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Discussion of Buffy 10.18 "Old Demons, Part III" - Released 8/19/15 (Dark Horse)

Buffy Summers

Yataro
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Sineya
#1
Writer: Christos Gage
Penciller: Rebekah Isaacs

The Slayer's advantage against a powerful demon—having super-awesome friends—may be her undoing as Archaeus pits Spike and Angel against one another.

Source: Wikipedia
 
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#2
You were right. Immortals don't really change. Soul or not, he's still Spike. He fixates on someone. Decides they're gonna solve all his problems. Give his life meaning. Make him stop hating himself. But they don't. 'Cause they can't. And in the end, he drives 'em away. Confirming what he believes about himself. Letting him wallow in self-pity for a while. Then starts all over again.

Ain't like there's ever been much to the tosser. Catholic guilt and daddy issues, yawn. Look at you, boyo. You're pathetic. After all this time, all your talk of power and independence...you're still doing what your father tells you. Dancing like a puppet on a string to win his approval. Isn't that right, Liam?

Truth bombs!

This was an excellent issue. Seriously, I could barely find anything to bitch about, at least character-wise. The art is awesome, the writing delivers - go read it, it's great! Anyway...

I think that Spike and Angel were the real stars of this issue, and you know me, not a huge fan of those wankers but I do have to admit - they were awesome here. What I loved the most is that they acted like old friends who know each other very well and have an amazing insight into each other's issues. This is what allowed Spike to do what Buffy did to him in issue 15, that is, help Angel snap out of Archaeus influence. And can I just comment on how badass Spike was? Sword through the chest? You know what this tough son of a bitch does? Punches Angel in the face, takes out the blade. Total number of actual fs given: 0.0 ( "zero" ) Literally forked by the big bad? Please, it's nothing. On the top of that he got to slap Angel in the face! Angel was great as well - he genuinely thanked Spike for his help and totally gave him his blessings. They parted as real friends, with a handshake and I absolutely loved that!

Buffy and Angel. In my humble opinion Buffy/Angel as a romantic relationship is done. It's over. Do you know why? Because there is no passion between them anymore. No, nothing dramatic whatsoever happened between those two but that's the point, isn't it? Look at their conversation:

Angel: I know there were some...bumps. But it was really good to see you again.
Buffy: I feel bad it took so long. I...missed you. I know things with us are never gonna be simple. But am I overreaching if I think we're both strong enough now to be part of each other's lives again?
Angel: I'd hate it if we weren't.
Buffy: So, me and Spike...?
Angel: All I ever wanted was for you to be happy. You seem like you are. I can live with that.

Focus on what Buffy says. Here's a translation: Let's just be friends, Angel. Now, compare it to some of Buffy's angst-ridden lines about Angel from the past ( like this one for example: seeing Angel in LA...even for five minutes...hello to the pain. I know it's nuts, but...part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting ) and you will certainly notice a staggering difference in the emotional intensity. And the kiss? That was a friend kiss, it's how Buffy kisses Xander. Friends, "Chosen" the sequel did not happen, the infamous love triangle has been, in my humble opinion, officially concluded. I mean, look at the cover.

Willow. I love it when Buffy and Willow fight evil together because they make such a great team and this issue delivered, I very much enjoyed those panels. Willow also got to fry some vampires ( I'm with Dawnie here - Yay! ) and call Andrew an idiot because somehow I didn't love her enough already. Her conversation with Angel was interesting as well - those two have really gotten close, haven't they? As was Angel's conversation with Xander with another parallel involving Summers women. Andrew? Well, he and Angel just shared an epic fist bump!

What else? Jokes about Michael Bay's writing when you're writing a Buffy comic? Dude. Speaking of - if restless door can be fixed why wasn't the same possible with the old seed, huh? Anyway...that's it, once again, I loved the art, the battle looked incredible and now that the set-up for the rest of the season is seemingly done can we please have some issues focusing on Giles, Xander, Willow and Dawn? Then it's time for some dying but with a line like this...

