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Discussion of Buffy 10.18 "Old Demons, Part III" - Released 8/19/15 (Dark Horse)

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#21
I'm a little surprised with how well everyone reacted to Angel in the whole arc. I know Giles is back and no one really wants to talk about Twilight but everyone was really warm and happy to see him.
Kinda, yeah, but I don't know, I think that for the most part it made sense. Willow made her peace with Angel in season 9 and so did Giles, I presume. Buffy is...well, Buffy, her willingness to forgive is borderline legendary although she still made it pretty clear that she doesn't exactly trust Angel. Xander is going through changes and if you take the events of season 9 into consideration - I may not like it but I do understand where they're coming from. Dawn? I'm with you here. OK, I heard it, influence of magical whatever plus the whole memory bullshit - I get that but still, remember when Dawn told Spike that she would set him on fire? Or how aggressive she was towards Faith in "Dirty Girls"? I realize that the writers probably want to finally move past season 8, close that door but a little quip from Dawnie wouldn't have ruined that.
 
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#23
I realize that the writers probably want to finally move past season 8, close that door but a little quip from Dawnie wouldn't have ruined that.
I think this is it. The writers want to move past Angel the super villain and get him back to being just Angel again. So they're keeping talk of Twilight to non specific details and Angel expressing his regret and apologising. It's fair enough I suppose since the whole thing was a bit of a mess but it does feel like cheating to just move on completely.

For me it's the fact that everyone is on the same page that makes it a bit jarring. Like you say there are reasons for each individual character to move on and not hold grudges but I was just surprised to see everyone doing the same thing. I agree that I wouldn't have expected animosity from Giles, Willow or Buffy but I thought one of Dawn or Xander would have a bit more to say.
 
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#24
Dawn? I'm with you here. OK, I heard it, influence of magical whatever plus the whole memory bullshit - I get that but still, remember when Dawn told Spike that she would set him on fire? Or how aggressive she was towards Faith in "Dirty Girls"?
I think it is because her memories were reset back when she was very young - she remembers Twilight, but she doesn't feel the whole thing, you know what I mean? People tend to respond according their feelings... And Dawn is still pretty young.
 
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#25
I think it is because her memories were reset back when she was very young - she remembers Twilight, but she doesn't feel the whole thing, you know what I mean?
I know, it's just...I got to see Dawn when she was 14. She would steal things, slash herself ouch!, and on occasion tell people to GET OUT! She was a rebellious sparkplug, a gutsy pain in the ass! And she was awesome! Season 10 Dawn is nothing like that. Sigh, maybe I just don't understand this whole reset thing.

Seriously, evil forces of Buffyverse, please kill Dawn Summers and put this once OK-ish character out of her misery.
 
gite63
gite63
Maybe her keyness will be the key to make her interesting...

white avenger

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#26
I know how this is going to sound, coming from me, but I'm gonna stick my neck out and say it anyhow. Get your axes sharpened up.

Here we have Angel, who fell in love with a 15 year old cheerleader the first moment that he saw her, and changed his whole life in order to "help" her. Buffy's ex-boyfriend, ex-lover, ex-out of town boyfriend, the guy who gets all hopeful about a ridiculous cookie dough speech, the guy who has someone watching not-Buffy in Rome, while still clinging to the hope of fresh baked Buffy-cookies, ex-mortal enemy and Big Bad minion, and ex-lover once again. This is the guy who's now laying out pearls of wisdom like, "Wasn't all that hard. It's not like it's gonna last," "I wouldn't (cause trouble for Buffy and Spike) I don't have to." "He fixates on someone. Decides they're gonna solve all his problems," "Soul or not, he's still Spike." and, "It's the happiness that's always ending."

Either he's had one hell of an epiphany (and not a good one!) somewhere between Seasons 9 and 10, or he's the sorest loser in the Buffyverse. I vote for the latter. It's like, "If I can't make it work with Buffy, no one can." Has he completely forgotten who he's talking about, here? This is Spike, the vampire who did the unthinkable, and actually, willingly, through great personal risk and with quite a lot of pain, regained his soul. Has he forgotten that, or has he forgotten back when he, himself was hoping for something called the Shanshu, a prophecy about an ensouled vampire who would be awarded, not cursed, by becoming human again. Immortality may never change, but that doesn't mean that immortals can't. And he's almost certainly the only vampire in the history of this or any other world, who definitely knows that a vampire can, indeed, become mortal again.

