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Discussion of Buffy 10.28 "Own It, Part III" - Released 6/22/16 (Dark Horse)

Buffy Summers

Yataro
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Writer: Christos Gage Penciller: Rebekah Isaacs

Xander and Dawn take on an incredible journey of dimension hopping, trying their best to return home. Meanwhile, things are bad between Buffy and all the Scoobies... Think the world can learn to look out for itself?

Source: Wikipedia
 

Scooby Corps

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Yeah, the Dander arc is the only good thing in this issue, even though this dimension hopping is kinda getting old.

Spike is a wimp. Period. I was so hoping for the miserable end of Spuffy. Instead, I get endless misery. Well, be careful what you wish for, there must have been a vengeance demon around.

I can't follow Buffy's thoughts here at all. First, she gets incomprehensibly more and more jarring and antagonizing. Now, likewise incomprehensible, she suddenly makes an 180° turn and is now reasonable and takes charge? And where does her "brilliant" plan come from? Between the beatings she gave Archduchus Venobia? Where is the connection? In "Chosen" we had at least Caleb's remark of the loneliness of the Slayer which had triggered her plan. Here is nothing but hot gas.
The only thing I liked about her is that she chose to ignore Spike's pathetic excuse for a break-up and didn't break down in tears or something like that.

I hated the Willow arc. I knew it. It looked like she finally gets something to do for her own development. But no, it's just a tool to have her at odds with Buffy and then to let her fail so she humbly returns with her tail between her legs. She deserves better.

Giles is predominantly non-existent in this issue.

I don't know. The whole conflict, as well as the "reunion" of the Scoobies, seems contrived and unreal. I don't feel it.

Still try to find the point in Andrew. I rather would have liked to have his pages filled with Giles and Willow sulking on the couch, talking about his tea preferences.

Conclusion: One of the worst issues so far. I only hope Willow comes relatively unscarred out of this mess and gets her own comic.
 

white avenger

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Spike didn't even have the guts to break up!



Dander's the only positive thing in the last arc of S10.
Or maybe, he had the courage to stand by his feelings for the woman he loves, and to stay and fight for what he really wants.

I guess it's just a case of the cup being half full or half empty.
 

Sternbeeere

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Or maybe, he had the courage to stand by his feelings for the woman he loves, and to stay and fight for what he really wants.

I guess it's just a case of the cup being half full or half empty.
I am thinking of half full in Spikes case, he is very devoted on one hand and very determined with regards to his feelings, so the case of courage would fit his character
 

GoSpuffy

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I hoped all along this was a red herring to get people to read the issue and see what happens. It's still Joss Whedon so it's unlikely anyone gets a happy ending but this story line does not feel complete. So far during this relationship all we've seen is Buffy and Spike start to put the past behind them, apologies have been given and accepted. We haven't covered any new ground. You would think if they go to the trouble of putting them together it must be to tell us a new story which they haven't done yet. We've seen a slayer date a vampire twice and both times it ended badly, but we haven't seen a slayer in a long term healthy adult relationship with a vampire. Hopefully this conversation about what their relationship will be moving forward will allow Spike to be a bit more secure and confident instead of being all soulful and apolgetic and Angel light. The best Spike we saw this season was when Angel was in town and he was his old snarky badass self. Bring back Spuffy with attitude, in love yes, but edgier and funnier because that is what we all love about them. Happily ever after doesn't have to be boring!!!
 

white avenger

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You would think if they go to the trouble of putting them together it must be to tell us a new story which they haven't done yet
Well, Buffy and Angel had one full Season, then part of another before things went South (I don't count Season 3 because by then they knew about the curse, so no happy making for Buffy and Angel). Riley had just about the same. There was no real Spuffy romance before well into Season 10, so if things go along established pattern lines, assuming that it really is a pattern and not just a coincidence, the break up will be somewhere past the middle of Season 11. Of course, I've been wrong before...
 
GoSpuffy
GoSpuffy
That's what I've been thinking too. Season ends are for big bad fighting and coming together with scoobies. Mid season is when you break up and eat ice cream with the girls.

