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Discussion of Buffy 10.18 "Old Demons, Part III" - Released 8/19/15 (Dark Horse)

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#41
Thing is I think people overplay that element.

Both sets can be as bad as each other, but it's shippers within any fandom that seem to help underpin it and keep it going even when other fans have lost interest and walked away.

But in this instance this comment was aimed solely at the Spike/Buffy fans, which I think is unfair.
 
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Sineya
#42
Does anyone else think Spike is being drawn distracting-ly young? In illustration years, he looks like a teenager to me...

In my mind's eye, I tend to picture Spike's appearance around Marsters' BtVS S4 & 5 age. Angel they draw younger as well, but that's a little more forgivable, since to me he looks similar to Boreanaz' earlier appearances in the Buffyverse.

While I don't like the "immortals never change" line, unfortunately, this is how the comics have painted Angel especially. The great thing Doyle & Cordy did for Angel was integrate him into society, albeit mostly in its shadows. In those five years, he had more character growth than the 100 years prior. For whatever reason, personality-wise, the comics have largely reset Angel to his BtVS S4 state.

I still enjoy Angel & Faith, but the dynamic for the duration of the canon Dark Horse run has lacked the family feel of pretty much every episode of Angel besides "Redefinition"
 
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Sineya
#43
The great thing Doyle & Cordy did for Angel was integrate him into society, albeit mostly in its shadows. In those five years, he had more character growth than the 100 years prior. For whatever reason, personality-wise, the comics have largely reset Angel to his BtVS S4 state.
But it can be reasoned by the Twilight fiasco.

Angel went back a few degrees after it; he is more brooding than ever, he is insecure - he has been relying a lot on Nadira these days, for instance, and has being loosing fights quite frequently: to Amy (from whom he was saved by Nadira), to the Catfish demon (from whom he was saved by Amy), to Illyria.

He has been drinking a lot, he was having nightmares because of Archaeus, his relationship with Faith is shaken, and on top of that, Buffy is with Spike.

He is all alone – no Connor, no Wes, no Lorne, no Gun, no Nina, and concerning Fred, he has to be alert all the time because of Illyria...

Does anyone else think Spike is being drawn distracting-ly young? In illustration years, he looks like a teenager to me...
It depends on the artist, but my favorites are exactly Rebekah Isaacs, and Megan Levens...
 
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#44
This is the guy who's now laying out pearls of wisdom like, "Wasn't all that hard. It's not like it's gonna last," "I wouldn't (cause trouble for Buffy and Spike) I don't have to." "He fixates on someone. Decides they're gonna solve all his problems," "Soul or not, he's still Spike." and, "It's the happiness that's always ending."

Either he's had one hell of an epiphany (and not a good one!) somewhere between Seasons 9 and 10, or he's the sorest loser in the Buffyverse.
I was reading #18 again, and Archaeus said something interesting, when Angel was attacking Spike:

I was giving you time to let your hates and fears and jealousies fester. Your lovers are a challenge, Slayer. Despite being animated by my essence, their souls let them resist my commands. Unless I ask them to do something they already desperately want.

Archaeus controlled Spike by remembering him of the thrill he used to have killing Slayers, and controlled Angel using his jealousy.
 
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Buffy Summers

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#45
Did Buffy honestly include Billy in the same breath as Kennedy and Riley? Lol

I liked this one too. Feels like the writers finally got into a groove. Also liked Angel's insight at the end.
 
I was reading #18 again, and Archaeus said something interesting, when Angel was attacking Spike:

I was giving you time to let your hates and fears and jealousies fester. Your lovers are a challenge, Slayer. Despite being animated by my essence, their souls let them resist my commands. Unless I ask them to do something they already desperately want.

Archaeus controlled Spike by remembering him of the thrill he used to have killing Slayers, and controlled Angel using his jealousy.
I took Archaeus' statement to mean they wanted to kill each other.
 
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#46
I took Archaeus' statement to mean they wanted to kill each other.
Spike was free of Archaeus's control; this time, he was working on Angel.

These two have a rivalry that is always present, but I don't think they really hate each other and want the other dead. Angel in this case was responding to his most recent and intense feeling - jealously, which was quite comprehensible; he was really blindsided by Buffy being with Spike, so he wanted to "kill" the rival.
 

Buffy Summers

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#47
Archaeus had been in Spike's head playing up his jealousy/insecurity, which was why Spike was acting so insecure. But regardless, Archaeus was talking to the both of them, not just Angel.
 

Carrie Hopewell

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#48
Not saying that Bangel hasn't been killed in the comics a bit but it can easily be revived (kinda like the characters). The fact that there is no romantic tension between Buffy and Angel is because you can't communicate that in the comics. Imagine the scene between Angel and Buffy in The Yoko Factor: they don't touch, they're cordial, although things are tense between them since they fought in Sanctuary and Angel is jealous. But all of this is communicated to the audience through the actors - their voices, David and Sarah's chemistry, subtle acting. Buffy is with Riley so she tends to him and not to Angel and she keeps her distance, yet we all know she's still in love with Angel.

