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Discussion of Buffy 9.04 "Freefall: Part 4"- Released 12/14/11 (Dark Horse)

dexeded

Scooby
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Black Thorn
It's a demon, it cannot be innocent.

Or can it? It's a double edged sword. Innocence implies the existence of free will. If demons can be innocent then they also have a free will, much like humans. You may ask, what's so bad about demons having a free will? For one, it completely ruins the entire franchise.

There's no difference between Angel and Angelus because they both have a free will, therefore Buffy should have thrown him back to hell the moment he crawled back. Soul or no soul - it becomes meaningless. Oz is responsible for every murder he committed as a werewolf. Demons are no different than humans so every Slayer, a protector of the innocent, is obliged to slay not only evil demons but also evil humans. Vampires have a free will so Buffy has slain hundreds ( thousands? ) of innocent newly risen vampires.

Do you want your Buffy to be like that? Do YOU? No? So stop caring about this innocence nonsense and JOIN THE CAUSE! TOGETHER WE SHALL CLEANSE OUR HOME OF DEMONIC FILTH!


Um...yeah. I know that morality in Buffy has always sucked but this time the writers in all their pretentiousness have really written themselves into a corner. Mind my words, it will only get more and more ridiculous.

But it has been established during the actual TV series that there are benign demons, like Clem. Vampires are different from most demons because they have had their soul, their morality, removed, and have an inborn propensity for destruction.
 

EVIL UU

Scooby
Joined
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like Clem

Clem is a one of a kind anomaly, like a vampire with a soul. Clem is Angel, you heard it here first.

Vampires are different from most demons because they have had their soul, their morality, removed, and have an inborn propensity for destruction.

No, they're not. Vampires are demons, they are often called hybrids by other demons but that doesn't change what they are. Basically, a demon that enters our world has to be contained, regular demons get their own bodies, demons who become vampires take over a body of a dead human ( memories and personality traits included ) after a ritual of mutual bloodsucking. Demons are malevolent, evil or downright homicidal, hence the name - demons.

The mythology and demon "morality" mostly make sense up to the end of season 5, demons are evil, Buffy kills demons, end of story - it's simple and it works. In season 6 things like continuity, established mythology and basic logic were thrown out of the window and thanks to that we get things like zompires.

Zompires. Somebody reboot this franchise or something, please....
 

Anca

Potential
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I wonder if anything happened to either Buffy or Spike while they were "connected" via Severin. Something life changing maybe?
 

VisionGirl

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The mythology and demon "morality" mostly make sense up to the end of season 5, demons are evil, Buffy kills demons, end of story - it's simple and it works. In season 6 things like continuity, established mythology and basic logic were thrown out of the window and thanks to that we get things like zompires.

I disagree. First of all, this happened earlier than the end of season 5, it started with Anya at the end of season 3, then continued into the first episode and season of Angel (Doyle, the demons hiding from the Scourge, the one Wesley was following in Parting Gifts, Lorne, etc). Actually, we can even go back to season 2 of Buffy with Oz as a werewolf. Demons do not equal evil in the Buffyverse. They just don't. And we're shown quite clearly that humans can be just as evil as demons (Ethan, Gwen Post, the lawyers at Wolfram & Hart, etc). I just simply disagree that everything was thrown out the window in season 6. Things were murkier much earlier than that.
 

EVIL UU

Scooby
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[MENTION=10354]VisionGirl[/MENTION]

Anya became a human when she lost her powers in season 3, Oz was a human being most of the time. When Anya became a demon again Buffy nailed her to a wall with a sword - she should have done that the moment she learned about Anya's demon status though. Oh well.

And we're shown quite clearly that humans can be just as evil as demons

Humans have a free will. Demons - not exactly. If you choose to believe that demons - all demons or just some demons do have a free will you need to accept the consequences I wrote about earlier.
 

Leeson

Tumbling thru Sunnyhell
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East and west of you
[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION]

Ana-movic demons weren't evil (even if they did partake in some outdated rituals), Lorne, Kwaini demons, Brachen demons, Cordelia, Lloyd, Merl, the Oden-Tal, Lister demons...

And, oh yes, Slayers. Who are part demon. (And I know this wasn't perfectly established before season seven, but it was pretty fanon by then.)

Furthermore, many demons are shown to be either mercenaries (thus not necessarily an intrinsic evil) or not necessarily evil (even if not 'good'). It became more common after the third season of Buffy, and especially on Angel, because the first three seasons of Buffy were very heavily black-and-white with morality, good-vs-evil, et cetera.

It made sense for that point in the series, but the concept was expanded as Buffy herself grew as a Slayer and learned the nuances of the job.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
[No message]

wickedtiger86

Scooby
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America
Sineya
I just got this issue yesterday and I liked it a lot actually.

Though I am saddened that Spike seems to think, after all that he's been through with her, he thinks, now, that she needs normal? I kinda feel like he's deflecting the fact that he feels that he's not good enough for her and trying to rationalize it . . .


Kind of love that it was the regular guy that saved Buffy and Spike. Also, I was genuinely upset at the idea of Spike being destroyed like that and I am wondering if there will be any long term repercussions for him or for Buffy.