Carrie Hopewell

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Well, Buffy and Angel had one full Season, then part of another before things went South (I don't count Season 3 because by then they knew about the curse, so no happy making for Buffy and Angel). Riley had just about the same. There was no real Spuffy romance before well into Season 10, so if things go along established pattern lines, assuming that it really is a pattern and not just a coincidence, the break up will be somewhere past the middle of Season 11. Of course, I've been wrong before...
When are they going to break up!?! ;) As someone who doesn't read the comics, it seems like everyone is always talking about the imminent Spike/Buffy break up. Can someone explain to me why they are breaking up? Or how they got together? Buffy didn't seem cookie dough to me in season 8 (which I did read) or the few issues of season 9 I skimmed through and the mortal/vampire thing is always an issue. Also, has Buffy said "I love you" to Spike? Why is Spike trying to break up with her?
 

GoSpuffy

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@Carrie Hopewell Spike and Buffy have been very happy together in S10. They've put the past behind them, apologized for the wrongs they've done and been in a really happy place. Spike is the best fighting partner she has, because he's a strong warrier and because he follows her without question. Yes, they have said "I love you" to each other. They are practically living together although technically Spike is Xanders room mate. The only problem I have with the relationship is Spike is not being very Spikey. He is too nice and not snarky and sarcastic enough for my liking. He's had a few moments talking tough with Harmony and Angel but I wish he could be more bad ass, the way we love him to be. Spike is trying to break up with Buffy for "her own good" and because this new soul having Spike is kind of over board on the guilt tripping and thinking he is not good enough for Buffy. Buffy seems to have put that to bed temporarily and they are still together. I think the reason most people are waiting for the break up is because there are no long term happy relationships in the Buffyverse. Therefore, it's just a matter of time, even though clearly Buffy and Spike are soul mates, the ultimate OTP and end game all rolled into one neat package. But you know, I'm a Spuffy fan so of course I think that. :)
 

Carrie Hopewell

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Spike and Buffy have been very happy together in S10. They've put the past behind them, apologized for the wrongs they've done and been in a really happy place. Spike is the best fighting partner she has, because he's a strong warrier and because he follows her without question. Yes, they have said "I love you" to each other. They are practically living together although technically Spike is Xanders room mate. The only problem I have with the relationship is Spike is not being very Spikey. He is too nice and not snarky and sarcastic enough for my liking. He's had a few moments talking touch with Harmony and Angel but I wish he could be more bad ass, the way we love him to be. Spike is trying to break up with Buffy for "her own good" and because this new soul having Spike is kind of over board on the guilt tripping and thinking he is not good enough for Buffy. Buffy seems to have put that to bed temporarily and they are still together. I think the reason most people are waiting for the break up is because there are no long term happy relationships in the Buffyverse. Therefore, it's just a matter of time, even though clearly Buffy and Spike are soul mates, the ultimate OTP and end game all rolled into one neat package. But you know, I'm a Spuffy fan so of course I think that. :)
Thanks for the answer :). Yeah, Spike not being very Spike is also something I hear being said. I bet a lot of people would disagree with the extremely positive picture you're painting of them though ;) Why is he doing the "for her own good" break up routine? What is it that he thinks she's missing on? Also, the can't have grow old or have children together issue as been resolved? Or is it being avoided? With Buffy it always seems to come down to the idea of normalcy she likes to cling to.
 

GoSpuffy

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Thanks for the answer :). Yeah, Spike not being very Spike is also something I hear being said. I bet a lot of people would disagree with the extremely positive picture you're painting of them though ;) Why is he doing the "for her own good" break up routine? What is it that he thinks she's missing on? Also, the can't have grow old or have children together issue as been resolved? Or is it being avoided? With Buffy it always seems to come down to the idea of normalcy she likes to cling to.
he thinks Buffy wants kids and to grow old with someone, Buffy says that doesn't matter she wants to try with him and see what happens.
 
Carrie Hopewell
Carrie Hopewell
Sounds familiar...

white avenger

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When are they going to break up!?!
Not necessarily that Buffy and Spike HAVE to break up as that Joss seems to hate the idea of anyone, especially Buffy, ever getting a "happily ever after" scenario.