And, no, I'm not saying that it's a given that, some day, at some point, Spike is going to find a way, or cut a deal with someone, or some THING, somewhere, to give up his immortality in order to share a more or less normal life with Buffy, but is it too much for Angel, if he really wants Buffy's happiness above everything else, to at least give Buffy and Spike the benefit of the doubt?

Okay, I've said my piece. Let the axes fall.
 
GoSpuffy
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#27
Either he's had one hell of an epiphany (and not a good one!) somewhere between Seasons 9 and 10, or he's the sorest loser in the Buffyverse. I vote for the latter. It's like, "If I can't make it work with Buffy, no one can."
Well, as Christos Gage said (and I had said the same thing before him about Will), both Willow and Angel gave their opinions about immortal-human relationships while being recently hurt by not being able to have immortal-human relationships... it's human nature. Well, Angel isn't human, but anyway, he has feelings, after all.

the guy who gets all hopeful about a ridiculous cookie dough speech, the guy who has someone watching not-Buffy in Rome, while still clinging to the hope of fresh baked Buffy-cookies,
This was before Twilight. After that fiasco, I believe Angel is now more brooding than ever - and not just because of Buffy.

Okay, I've said my piece. Let the axes fall.
You are brave.
 
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#28
@white avenger

I don't think that we can easily discard what Angel says about Spike just because he's currently upset - he's known Spike for a 100+ years. That has to count for something.

And, no, I'm not saying that it's a given that, some day, at some point, Spike is going to find a way, or cut a deal with someone, or some THING, somewhere, to give up his immortality in order to share a more or less normal life with Buffy
I think that after 10 seasons it's safe to say that Buffy in fact does not want a normal life. In my opinion, if Spike ever becomes a human again Buffy will simply break up with him.
 
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#29
I think that after 10 seasons it's safe to say that Buffy in fact does not want a normal life. In my opinion, if Spike ever becomes a human again Buffy will simply break up with him.
Yes, I think that, too. First, she, as a Slayer, needs someone that is as strong as her, an equal. Besides, she said to Billy the Vampire Slayer that is hard to fight along with a loved one - you have to protect him/her, and that could distract you from the mission. And, yeah, a lover it's different from friends, and even sisters.

If Spike wants to be human, he must think hard before doing anything, if his intention is to be with Buffy; unless they break up and he is tired of the vampire life style, and want to be human for himself, something like that. Or, he could find some cave demon that turns him human, with superpowers... :D

he's known Spike for a 100+ years. That has to count for something.
Not so much; Angel didn't know him chipped; he barely knows Spike souled. In Season 5, they bickered a lot (and Spike didn't have any girlfriend), and in After the Fall, they fought together, Angel thanked Spike for having taken care of Connor etc, but again, he didn't see Spike with anyone special.
 
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GoSpuffy
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#30
Besides, she said to Billy the Vampire Slayer that is hard to fight along with a loved one - you have to protect him/her, and that could distract you from the mission.
Right, because Buffy never had to protect Angel and Spike. Seriously? Do I really have to list every single episode/issue where Buffy had to save/shield/coddle/babysit those losers?

First, she, as a Slayer, needs someone that is as strong as her, an equal.
It's not about being as strong as her - it's about Spike losing his identity as it is inevitably tied to him being a vampire. And anyway, Spike is not as strong as Buffy. If Buffy, like you say, really needs an equal then she should probably woo another slayer. Or Willow. Or Illyria.
 
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#31
Right, because Buffy never had to protect Angel and Spike. Seriously? Do I really have to list every single episode/issue where Buffy had to save/shield/coddle/babysit those losers?
Well, Spike got to be the damsel in distress to be saved by Buffy, yeah, but if he has a sword through his heart, or is pinned to the wall by a demon, she doesn't need to worry about it.

It's not about being as strong as her - it's about Spike losing his identity as it is inevitably tied to him being a vampire.
Yes, he needs to want to change for him, and not for others, this time.

And anyway, Spike is not as strong as Buffy. If Buffy, like you say, really needs an equal then she should probably woo another slayer. Or Willow. Or Illyria.
No, he is not, but then Illyria would be stronger than Buffy... it's not about one be stronger or weaker than the other, but the person can't be a defenseless human being, either. Unless he stays at home, while Buffy goes to work...