And I like to see Buffy and Willow getting along. Always nice.
 

brinkster130

Riley's BFF
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Sineya
So why didn't Severin just take Buffy's power why she was asleep at his apartment? He could have taken her powers then called the police and claimed she broke it...the luring her into a trap seems unnecessary.

It will be interesting to see what was done to Buffy and Spike when Severin touched them.


A big issue I'm having with s9 thus far:

The seem to totally rewriting the vampire mythos they set up in the show. Vampires had no control nor did they have the ability to love so the idea that Severin and his gf wanted to be turned with the idea that they'd be together forever makes zero sense. Also seems silly that Severin is blaming Buffy for his gf becoming a horrible demon...hello vampire! That is the definition.
 

Buffy Summers

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I don't like that Buffy in the end was saved by a gun. And I was hoping Rowena was gone for good, not excited to have to read about her again this season.

So why didn't Severin just take Buffy's power why she was asleep at his apartment? He could have taken her powers then called the police and claimed she broke it...the luring her into a trap seems unnecessary

He needed to charge up with all those vamps in order to be strong enough to take her, and also he wanted to frame her for the crime.


A big issue I'm having with s9 thus far:

The seem to totally rewriting the vampire mythos they set up in the show. Vampires had no control nor did they have the ability to love so the idea that Severin and his gf wanted to be turned with the idea that they'd be together forever makes zero sense. Also seems silly that Severin is blaming Buffy for his gf becoming a horrible demon...hello vampire! That is the definition.

Well, I think it's like back in the day with Ford: they didn't know the reality of what they were getting into. They had glamorized it to the point it didn't at all resemble the truth.

:)
 

Tofik vampie

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He needed to charge up with all those vamps in order to be strong enough to take her, and also he wanted to frame her for the crime.

Well, he didn't needed to. When Buffy was sleeping she was defenceless, so he didn't had to fight her at all, he could just steal her powers when she was sleeping. Remember episode "Living Conditions" when Buffy's roommate was stealing her soul when Buffy was sleeping? Severin could do exactly the same. If he wanted to frame Buffy he could just easily, call the police and tell them that Buffy broke into his apartment and that she told him about all those zompires corpses. Also he worked with Simone, and Simone wanted Buffy for herself - for some unexplained reason.

And that's one of my biggest problems with season 9 - what characters are doing really make no goddamn sense - I mean why Buffy even trusted this guy in the first place. Those are some huge plot holes...
 

Tofik vampie

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The way I read the issue is that he needed to charge up with vamps to be able to steal Buffy's power - not so that he could fight her.

Well, why? I never seen him charging before he steal someone's powers. But don't worry it gets worse... And I had high hopes for season 9. :(
 

Tofik vampie

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Because he SAID he needed to charge up before he could steal Buffy's powers...

When? Can you give me an exact quote? Also this don't explain anything: if he have all those zompires trapped at warehouse he could feed on them just before he lured Buffy into his appartment.
 

Buffy Summers

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Page 7:

Severin: You don't deserve the power you have. So I'm going to take it.
Buffy: You can do that?
Severin: I just needed to charge up.

He also didn't know he was going to find Buffy on that particular night, so he might have sucked the power out of all those vamps for nothing. I'm just saying how I explain what Severin did. You can believe whatever you want, as you seem pretty set on it being a mistake. It's not that big of a deal to me.
 

Tofik vampie

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Page 7:

Severin: You don't deserve the power you have. So I'm going to take it.
Buffy: You can do that?
Severin: I just needed to charge up.

He also didn't know he was going to find Buffy on that particular night, so he might have sucked the power out of all those vamps for nothing. I'm just saying how I explain what Severin did. You can believe whatever you want, as you seem pretty set on it being a mistake. It's not that big of a deal to me.

I think they should make it more clear if they wanted to go with: "I need charge up to steal you powers!" thing. As I said he never before or aftre needed charging up before he stolen someone's powers. And it is a big deal because if Severin could steal Buffy's powers when she was sleeping then he is quite stupid for not doing it... Also what he is feeding on? Buffy was a robot, and he can only feed on mystical energy. Unfortunately "Buffy" comic is not very well writen. :(
 

Stake fodder

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This was a quick-moving issue! Several posters have mentioned that Severin could have taken Buffy's powers while she was asleep. But we see that taking Buffy's powers isn't instantaneous, as she has a lot. So I agree with @Buffy Summers above that he needed to go to his vampire-storage site, in order to gain more power, and also so that Buffy would be fighting on two fronts. Plus, as the saying goes, BIMD (Because It's More Dramatic). :)

"She needs normal," and perhaps Buffy will get it in the form of Officer Dowling. But I don't think "normal" will ever work for Buffy, as we've already seen this season. Meanwhile, Spike can tell himself he's being noble once again, just like how he didn't go to Rome in AtS S5.

Eldre Koh has been imprisoned for thousands of years, but he knows how to operate a speedboat? And "Vampires and water aren't exactly best friends." Since when? Unless it's holy water, and I doubt SF Bay is.

Severin is a rather petty villain. He just wants someone to blame for his girlfriend's bad choices. Maybe they couldn't have anticipated zompires, but there were plenty of ways vampirism could have gone wrong. Without souls, they may have hated each other. So, I'm glad he's not the only villain this season.

Finally, my pet peeve: the nights full of stars. You really don't see that many stars in the night sky of a city!
 
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