In the comics all you see is what they say - the romantic tension is impossible to depict. The dialogue is less antagonistic than in The Yoko Factor but similar - it consists of Buffy and Angel making up and Angel giving his "approval" of Spuffy while making it clear he hates the idea. However Buffy is affected by Angel: Buffy and Angel initially embrace each other with their eyes closed, a picture of contentment; Buffy and Angel are awkward during the fight with what's-his-name (even Spike points this out), when what's-his-name breaks the door down Buffy jumps in front of Angel, not Spike, to protect him; then there's the scene in the cave when she's reflecting on her and Angel's talk and she actually gets pissed at Spike for babbling on about them, she missed Angel although they were never friends and have had almost no contact for a decade now.

Bangel is never completely dead. I'd say that it's as dead as it always as been. In Chosen, you could say Bangel was over but then Twilight happened. They are never going to kill Bangel completely.
 
The Bronze
The Bronze
I agree that the actors are greatly missed in the comics. Sometimes the writing is good enough to compensate but mostly not.

Scooby Corps

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#49
The fact that there is no romantic tension between Buffy and Angel is because you can't communicate that in the comics.
In the comics all you see is what they say - the romantic tension is impossible to depict.
The answer is in your post.

The lack of atmosphere isn't because of the medium. S08 managed quite convincingly conveying atmosphere & emotions via actions, the art and tight on-spot lines.

No, the lack of drama is because of Gage's over-relying on elaborate expositions in his dialogues. Basically, they talk, talk, talk endlessly way too much. S10 is a big therapy session/soap opera and Dr. Mike is actually Gage himself using Xander (but other characters as well, occasionally) as his mouthpiece. That's because it's so boring. The characters are telling us their motivations (Bangel Vs Spuffy, Spuffy, Willow breaking up with Aluwyn, Andrew's coming out, Buffy and Xander counseling Andrew in detail about his coming out, Xander/Dawn, Willow/Lake) and not showing them via actions, or better not showing them enough.

As for "Old Demons" and Spuffy Vs. Bangel; I thought the message was pretty clear. Spuffy is the deal, Bangel is over but everyone keeps his dignity and is making nice, oh and Twilight wasn't that bad, so forgive him already. They split up so Angel gets long talks with Xander and Willow, Spike with Dawn (prior with Giles of all people) to handle any insecurities. Then Buffy/Angel talk, Buffy/Spike talk, Angel/Spike talk, Spike saves Angel to emphasize his goodness, Angel gives the "If you hurt her..." speech then gives his approval and at the end the symbolic handshake and everyone hugs. I thought it was very contrived, kinda working off a checklist, with an utter lack in drama and almost every character is acting OOC to make it absolute clear that Spuffy is set and everyone has forgiven Angel for Twilight.

What is really good and gripping here are the fights with Archaeus and his minions.

Appropriate opening for parts of S10 if it were on TV (adjust/replace/exchange some characters):

 

Carrie Hopewell

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#50
As for "Old Demons" and Spuffy Vs. Bangel; I thought the message was pretty clear. Spuffy is the deal, Bangel is over but everyone keeps his dignity and is making nice, oh and Twilight wasn't that bad, so forgive him already. They split up so Angel gets long talks with Xander and Willow, Spike with Dawn (prior with Giles of all people) to handle any insecurities. Then Buffy/Angel talk, Buffy/Spike talk, Angel/Spike talk, Spike saves Angel to emphasize his goodness, Angel gives the "If you hurt her..." speech then gives his approval and at the end the symbolic handshake and everyone hugs. I thought it was very contrived, kinda working off a checklist, with an utter lack in drama and almost every character is acting OOC to make it absolute clear that Spuffy is set and everyone has forgiven Angel for Twilight.
I wasn't actually saying that Bangel wasn't over, rather that the Buffy/Angel interactions don't exclude the possibility of there being passion between them still. It's possible to read the issue that way. And yes, Spuffy is the real right now, but people were pointing out that Bangel was over because no passion exists between Buffy/Angel and I don't believe that. I think Bangel can be revived like any other character (if that makes sense or not is not the point) and that there will always be passion and desire between those two - that's pretty much cannon right now IMO.
I felt like Angel was acting in character, especially when he said all he wanted was for Buffy to be happy. I think Willow and the Willow/Angel interactions, the Spike/Angel interactions were believable. I didn't understand Buffy, but that's a given these days and the everyone loves Spike club is :eek:.

Nice video :D
 

Scooby Corps

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#51
I wasn't actually saying that Bangel wasn't over, rather that the Buffy/Angel interactions don't exclude the possibility of there being passion between them still. It's possible to read the issue that way. And yes, Spuffy is the real right now, but people were pointing out that Bangel was over because no passion exists between Buffy/Angel and I don't believe that. I think Bangel can be revived like any other character (if that makes sense or not is not the point) and that there will always be passion and desire between those two - that's pretty much cannon right now IMO.
I felt like Angel was acting in character, especially when he said all he wanted was for Buffy to be happy. I think Willow and the Willow/Angel interactions, the Spike/Angel interactions were believable. I didn't understand Buffy, but that's a given these days and the everyone loves Spike club is :eek:.
The last part wasn't a direct response to your post, rather my own comment to that issue.