Besides, Buffy has darkness in her, so she needs to embrace her dark place, i.e. Spike! Althoug now he is such a boy scout. :D
 

thetopher

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#32
Either he's had one hell of an epiphany (and not a good one!) somewhere between Seasons 9 and 10, or he's the sorest loser in the Buffyverse. I vote for the latter. It's like, "If I can't make it work with Buffy, no one can."
*Flips coin* and the answer is...Season 3 of Buffy! Angel knew then that mortal+immortal equals doomed. He's know this for a long time now which is why he ain't really worried about Spike.
There is no doubt in my mind that if Buffy had been shacked up with Riley or Lt. Dowling or Faith or Willow then Angel wouldn't have given that speech.
It isn't really jealousy or bitterness, or being a 'sore loser', its just that he knows Spike, Spike is a vampire with 100+ years of baggage just like Angel.

Has he completely forgotten who he's talking about, here? This is Spike, the vampire who did the unthinkable, and actually, willingly, through great personal risk and with quite a lot of pain, regained his soul. Has he forgotten that, or has he forgotten back when he, himself was hoping for something called the Shanshu, a prophecy about an ensouled vampire who would be awarded, not cursed, by becoming human again. Immortality may never change, but that doesn't mean that immortals can't. And he's almost certainly the only vampire in the history of this or any other world, who definitely knows that a vampire can, indeed, become mortal again.
Think of it like this, if Angel had used the word 'cycle' rather than 'stays the same'/doesn't change (which is actually what he means). It's semantics but basically, compared to almost any other main character, these two vamps are stuck in the same cycles of behavior.

Look at Willow- from high school computer nerd to world class Wicca, to ultimate evil, to ultimate good, to mother-of-magic. That's progress.
Or Xander- high school class clown to second in command of a slayer army, gritty eye patch and a bunch of anger issues.
Or Faith, reckless, cynical loner who would cling to any affection (and money) whatever the cost is now the mature, has-her-shit-together slayer who gives Giles his money back when he wants to run and go be with Buffy again.

But Angel and Spike are still stuck in the same cycle of behavior.
For Angel it's about repentance, brooding and making himself suffer eating alley rats, cutting himself off from humanity etc), forgoing the easy option and doing the right thing (leaving Buffy, destroying the gem, being made human again, etc), until something happens so that he wants to 'fix' (death by sunrise, going dark, trying to get Connor back using blackest magics, joining W&H to help more, Twilight) things and 'make things better'- it goes wrong so he has to repent, brood, same old same old.
After many years Angel is still guarding a city, brooding, drinking, helping people to make up for all that he's done wrong. He even has some allies again. Same damn thing.

Spike...well its actually even worse because its happened since his turning. It's a cycle of love and rejection (whether he's being rejected or doing the rejecting it doesn't matter) William loves his Mum, William loves Cecily, William gets rejected by Cecily, gets chosen by Drusilla, gets rejected by his Mum, eventually gets rejected by Drusilla (you could include gets accepted by Angelus here for you shipper types), gets rejected by Buffy when he expresses his love for her, gets accepted by Buffy, then rejected, then accepted again, etc.
Throughout it all its about the woman he's with, whether requited or unrequited. Demon or chip or soul there's always that cycle.


And I think I can sort of predict what happens next in this little pattern. Spike rejects Buffy.

Crazy right? But here's the thing about the way the season has been structured so far- we know that the book is 'doing something' (as indicated by the writers in a not so subtle way- the Big Bad is an object) and I predict that the Spuffy ship with sail along for another arc or three before hitting upon this realization about the effect of the book.
So far this season we've had Spike almost constantly doubt that Buffy has feelings for him- rejecting that first kiss, hiding the info about his dreams/what's causing them, panicking about Buffy going in his head, panicking about Angel coming over to help, etc. So Spike finds out about what the book has being doing and...well it confirms that all that has happened isn't real, it's forced.
Whether its his 'doing' (subconsciously or whatever) or not Spike's going to freak and his insecurities will come to the fore. Then he'll probably break up with Buffy- and that Dylan woman will be on hand to pick up the pieces.

IF I am right (and its just a theory) I will loathe that outcome, because it won't be a definitive ending like the ship deserves, it will just be more bullshit.
 
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#33
"And I think I can sort of predict what happens next in this little pattern. Spike rejects Buffy."

Well considering Gauge said that Dylan will be back it's not hard to guess what will happen.
 

white avenger

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#34
@white avenger

I don't think that we can easily discard what Angel says about Spike just because he's currently upset - he's known Spike for a 100+ years. That has to count for something.



