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Discussion of Giles 11.03 - Released 4/25/18 (Dark Horse)

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Black Thorn
#1
Love is complicated. For a guy and a girl, both aware the other is keeping secrets, they shouldn't even consider love. But for Giles and Roux there hasn't been a choice: uneasy allies, they've been falling in love while working together against a demon. But "trying" to trust one another isn't working anymore. Roux will finally tell Giles her secrets ... or he may have to kill her.

Source: Comixology
[automerge]1524709059[/automerge]
Has anyone else read this issue yet? I liked it better than the previous two. I'm intrigued by Roux's story and looking forward to the next issue.

I put together a YouTube playlist for the mixtape as I read, so I thought I'd share: Giles #3 - YouTube
 
Buffy Summers
Buffy Summers
Thanks for posting it (I was on vacation) :)

WillowFromBuffy

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#2
I am not sure if things are getting better or just less terrible. Improvement, either way.

The main problem is that we are not moving forward. We are just expanding outwards.
 
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#3
I thought it was awful, although the pacing and dialogue were slightly better than the first two issues.

I hope Giles kills Roux by the end of the mini.
 
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#4
I have to read it again but if I'm anywhere near right in my reasoning, I'm in awe of Whedon. If I'm close to right, then IMO, it's stunning and the seeds of this were planted in S6/7. I reserve the right to change my mind.
 
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#5
I have to read it again but if I'm anywhere near right in my reasoning, I'm in awe of Whedon. If I'm close to right, then IMO, it's stunning and the seeds of this were planted in S6/7. I reserve the right to change my mind.
Can you umm... elaborate, maybe? Cause maybe I'm just dumb, but I'm really not following you.
 
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Black Thorn
#6
This is a good analysis/review of the issue: https://lilyginnyblackv2.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F173323272354 [automerge]1524762781[/automerge]
It seems important to me that Roux's hair is blue here:


And I keep thinking about this panel from #1:



I'm super curious about the nature of this demon! And Blue!
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The line from that panel from #1 is echoed in #3:



And from #2, we have Giles seeing himself as possessed by Seed, and also seeing his reflection in Seed's sinkhole:





The line "Who else can one be?" has a double meaning, since Seed refers to itself as "one" and we know the demon was created because of Giles' blood...
 
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thetopher

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#7
Until I read the above excepts I only had a vague understanding of the word 'flabbergasted'.

But I've been flabbergasted by a darn comic. Weird.
 
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#8
I doubt this really means anything but I was looking into the name Taara, which Baldwin called Roux, and Wikipedia says this:
Taara (variations of the name include Tooru, Tharapita and Tarapitha) is a prominent god in Estonian mythology. There is an active debate whether or not Tharapita is derived from the Scandinavian Thor.
I thought it was interesting in light of Christos mentioning Thor: Ragnarök in his interview the other day about Season 12. Also, the story of Ragnarök is told in the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda, and Roux's friend is named Ebba (which is obviously a different name but looks similar).

Baldwin also says "My Taara, my star," and apparently Taara means star in Sanskrit, so that might be the more sensible reference. :)
 

thetopher

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#9
So, after reading this I'd say this was the best issue so far because...I was easier to follow? It still isn't a particularly good story but getting more background on Roux is a good thing.
In theory.
I dunno, a mass-up of a good idea (obviously an ex-slave vampire is going to be two kinds of outcast and that's pretty awful) with a lot of muddled thinking. It could be interesting- if its explained right- but I have a nagging feeling that we aren't going to get an explanation as to why Roux is special, she just is.
Great, Spike, Billy and now this; super-special snowflake character trifecta.
On the other hand some of the story was diverting enough and there were even small parts- references to the show by Giles for examples- which made me feel like this could exist in the Buffyverse, for the first time ever.

Oh, and the dialogue is STILL terrible. Giles still doesn't sound at all like Giles (too much knowing slang) and Roux is pretty punchable with all her generalizations about a whole bunch of things...
 

thetopher

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#10
I finally twigged what all this reminds me of- I've just never seen it in canon fiction before;

So you're looking at Buffyverse fanfic, trawling through the many, many pairings on all your favorite sites but you've read them all. And then you see a Buffyverse character/OC pairing.
Some darling writer has written a piece where 'their' character gets to interact with somebody from the show they love...
Well, you say, why not, I've got some time to kill and it might not be that bad.