I think the reason most people are waiting for the break up is because there are no long term happy relationships in the Buffyverse
Pretty much, yeah. The closest that we ever saw were Willow and Tara, Xander and Anya, and, possibly, Angel and Cordy, all of which ended with the significant other being killed in a more or less permanent fashion (nobody EVER dies forever in the comics. Just ask Superman, Captain America, or Fred) If Joss is consistent in anything, he is consistent in this.

Why is he doing the "for her own good" break up routine?
Because Joss doesn't want to kill off Spike for a second time, at least not yet, and having one partner leave for the benefit of the other, or themselves, or both, is far better than having them part enemies, or just falling out of love. It's more poignant that way.

he thinks Buffy wants kids and to grow old with someone, Buffy says that doesn't matter she wants to try with him and see what happens.
This is pretty much the same argument that Angel used, along, of course, with the moment of complete happiness clause in his ensouled status, and it's a common excuse with any immortal character in fiction. (He also used it to torpedo the hulk/Black Widow romance in "Avengers: Age Of Ultron the Hulk) Almost exclusively, such people are incapable of having children, and the idea of being with someone, watching them grow old and die, while they themselves remain young and vital gets back to that poignant thing I mentioned earlier. A simple way to avoid that would be to establish the possibility that Buffy, due to the demon element that gave her her Slayer powers when she was Called, became potentially immortal as well. It's a theory that has never been tested, of course, because no Slayer in history has lived past the age of 25, and they all, apparently, died in combat. Being immortal wouldn't be the same as being invulnerable. Buffy could still die, just like any normal human, but her demon legacy could keep her from aging, or at least have a much longer life span than normal humans. It wouldn't even have to be a fact, just a logical assumption suggested by Giles or some other expert in the field.

As for the original question, I don't want Buffy and Spike to break up, and I honestly hope that they never do. It's almost as good as having Joan and Randy finally be together. Almost. I just follow the old adage, "Prepare for the worst. That way, anything else is always a treat."
 
GoSpuffy
GoSpuffy
I'm with you all the way until Jandy. I love Spuffy first, Jandy second. :)

Stoney

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Yeah, Spike not being very Spike is also something I hear being said.
I do think the thing to remember here and now is that trying to have an healthy souled relationship is something totally new for Spike. He is figuring out the relationship stuff to a great extent and I don't think he is talking about that or putting Buffy on a pedestal so much as what has disrupted things from his pov. He has his own hang ups and insecurities that plague him about still being a monster and he had needed to have an inspirational character to his souled self and she became this beacon that was not about her as a person but ideas and wants for himself represented. He is trying to live a new life this season where he isn't totally focussing on his love interest but is trying to belong and live a life out of the dark and all of this flows from his S9. It is easy to fall in the trap of seeing a character as being odd, ooc or some such because they are changing and yet isn't that what we wish for them too?? I think there is a great deal of people wanting characters to stay static in their preferred era for them and this seems particularly prevalent with Spike. Or people want to simplify him and just have the snark/banter of AtS (just my opinion). Personally I find Gage writes him true to S7 and feel that S10 has been progressive for him and logically so from the show. *shrugs*
 

Carrie Hopewell

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I think there is a great deal of people wanting characters to stay static in their preferred era for them and this seems particularly prevalent with Spike.
Yeah, people do that a bit, you're right, but not all character development is logical or welcome. Buffy has a tendency to practically re-write the characters, altering them to the point of being unrecognizable sometimes. Challenging people's perceptions about a character or taking them on a different path isn't bad per se, but it doesn't work all the time. You can't lose the essence of the character. As for Spike, I don't know or enjoy the character enough to have an opinion.

Or people want to simplify him and just have the snark/banter of AtS (just my opinion).
I don't think it's about simplifying him. It's more about preferring him like he was in the early seasons, a villain or comic relief. However, even people who don't care much about Spike engage in discussions about his souless actions, his love for Buffy, etc. I think he's a character people take seriously even if they don' like what he's become.
 