But I've lived a long time, and never seen a happy ending. My experience...it's the happiness that always ends.

...you know that it's a given!
 
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Sineya
#3
You were right. Immortals don't really change. Soul or not, he's still Spike. He fixates on someone. Decides they're gonna solve all his problems. Give his life meaning. Make him stop hating himself. But they don't. 'Cause they can't. And in the end, he drives 'em away. Confirming what he believes about himself. Letting him wallow in self-pity for a while. Then starts all over again.

Ain't like there's ever been much to the tosser. Catholic guilt and daddy issues, yawn. Look at you, boyo. You're pathetic. After all this time, all your talk of power and independence...you're still doing what your father tells you. Dancing like a puppet on a string to win his approval. Isn't that right, Liam?


Truth bombs!

This was an excellent issue. Seriously, I could barely find anything to bitch about, at least character-wise. The art is awesome, the writing delivers - go read it, it's great! Anyway...

I think that Spike and Angel were the real stars of this issue, and you know me, not a huge fan of those wankers but I do have to admit - they were awesome here. What I loved the most is that they acted like old friends who know each other very well and have an amazing insight into each other's issues. This is what allowed Spike to do what Buffy did to him in issue 15, that is, help Angel snap out of Archaeus influence. And can I just comment on how badass Spike was? Sword through the chest? You know what this tough son of a bitch does? Punches Angel in the face, takes out the blade. Total number of actual fs given: 0.0 ( "zero" ) Literally forked by the big bad? Please, it's nothing. On the top of that he got to slap Angel in the face! Angel was great as well - he genuinely thanked Spike for his help and totally gave him his blessings. They parted as real friends, with a handshake and I absolutely loved that!

Buffy and Angel. In my humble opinion Buffy/Angel as a romantic relationship is done. It's over. Do you know why? Because there is no passion between them anymore. No, nothing dramatic whatsoever happened between those two but that's the point, isn't it? Look at their conversation:

Angel: I know there were some...bumps. But it was really good to see you again.
Buffy: I feel bad it took so long. I...missed you. I know things with us are never gonna be simple. But am I overreaching if I think we're both strong enough now to be part of each other's lives again?
Angel: I'd hate it if we weren't.
Buffy: So, me and Spike...?
Angel: All I ever wanted was for you to be happy. You seem like you are. I can live with that.

Focus on what Buffy says. Here's a translation: Let's just be friends, Angel. Now, compare it to some of Buffy's angst-ridden lines about Angel from the past ( like this one for example: seeing Angel in LA...even for five minutes...hello to the pain. I know it's nuts, but...part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting ) and you will certainly notice a staggering difference in the emotional intensity. And the kiss? That was a friend kiss, it's how Buffy kisses Xander. Friends, "Chosen" the sequel did not happen, the infamous love triangle has been, in my humble opinion, officially concluded. I mean, look at the cover.

Willow. I love it when Buffy and Willow fight evil together because they make such a great team and this issue delivered, I very much enjoyed those panels. Willow also got to fry some vampires ( I'm with Dawnie here - Yay! ) and call Andrew an idiot because somehow I didn't love her enough already. Her conversation with Angel was interesting as well - those two have really gotten close, haven't they? As was Angel's conversation with Xander with another parallel involving Summers women. Andrew? Well, he and Angel just shared an epic fist bump!

What else? Jokes about Michael Bay's writing when you're writing a Buffy comic? Dude. Speaking of - if restless door can be fixed why wasn't the same possible with the old seed, huh? Anyway...that's it, once again, I loved the art, the battle looked incredible and now that the set-up for the rest of the season is seemingly done can we please have some issues focusing on Giles, Xander, Willow and Dawn?
Well, you said it all...