I think that after 10 seasons it's safe to say that Buffy in fact does not want a normal life. In my opinion, if Spike ever becomes a human again Buffy will simply break up with him.
Angel knew Spike only as an evil monster from their bad boy days. In the Buffyverse, that Spike doesn't exist anymore. The ensouled Spike that Angel has known, at best, a couple of years, despite still having the old memories, is a totally different character. Angel knew that new man only as the one who took great delight in making Angel's existence a living hell, even before Angel's master plan sent to hell together. Buffy has known ensouled Spike far longer than Angel has, trusts him, and believes that he is a better man than the one who tried to rape her in Season 6.

*Flips coin* and the answer is...Season 3 of Buffy! Angel knew then that mortal+immortal equals doomed. He's know this for a long time now which is why he ain't really worried about Spike.

There is no doubt in my mind that if Buffy had been shacked up with Riley or Lt. Dowling or Faith or Willow then Angel wouldn't have given that speech.

It isn't really jealousy or bitterness, or being a 'sore loser', its just that he knows Spike, Spike is a vampire with 100+ years of baggage just like Angel.



Spike...well its actually even worse because its happened since his turning. It's a cycle of love and rejection (whether he's being rejected or doing the rejecting it doesn't matter) William loves his Mum, William loves Cecily, William gets rejected by Cecily, gets chosen by Drusilla, gets rejected by his Mum, eventually gets rejected by Drusilla (you could include gets accepted by Angelus here for you shipper types), gets rejected by Buffy when he expresses his love for her, gets accepted by Buffy, then rejected, then accepted again, etc.
Throughout it all its about the woman he's with, whether requited or unrequited. Demon or chip or soul there's always that cycle.


And I think I can sort of predict what happens next in this little pattern. Spike rejects Buffy.


IF I am right (and its just a theory) I will loathe that outcome, because it won't be a definitive ending like the ship deserves, it will just be more bullshit.

His immortality had little or nothing to do with Angel leaving Sunnydale. Angel left Sunnydale because he was afraid that if he stayed, either he, Buffy, or both, would have a moment of weakness that would lead to a moment of perfect happiness, which would lead to you-know-who coming back. If he really thought that a mortal/immortal relationship were doomed, he would have never come back, and he would never have pinned any hopes on Buffy's cookie dough getting baked.

As for Angel's reaction to Buffy "shacking up" with someone else, a more or less human someone else named Riley, I remember something about Buffy having that option, being able to love someone else, while he wasn't allowed to. Not jealous of Riley? Right.

Then there was his reaction to the news that Spike had a soul "You know, I started it. The having a soul," And that was even before he found out that Spike's soul was a prize, not a curse. Not jealous of Spike? Not much.

And all of this "cycle" that you mention applies to a soulless vampire who doesn't exist anymore, except in the unpleasant memories that ensouled Spike retains of those days, much like a normal, soulless, vampire retains the memories of his human host.

While theories are my territory, I've never made exclusive claim to the right to have a few, now and again. Having Spike reject Buffy for a change is a dandy. I might even say, it's about dang time somebody gave her a taste of her own medicine (Riley doesn't count, since, in my opinion, she more or less drove him away) Just remember, I'm the guy who hit it right about Buffy and Spike two years before it actually happened, and I even named the season correctly. You're talking to the winner and still champ of long range predictions, here. I welcome your competition. Competition is fun, as long as we don't get bitter about losing.

Kinda like Angel being bitter about losing to Spike.
 
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#35
but if he has a sword through his heart, or is pinned to the wall by a demon, she doesn't need to worry about it.
True, but it's a double-edged sword. There are still things that Buffy needs to worry about, such as, for example sunlight. We've seen it in this season even:

Time for all those of the undead persuasion to be snug in their coffins. Or, in my case, that liquor store. Terribly sorry I can't help with tidying up. Anyone needs me, I'll be righteously drunk.
the person can't be a defenseless human being, either.
Not sure whether I would call Giles, Xander, Willow or even Dawn defenseless.

I predict that the Spuffy ship with sail along for another arc or three before hitting upon this realization about the effect of the book.
I don't think the book is even needed to break them up. The issues in this relationship are both obvious and numerous.
 

thetopher

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#36
His immortality had little or nothing to do with Angel leaving Sunnydale.
Wrong. Go and watch 'Choices' and 'The Prom', the reasons for Buffy and Angel not being together are numerous. The curse is ONE thing, not everything. Angel uses terms like freakshow, The Mayor calls Buffy a blossoming young girl that Angel wants to keep in the shadows, Joyce makes no mention of the curse, just the concern for the emotional welfare of her daughter. Slayer plus vampire is unhealthy, Angel gets that, Spike does not because he doesn't think, he feels.