Stoney

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Yeah, people do that a bit, you're right, but not all character development is logical or welcome. Buffy has a tendency to practically re-write the characters, altering them to the point of being unrecognizable sometimes. Challenging people's perceptions about a character or taking them on a different path isn't bad per se, but it doesn't work all the time. You can't lose the essence of the character. As for Spike, I don't know or enjoy the character enough to have an opinion.
Well there is a really strong, progressive path for Spike through the series imo. When they changed his direction the ties they brought into his character through the insights into his background/motivators gave depth which drew cohesion between the seasons rather than obliterating what had passed. He has some strongly established and reoccurring themes that are the ones which Gage is still developing and playing with now and that is why it works well in continuation for me.

I don't think it's about simplifying him. It's more about preferring him like he was in the early seasons, a villain or comic relief. However, even people who don't care much about Spike engage in discussions about his souless actions, his love for Buffy, etc. I think he's a character people take seriously even if they don' like what he's become.
Well by default that is simplifying him if you prefer to lose the details/development of later seasons and halt him at an earlier stage. AtS sought to return to that comedy relief angle in the main. They did expand some by touching on what it meant for him to start to become his own hero souled but then the enforced inclusion of his character by the network had him buffeting nonsensically in the wake of the others to be part of the second half of the season. Characterisation at those later stages came second to the overall plot that they were rapidly scraping together when told it wouldn't be renewed and the comedy was detrimentally put above all at points that only fanwank fixes. ;)

Basically, when people talk of Spike not behaving like himself I don't think there is a lot of context being applied as he is on a lot of new ground at the moment that would very obviously draw out some different responses and the ones they are showing in him make sense. Plus they aren't out of keeping with issues and attitudes he has had before, they work with or move on from them. I do think his uncertainty and insecurities has had him taking a more cautious approach in the main. Not 'out of character' though, just more thoughtful than brash and he can certainly be both. I suspect that his moment in this issue with Buffy may ease this a little and result in him gaining a little more fire at times. A lot depends on how he deals with those reoccurring insecurities if they keep flaring now he is truly trying to live amongst the group. That's just my take on it all anyway. :D
 
GoSpuffy
GoSpuffy
Nice analysis. :) I wish there had been a S6 Angel because I think Spike would have been more interesting once he was fully integrated.

Buffy Summers

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Seemed a little too easy getting Dawn & Xander back. I hope this means Buffy & Spike are going to move forward into a more real relationship and not just Spike following Buffy around some more.

Also, so Willow breaks up with Lake because the military kicked her out (and probably rightly so)?

I don't know. The whole conflict, as well as the "reunion" of the Scoobies, seems contrived and unreal. I don't feel it.
Totally agree - it felt very cartoon-ish to me. "Everyone let's high five and go save the day!" lol

Or maybe, he had the courage to stand by his feelings for the woman he loves, and to stay and fight for what he really wants.
Well, he wasn't standing by his feelings much when he was breaking up with her...
 

GoSpuffy

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Relationships were weak this year, between people dating and between friends. I hope that S11 will put this behind us and focus more on the big bads and have the relationships in the background. I think Willow and Lake might reconcile, Xander and Dawn might reconcile and Buffy and Spike will be a couple but more focused on fighting rather than inner turmoil. Looks like poor Giles will be single again. Maybe Giles and Angel should give it a go. :) Just kidding.
 

Sternbeeere

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and Buffy and Spike will be a couple but more focused on fighting rather than inner turmoil.
That is what I hope, I do not like the other pairings though and do not care for them either way

Generally: I was disappointed about the Xander/Dawn arc, being a Dawn fan. There was not much behind their arc, I was hoping for some bigger bad than what they have seen or some other, more important or more creative thing.
 

Carrie Hopewell

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Maybe Giles and Angel should give it a go. :)
LOL. How would that conversation go?

Angel - "So listen, I know I killed your girlfriend that one time and also killed you that one time... *stares at the ground* But, hey, everything worked out fine *awkward pause, looks at Giles* do you maybe wanna... date?"

I'm sure he would need liquid courage to brave that talk...


Or Giles version of the conversation, taking a page from Buffy's book:

"Well, huh, I got a thing, you're maybe feeling a thing, and there could be a thing. *cleans glasses* How do you feel about O negative?"

Considering Giles is kinda of a teenager right now, it would be just like old times for Angel.

But please, I'm obviously joking! Don't get any ideas... Angel/Giles would be wrong :p
 
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