I'm just intrigued by the way they are pushing the “immortals don't change” issue. Will we see something more of consequence about this?
  • It's just the writers giving a reason to break Buffy and Spike in the future;
  • Someone will be immortal no more – Angel or Spike?
What Angel spoke about Spike – he is immortal too, he doesn't change, he has a pattern, “he fixates on someone, thinking they will fix him, and when it doesn't happen he drives them away”... well, Spike seemed to be changing before Buffy kissed him in the cemetery - finally, he was moving on – not only from Buffy, but he was making a life for himself; he wasn't looking for someone to fix him, he was fixing his life, finally. So, if Buffy is ruining this for him...

I think that Spike and Angel were the real stars of this issue, and you know me, not a huge fan of those wankers but I do have to admit - they were awesome here. What I loved the most is that they acted like old friends who know each other very well and have an amazing insight into each other's issues.
Yes, they really were awsome !

But I've lived a long time, and never seen a happy ending. My experience...it's the happiness that always ends.

...you know that it's a given!
Well, that's truth in the Buffyverse, and kind of in real life, too...
 
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#4
Imo the whole 'Immortals don't change' bit doesn't quite work for me, because imo in both Spike and Angels case I actually think they have. Not in everything, but they aren't quite the same people they were when they were first sired.
 
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#5
well, Spike seemed to be changing before Buffy kissed him in the cemetery - finally, he was moving on – not only from Buffy, but he was making a life for himself; he wasn't looking for someone to fix him, he was fixing his life, finally. So, if Buffy is ruining this for him...
This is something that kinda bothers me. On one hand Buffy's current relationship with Spike has been pretty entertaining so far and for once they both seem happy as well so that's good but on the other hand Buffy completely trashed Spike's character development and dragged him back into the same state he's been in...forever, really. I'm not sure how I feel about it - I don't know, I just hope her feelings are genuine 'cause otherwise she is so going to break his heart.
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
#7
That's horrible.. it really doesn't sit well for me at all. The handshake, the little smiles. I'm glad I stopped buying them again. That image just looks bad. Not to mention Angel has no body, and I cant imagine Spike wearing dress slacks.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
#10
Read it, kinda liked it. The character stuff was good and the action was top notch- really dynamic and exciting. Willow was great here as were Angel and Spike.
The plot stuff wasn't really resolved in any way but at least the relationship stuff was (basic sign posts for the next plot arc really).
Looks like Bangel has ended and the whole 'it's doomed because he's immortal' is pretty much what I've been saying since the beginning of this whole thing. So I'm feeling kind of vindicated. :)

Immortals don't change, not really. The soul changed Angel a lot but really, he's the same guy he always has been- redemption, fighting/brooding, big dramatic gestures to make amends.
And Spike, huh, Spike even more so. Basically the same guy as Angel so brilliantly pointed out. I can't tell you how much I loved that scene: Angel being the bigger man, wishing them both well, and then casually telling Willow that it was doomed because Spike will always be Spike.

To me this was a big Spangel issue with big thundering Spangel moments. They know each other very well (better than anybody else perhaps) and realize their personality's patterns. Angel's speech could easily be read as 'I'm not worried, Spike will come round.' I mean, the lack of passion shown between Buffy and Angel...looks the the two-vamp ship is sailing. ;)
 
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Sineya
#11
You could post the whole thing that why I can read it without having to pay!
No way, I work with advertising, so I'm advertising it to make people want to buy it... :D
 
Spanky
Spanky
It was a joke.. you work in advertising.. thats good to know! What sector or just in general?
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#13
Q&A with Christos Gage
http://*********.com/showthread.php/3801-Q-amp-A-with-Christos-Gage-for-Buffy-Season-10-18
  • Immortals don't change: it's not a thing written in stone
  • Dawn being The Key
  • Dr. Mike and Nick Brendon
  • Dylan (from Spike: Into the Light)
  • Vampyr book
  • Maloker/Archaeus
Gage said something similar to what I had said some time ago about Willow's opinion on immortals not being capable of changing:

She has a point, but she is pretty upset about her thing with Aluwyn – I believe if she was human, she wouldn't have changed in so little time! Besides, Will wanted that Aluwyn had changed from evil to good, and that is too much to ask.
 