So you read it- out of morbid curiosity- and quickly come to the conclusion that the story really isn't about the Buffyverse character at all, its just about them 'discovering' this different, intrigue 'original' character and- of course- almost falling deeply in love with them even if it doesn't make sense.

The original character isn't QUITE a Mary Sue, but they still have a unique, mysterious back story and strange powers that fascinate; like glowing tattoos perhaps, or being a 'good' vampire for no apparent reason.
I mean, re-reading these past 4 issues there is precious little about Giles or the growth of his character and all about who Roux is and how she is linked to this demon bad guy that Giles is supposed to be trying to expose.

The only real difference between this comic and say, a story I read where Faith meets a hot werewolf guy who rides a motor cycle and talks like Duke Nuke 'Em (and who she falls in love and has mucho hot sex with) is that that writer at least knew enough about Faith's character and back story to depict her competently.
This writer can't even manage that; an example being that Giles keeps on calling people 'mate'. *snort*
 
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Black Thorn
#11
Erika Alexander talked a bit about having to work to keep Giles the hero in this interview:

What was the most exciting part of the story to develop?

Well, I had to remember through this whole thing, the hero is Giles. After I said, “Oh, I know how to write this! Somebody about to get his ass whooped!” [Laughs] And then I realized, no not him. He’s the hero, he’s gonna learn something. He’s gonna get a little ass-kicking, but he’s also gotta do some ass-kicking. It really makes you think about the pathologies that guide us, that are given to us, and what you adopt. You got the hurt and pain of slavery, you got the hurt and pain of poverty, and all these things sort of pressing down on you. And then you got the things you take in that we create around, the anger and rage. To me, the fun part of writing that was asking myself the same questions in a new way and making sure that I service the hero, Giles. For a writer as new as me, that was a little difficult, but I tried my best.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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#12
I think it may have been a better idea to make Roux the hero and set the story during the civil war. As it is now, I feel the side character has a very convoluted backstory that doesn't feel relevant to the actual plot.
 
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#13
Well, I had to remember through this whole thing, the hero is Giles.
You got the hurt and pain of slavery, you got the hurt and pain of poverty, and all these things sort of pressing down on you.
For a writer as new as me, that was a little difficult, but I tried my best.
Excuse me, but...

WHY THE **** IS THIS PERSON WRITING A GILES MINI-SERIES?

Sorry... But really, what's this person's credentials? Of all the writers in the world, why in the world would DH/Joss pick this person to write a comic book about an old British man who became a teenager? And whatever happened to exploring issues in American eductaion?

This just reeks of identity politics. "Hey, let's give a black woman a push, because there's not enough black women in comics/the Buffyverse." For the love of god, kick this woman out, and never let her write a Buffy comic ever again.
 
thetopher
thetopher
Agreed about it reeking of Identity Politics. I forgot to put that in my post.

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
#14
I'm not mad at them about using this mini to explore this socio-political agenda (and actually I feel like props to them for FINALLY addressing race head-on after ignoring it for 11 seasons). But I will say that if they do this in s12 - if Joss uses s12 to make some big meta-commentary without fully respecting the 12 season of Buffyverse mythology or without regards to Buffyverse characters I will be very upset.

I don't want the Buffyverse to be used as a mere tool for Joss to make his political points. He can make those on twitter (and this is coming from someone who is politically aligned with many of his positions). The property deserves more than that.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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#15
WHY THE **** IS THIS PERSON WRITING A GILES MINI-SERIES?