As for Angel's reaction to Buffy "shacking up" with someone else, a more or less human someone else named Riley, I remember something about Buffy having that option, being able to love someone else, while he wasn't allowed to. Not jealous of Riley? Right.
Oh right, was that the time Buffy was a utter bitca to Angel because she was jealous of him sticking up for Faith? She tore into him for the express purpose of hurting him? And then didn't he come to Sunnydale to apologize for what he said? And then he gracefully left her and Riley alone until her Mom's funeral.

Then there was his reaction to the news that Spike had a soul "You know, I started it. The having a soul," And that was even before he found out that Spike's soul was a prize, not a curse. Not jealous of Spike? Not much.
Yes, Angel was jealous of Spike then, but not now. Angel's jealousy is so easy to recognize because of its sheer pettiness. I saw no pettiness in this issue- not from Angel, I saw plenty from Spike though.

And all of this "cycle" that you mention applies to a soulless vampire who doesn't exist anymore, except in the unpleasant memories that ensouled Spike retains of those days, much like a normal, soulless, vampire retains the memories of his human host.
It's there, its a thing. Buffy is the new Dru. Soulled Spike is in love with Buffy just like soulless Spike was, he din't change in that regard- that creature still exists- the two vampires are stuck in a cycle. I've given examples- Spike is still love's bitch and Angel is still ol' broody pants, even after all these years. They are not fundamentally different from what they were.

While theories are my territory, I've never made exclusive claim to the right to have a few, now and again. Having Spike reject Buffy for a change is a dandy. I might even say, it's about dang time somebody gave her a taste of her own medicine (Riley doesn't count, since, in my opinion, she more or less drove him away) Just remember, I'm the guy who hit it right about Buffy and Spike two years before it actually happened, and I even named the season correctly. You're talking to the winner and still champ of long range predictions, here. I welcome your competition. Competition is fun, as long as we don't get bitter about losing.

Kinda like Angel being bitter about losing to Spike.
Some of this is strange, some of it is needlessly combative in tone and some of it is just odiously unpleasant to be honest. You can keep your 'Buffy should get what's coming to her' theories to yourself thanks, I have no interest in such pettiness. Because I don't think somebody has an obligation to love somebody else just because that person is in love with them. Such thinking is, in my view, very childish and self-centered.
You certainly sound very pleased with yourself and your predictions so I guess that's something. Good for you I say, and I hope you're not too bitter when Angel's prediction turns out to be accurate.
God, now I remember why I hope this ship dies a death as quickly as possible, the utterly unpleasant smugness of its fans.
 
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#37
His immortality had little or nothing to do with Angel leaving Sunnydale.
Exactly. They loved each other. They wanted to be with each other. Angel left because they couldn't be a couple, and they couldn't be a couple because they couldn't have sex.

Just remember, I'm the guy who hit it right about Buffy and Spike two years before it actually happened, and I even named the season correctly.
So, you got the idea of Spuffy that had been lingering since season 4! Cool! I started being a fan only from Season 5 on.

True, but it's a double-edged sword. There are still things that Buffy needs to worry about, such as, for example sunlight. We've seen it in this season even:
Yes, I know, and it would (and will) always be a problem if she is in love with somebody that fights along with her - whomever that be. The ideal partner would someone that worked in a office (a normal guy, ew), or fought different battles... All relationships have its challenges, and I think that Buffy would be better with someone stronger than a normal human. What she wants, or will want in the future, it's another thing, she - or anyone - can't choose whom to love.
 
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#38
"God, now I remember why I hope this ship dies a death as quickly as possible, the utterly unpleasant smugness of its fans."

Sweeping statement much?
 

white avenger

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#39
So, you got the idea of Spuffy that had been lingering since season 4! Cool! I started being a fan only from Season 5 on.
No, the idea of Spuffy originated in Season 2, "School Hard." All that I predicted, back, when it became official that Dark Horse got the rights for "Angel" and all of its characters, including Spike, from IDW, was that Buffy and Spike would begin an actual romantic (as opposed to the mutual abuse-fest of Season 6) in Season 10.
 
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