have ended up dead.
Every writer called it depression. It is widely known as the depression arc. Now suddenly she wasn't depressed, she just hated herself. I said 'simply self!hating' emphasis on 'simply' as-in simplifying depression down it being only that.

Sounds like the rewrite is already working. Hope it works out for you better than it did for the Bangels.
 

EVIL UU

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And probably a pregnancy or something. New rules, yo.


I believe clinical depression is such a terrible, horrible desease, and, as far as I know, no one can be cured of it without medical help and drugs.
I disagree. I lived through it - no drugs, ( mostly ) no shrinks and I pulled through, I'm healthy now. Took a couple of years though. Needless to say, I don't find the depiction of depression on BtVS very convincing.
 

gite63

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Do not do this to me... a Spuffy baby... oh, so sweet and cute and wonderful!

But I don't think it will happen.

I only read On Your Own last year.

When I read the old threads about On Your Own (I don't remember if was here) this year, people seemed to be certain that Buffy would have the baby, and this would ruin BtVS. Then, finally, a person said she might have an abortion...

I, for one, would think that Buffy the Vampire Slayer would never have the baby; it's not a story for BtVS, Buffy being a mom. I would never thought of abortion or a robot, but I would bet that she would miscarry the baby eventually.

Unless Season Ten is the end of BtVS... but even then, I doubt that we will have any baby... 
Needless to say, I don't find the depiction of depression on BtVS very convincing.
Because Buffy wasn't clinical depressed... she could have been - after all, she went through a big trauma, but she wasn't sick.

And don't throw stones at me, but... maybe, if she hadn't Spike to vent her frustrations, she would have got depressed...
 

EVIL UU

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Because Buffy wasn't clinical depressed... she could have been - after all, she went through a big trauma, but she wasn't sick.
She was, at least according to what Buffy says herself in 8.40:

I know this looks bad, right? I'm back to waitressing. Plus side, I'm not clinically depressed or wearing a hat with a chicken on it, so this would be my best service-industry job to date.

I, for one, would think that Buffy the Vampire Slayer would never have the baby; it's not a story for BtVS, Buffy being a mom.
But that's just the thing - Buffy is a mom already! Depending on how you look at it, she has two kids: Dawn ( She's me. The Monks made her out of me. I hold her and I feel closer to her than...It's not just the memories they built, it's physical. Dawn is a part of me ) and Twilight, the Winged-Lion/new universe thing. Also, she was already pregnant too so in my opinion, the theme of Buffy's kids/pregnancy is kinda old and busted.

Hey, Dawn should get pregnant just so Buffy can live through that shocking moment when she realizes that she is in fact a grandmother! :]
 

gite63

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I know this looks bad, right? I'm back to waitressing. Plus side, I'm not clinically depressed or wearing a hat with a chicken on it, so this would be my best service-industry job to date.
Yet, she didn't go to a doctor and she didn't take any medicine...

I've never been depressed, but I believe I already went through what Buffy did (I've never been in Heaven, mind you). I've seen clinically depressed people and lived together with one, its very different from going through a stressful time. "I'm not clinically depressed" is rewriting.

Besides, clinical depression + death wish + slaying + desire to return to Heaven = Death

Or, she was cured by Doctor Spike. But he wasn't that Doctor! ;)
 

Buffy Summers

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Now this issue I actually liked - it was coherent and held together. Happy that Willow broke up with Aluwyn because that whole thing always seemed ridiculous to me.

Only thing I didn't like was the end when Buffy is back to being wishy washy about Spike with and without a soul. Her opinion changes every single episode and it's like the writer either changes or doesn't know who the character is at that point in the story.
 

gite63

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Only thing I didn't like was the end when Buffy is back to being wishy washy about Spike with and without a soul. Her opinion changes every single episode and it's like the writer either changes or doesn't know who the character is at that point in the story.
Buffy can't rationalize like she used to do with Angel, who didn't have a shred of goodness in him. What soulless Spike did can be excused by the lack of a soul; but there are that period whit the chip that fits more into a grey area, and practically all the good (and bad, including the AR) things Spike did then was related to Buffy herself. With the chip, he somehow had the understanding of good and evil - he said he would not hurt Buffy, and eventually he did.

So, Buffy's opinion - better, Buffy's feelings - are still confusing; she cannot blame him for the AR - he didn't have a soul then - but at the same time she feels that he had some responsibility, because he had changed so much by then that is impossible to disregard the problem just to the lack of the soul.

Later, you'll see that Buffy will use the "him-your old..."/"you" again, and I agree with her: it's "you-you" that has to deal with the issue, and not "you-him"... everything in character, IMO.
 

vellavu

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I don't like Gage's treatment of Aluwyn here. I know you are not Joss who created her, but if you don't know how to writer her, leave her alone. The characterization in the Willow's miniseries is already off the mark by many yards.

Gage said he was careful enough not to mess with Melaka because he thought that was Joss's baby, but he ruined Aluwyn so hard that I don't know where to begin.

I hope there would be a "You're Welcome" issue for her in future seasons.
 
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