Sorry... But really, what's this person's credentials? Of all the writers in the world, why in the world would DH/Joss pick this person to write a comic book about an old British man who became a teenager? And whatever happened to exploring issues in American eductaion?
Eh? Are you serious? What was Joss's credentials for creating Buffy or Will and Tara?
This just reeks of identity politics.
Oh no! Identity politics cooties! Pushing the subversive agenda of how slavery was kinda unpleasant.
 

thetopher

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#16
Pushing the subversive agenda of how slavery was kinda unpleasant.
Not subversive but played out enough that you need to have something interesting and original to say about it, and this story doesn't have that. It's all 'hey look, the black vampire's killing a confederate soldier! 'Cause confederate automatically equals racist so he's got it coming!' Lame.
Or hey, they could've focused on the slavery that took place all over the place for many hundreds of years before that. That might've been different.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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#17
Not subversive but played out enough that you need to have something interesting and original to say about it, and this story doesn't have that. It's all 'hey look, the black vampire's killing a confederate soldier! 'Cause confederate automatically equals racist so he's got it coming!' Lame.
Or hey, they could've focused on the slavery that took place all over the place for many hundreds of years before that. That might've been different.
Slavery is too significant a part of American history to ever be played out in fiction. If you want to write about the poor Dixie farmer who enlisted to protect his way of life or the internal slavery of Africa, then go ahead, but African-American writers aren't done sorting out the trauma of their forefathers' displacement or the current state of inequality. We're all fans of a show about a white girl who's upset she doesn't get to be homecoming queen. I think we can bear a single story on racism.

I think few people are going to claim that this series is a great or important work of fiction, but to claim that the writers race or gender disqualifies her for writing about a white man or that the themes she explores are unworthy of attention is just silly.
 
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#18
Eh? Are you serious? What was Joss's credentials for creating Buffy or Will and Tara?
I wasn't saying that she couldn't write Giles because she was a black woman. I'm saying that because, if you read that interview, she clearly has no interest in writing about someone like Giles, and it shows! We wouldn't even be talking about this if the mini wasn't crap. Hell, issue 3 was the best issue yet, because it barely had any Giles in it.
I also said that because I don't think you should hire people because of their race or gender, and it honestly feels like this is exactly why she was hired.

Oh no! Identity politics cooties! Pushing the subversive agenda of how slavery was kinda unpleasant.
I don't mind the Buffyverse exploring slavery, but they're doing it in an inorganic, boring, and messy way.

We're all fans of a show about a white girl who's upset she doesn't get to be homecoming queen. I think we can bear a single story on racism.
Yea, it's a show about a white girl that has first-world problems, but then she grows beyond that.

I don't see Roux doing that at all. She's like an eternal whiner.

I think few people are going to claim that this series is a great or important work of fiction, but to claim that the writers race or gender disqualifies her for writing about a white man or that the themes she explores are unworthy of attention is just silly.
No one is saying any of that.
 

thetopher

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#19
Slavery is too significant a part of American history to ever be played out in fiction.
Anything can get played out if its just the same tired tropes all the time.

I think we can bear a single story on racism.
Sure we can, but its just that the story is rubbish. BtVS kinda deserves better. Also Giles' character needs to be serviced by a better story.

Because this story can racial themes in it doesn't make it automatically bad, but it doesn't make it automatically good or worthy either.

If you want to write about the poor Dixie farmer who enlisted to protect his way of life or the internal slavery of Africa, then go ahead, but African-American writers aren't done sorting out the trauma of their forefathers' displacement or the current state of inequality. We're all fans of a show about a white girl who's upset she doesn't get to be homecoming queen.
The problem with identity politics in a nutshell really; judging everything through the prism of race.
 
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#20
I think few people are going to claim that this series is a great or important work of fiction,
Seriously - I think it has the potential to be one of the cleverest arcs I've ever read in the whole canon. :)

Anything can get played out if its just the same tired tropes all the time.
. So, would they be the tired tropes borrowed from W.E.B Du Bois, Alice Walker, James Baldwin, Ralph Ellison, Richard Wright, Maya Angelou, Walter Mosley, Zora Neale Hurston, Octavia Butler, (Nobel/Pulitzer Prize winner) Toni Morrison and others I've probably missed? Which tropes did you in mind? Vernaculars? Conjuring? The Trickster? The Signifying Monkey? Talking and Testifying?

Slavery is too significant a part of American history to ever be played out in fiction.
I understand the point you're making but I think black women's literary tradition would have something to say about that. ;)

Identity politics? There's nothing new about identity politics. It's implicit from the moment humankind first uttered the word "I". No text can avoid being political - it's hegemony that makes it seem that way.

Yea, it's a show about a white girl that has first-world problems, but then she grows beyond that. I don't see Roux doing that at all. She's like an eternal whiner.
I don't know how to respond to that.