Bangel was considered over because of Twilight since people couldn't imagine that Buffy & Co. would ever forgive him for his in minutest details planned betrayal, playing with them, murdering countless people, murdering Giles while not all the time being possessed. Well, Gage "proved" otherwise.

If we take the Willow from A&F S09, her exchange with Angel was okay and a continuation from that. However, I thought Gage wrote her overall bad and OOC in the "Family Reunion" issues and used her character for advertising Angel and Faith.

In "Old Demons" it's actually Giles, Dawn, but mostly Xander who are acting weird. Yeah Giles is "known" (lol) for willingly giving relationship advises especially to Spike of all people. Dawn is all too happy to cuddle with Angel, clumsily explained with the reset of her emotions. Worst is Xander. Xander hates Angel and had beaten the crap out of him for murdering Giles. Now he apologizes for it, says it was his rage-issues, is all friendly, and compares Twilight with his own betrayal of Buffy to save Dawn in S09. All because of the therapy he's undergoing that was never shown to us.

Old Demons's purpose is to show us that a) Angel is forgiven and one of the good guys again, and that b) everyone is happy with Spuffy by constantly letting them talk about it... c ) and to introduce the big bad of A&F S10.

And of course you're right. If the writers decide to make Bangel an issue again, for whatsoever reasons, they'll do it. The question is rather if they can create a purpose, credibility and good drama out of it.
 

Carrie Hopewell

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#52
Bangel was considered over because of Twilight since people couldn't imagine that Buffy & Co. would ever forgive him for his in minutest details planned betrayal, playing with them, murdering countless people, murdering Giles while not all the time being possessed. Well, Gage "proved" otherwise.

If we take the Willow from A&F S09, her exchange with Angel was okay and a continuation from that. However, I thought Gage wrote her overall bad and OOC in the "Family Reunion" issues and used her character for advertising Angel and Faith.

In "Old Demons" it's actually Giles, Dawn, but mostly Xander who are acting weird. Yeah Giles is "known" (lol) for willingly giving relationship advises especially to Spike of all people. Dawn is all too happy to cuddle with Angel, clumsily explained with the reset of her emotions. Worst is Xander. Xander hates Angel and had beaten the crap out of him for murdering Giles. Now he apologizes for it, says it was his rage-issues, is all friendly, and compares Twilight with his own betrayal of Buffy to save Dawn in S09. All because of the therapy he's undergoing that was never shown to us.

Old Demons's purpose is to show us that a) Angel is forgiven and one of the good guys again, and that b) everyone is happy with Spuffy by constantly letting them talk about it... c ) and to introduce the big bad of A&F S10.
I can see your point. It's just that, to me, Twilight happened so long ago that I never remember people are still upset about it. Your opinion is valid of course and I get why the Twilight thing ruined a lot of things. Personally I just forgive Angel for everything and continuity isn't something I care about too much in the comics. You know that I read the comics disinterestedly which is why I concede to a lot of things. Also, Angel is a good guy. Maybe that issue was the writer's way of fixing the Twilight mess and acknowledging that Angel was written out of character there.

I don't know about Dawn and Angel, I thought it was sweet :p And maybe Xander was too nice to Angel, but I liked how he admitted it that he had always been to hard on the guy (Twilight and Angelus excluded) and asked him how he coped with his anger. I though Xander was mature and there was a heartfelt exchange between them that totally made me forget about Xander's hatred of Angel.

And of course you're right. If the writers decide to make Bangel an issue again, for whatsoever reasons, they'll do it. The question is rather if they can create a purpose, credibility and good drama out of it.
That's what I meant. I don't believe it would have a purpose nor do I want it to happen - it would just drag Bangel down even more in the comics. I would like more friendly Buffy/Angel moments though. Honestly, Buffy has always forgiven Angel and she had sex with him after knowing what he had done. They might have been under some influence during the sex, but afterwards she told him he had her heart, although she didn't trust him, and she was happy to see him. I think Buffy only had to forgive Angel for killing Giles and that wasn't very difficult to do once she had him back, considering Angel was under Twilight's influence when he killed Giles.

And seriously, let Angel be Angel and not be possessed by some demon - other than his own of course ;)
 
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#53
I don't think Xander hates Angel anymore. It's been a long time and he didn't seem to show hatred towards either Angel and Spike since S7. I think Xander apologizing goes to the therapy sessions he goes to. Gage should have shown us at least one of those sessions.
 
GoSpuffy
GoSpuffy
I thought we were going to see dr Mike for sure, I kept wondering if he'd turn out o be a demon at some point.