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#14
Q&A with Christos Gage
  • Immortals don't change: it's not a thing written in stone
  • Dawn being The Key
  • Dr. Mike and Nick Brendon
  • Dylan (from Spike: Into the Light)
  • Vampyr book
  • Maloker/Archaeus
Gage said something similar to what I had said some time ago about Willow's opinion on immortals not being capable of changing:
The link doesn't work for me. Can you post it again?
 
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#16
Man, those QAs are always so lame. This however...

Looking ahead, the Buffy/Willow relationship will be more of a focus (...) the title for the final arc is “Own It”


...sounds pretty interesting. Own it as in You're awesome. Own it. from issue 10? Looking forward to it, Buffy/Willow is probably my favourite relationship.

Dr. Mike has been the subject of much discussion between me and Nicky Brendon. Nicky loves Dr. Mike, and asked me to please not reveal that he’s a demon or evil manipulator with some secret agenda. He likes the idea that Xander has someone in his life who is just a good person looking out for him. And I agree, so Dr. Mike is not evil. As to whether Dr. Mike will appear on the page, it remains unclear. Nicky wants him to, while I kinda didn’t, but I’m beginning to be swayed. We’ll see if there’s a point in the last 4 issues where it makes sense for him to show up. What do you all think about the great Dr. Mike controversy?

This though? Embarrassing.
 
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#17
And sorry about that "word", I cannot fix that anymore, as the 15 minutes have passed...
 
Buffy Summers
Buffy Summers
It's okay. They've asked that we not post their stuff here, however. Just for future.
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#19
This though? Embarrassing.
Do you mean Nick or Dr Mike?

I'm glad that Dr. Mike isn't evil. There are a thread here on the Board that discussed Xander, and one thing that was pointed out is that he had anger issues. Since Season 8, Xander has being fighting it, and in Season 10 he has finally looked for help - and its working. I believe Xander matured a lot, and I think his relationship with Dawn was a good thing that hapenned in his life, and I hope they get back together.

Nick wrote some Dracula in Season 9 - and I loved it. If he wants to write Dr Mike, I say, write it already, man!
 
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Black Thorn
#20
So quite a good issue all round. The action was good and you've got to hand it to Spike for taking a hell of a beating and keeping going. Xander's line about not comparing balls :D.

There were a few bits though that I'm not sure about. Angel's speech at the end felt a little odd. I get the bit where he's basically saying it won't last so he'll just suck it up and be polite but I'm not sure if he has enough information to call out Spike on his issues. What he says:

You were right. Immortals don't really change. Soul or not, he's still Spike. He fixates on someone. Decides they're gonna solve all his problems. Give his life meaning. Make him stop hating himself. But they don't. 'Cause they can't. And in the end, he drives 'em away. Confirming what he believes about himself. Letting him wallow in self-pity for a while. Then starts all over again.

From what I could tell Spike was with Drusilla the whole time him and Angel were soulless together. It's not like he jumped from one vampire to the next and developed a pattern. Then with a soul all Angel has really seen is Spike be interested in Buffy. So while Angel is not necessarily wrong and may well be onto something I'm not entirely sure how's he's got to his conclusion. Also the grinning handshaking from the pair of them at the end was awkward. I think more of a nod or look of understanding would have been more their thing.

I'm a little surprised with how well everyone reacted to Angel in the whole arc. I know Giles is back and no one really wants to talk about Twilight but everyone was really warm and happy to see him. I thought there'd be a bit more of an edge to it. Ignoring the overall craziness of the plan Angel did actually carry out some horrible things under the mask. He beat the hell out of Buffy for a start. Yet Dawn is throwing her arms around him and telling him how much she used to fancy him? He gave the execution order for hundreds of slayers, people under the watch of Buffy and Xander, yet Xander is asking him if they're OK after he hit him a few times?

I'm looking forward to the Giles story next issue. I think he's been a little wasted so far so hopefully we get something meaty and some meaningful interactions.
 
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