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Do you think Joss Whedon's virtue signalling

burrunjor

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Is why people are so desperate to take him down?

Having had time to process everything that's come out, I don't think Joss Whedon is a sexual abuser. Trachtenberg's comments are bad, but we don't have any proof that she is even accusing him of that. We know he had affairs but that is different. There is nothing about him like that from other actresses, even Charisma. She accuses him of being a bully, but not an abuser or a pervert.

Now I am not trying to excuse Joss Whedon's behaviour here. As I've said many times before we've known he was a total arsehole for years now. However sadly there are lots of Hollywood directors and producers who are similar.

Sam Raimi was known to be a bit of a tyrant on the set of Spider-Man. Danny Elfman I believe refused to ever work with him again, whilst there was also his famous tantrum about being forced to include Venom. Rob Tapert similarly is known to be quite difficult too. I'm not saying these guys are as bad as Joss, but you could see how it could be easy for people who worked with them to make out that they were completely awful and how sadly these type or work situations can get like that.

Irwin Allen is another example. Any fans of Lost in Space will know that he was an absolute tyrant. The relationship between him and Jonathan Harris is similar to James Marsters and Joss, in that in both cases we have an actor take a minor role and make it the most popular and the producer gets angry at regularly threatens him between takes with "YOU THINK THE SHOW IS ABOUT YOU, IT'S NOT! I CAN FIRE YOU ANY TIME I WANT!" A lot of the cast of Lost in Space felt that they were pit against each other too.

However the likes of Allen, Raimi and Tapert wisely didn't bum themselves up. They didn't post about how they were wise men above everyone else, accuse others like Jurassic World and Gamer Gate of being sexist, hang out with a divisive, hateful, people like Anita Sarkeesian and be so vitriolic against people on twitter like calling women dogs, ugly turds, wanting them to be gored etc.

I think all of these things made Joss someone that people want to really take down a peg or two. I can imagine Charisma seething when she sees people like Sigourney Weaver and Anita Sarkeesian beef him up as being a great guy for feminism. To me it's his hypocrisy that angered the cast more than anything else, and is also why so many people are quick to jump on this.
 

wolfpuppy

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I'm not at all defending Joss but I question the initial premise of this post. It begins by making the assumption that Joss was "virtue signaling", which is a fairly dubious thing to accuse anyone of to begin with.
If you started out saying he was a hypocrite, that would be different, but the two terms aren't interchangeable.
 

burrunjor

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I'm not at all defending Joss but I question the initial premise of this post. It begins by making the assumption that Joss was "virtue signaling", which is a fairly dubious thing to accuse anyone of to begin with.
If you started out saying he was a hypocrite, that would be different, but the two terms aren't interchangeable.
He was virtue signalling on twitter, IE making out he was such a feminist, complaining about others being sexist regularly, which is why I think the likes of Charisma really wanted to take him down a peg or two.
 

Spanky

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How he "attacked" Jurassic Park and made fun of whatever Chris was in it. Oh yeah, his virtue signalling on the Twitter is horrible.
 

burrunjor

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How he "attacked" Jurassic Park and made fun of whatever Chris was in it. Oh yeah, his virtue signalling on the Twitter is horrible.
He said he wanted some Republicans gored to death by Rhinos and called Nicole Kidman an empty headed turd and made fun of her looks and called Ivanka Trump a dog. Also yes when you call gamer gators, Jurassic World and the people who didn't want a female Doctor all misogynists when you've fired a woman for being pregnant does come over as hypocritical.

I don't get the upset here? I was just saying that maybe Joss left himself open for this by being so righteous. My point was lots of directors are difficult, but at least they just disappear from social media. If say Sam Raimi, or Rob Tapert kept boasting about what feminists they were, talking down to others and pointing out how bad other people's sexism was on social media, who knows maybe someone they pissed off years ago would get angry and bring up how they were bad to work for too and then a similar bandwagon might develop because people always love to take somebody righteous down?

(I'm not saying that they were as bad as Joss btw, just that a lot of directors, producers can be tyrannical. Irwin Allen I think was as bad as Joss meanwhile when you hear how he treated Jonathan Harrs, swearing and screaming at him.)
 
Spanky
Spanky
Thankfully I have forgotten most of the sheer crap he talks on the social media.

burrunjor

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Spanky Thankfully I have forgotten most of the sheer crap he talks on the social media.

Yes the first time many people saw his feet of clay.
 

Spanky

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My point was lots of directors are difficult, but at least they just disappear from social media.
I don't think the social medias as a whole was to blame, but his attitude in general. He comes off as a very pompous holier than thou person, even in interviews. But don't ask me, I think I was the first person here on the Anti-Whedon bandwagon years ago.
 
thetopher
thetopher
You were into it before it was the cool new thing.

burrunjor

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I don't think the social medias as a whole was to blame, but his attitude in general. He comes off as a very pompous holier than thou person, even in interviews.
Agreed but at least in a lot of interviews he had to have some kind of filter. In social media he can type any stupid thing he wants LOL.
 

DeadlyDuo

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The Left have the tendency to eat their own when it suits. Whedon's virtue signalling is par for the course since Hollywood is very left wing (even going so far as trying to cancel actors who don't toe the leftie line). Whedon has been accused by two people: 1. a woman 2. a black man. Since those two classify as part of the special groups SJWs will defend whilst Whedon, as a straight white male, is not part of a "protected" group, it's open season on him right now. Everyone is going to rush to "stand with" the alleged victims rather than wait for actual facts to emerge.

There is a lot of lessons to be learnt from the Amber Heard/Johnny Depp case, whether those lessons actually get learnt remains to be seen.
 

thrasherpix

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The pattern is much wider than this.

Maybe I'll expand on this later, but I'm expecting a ride and I'm sure many would rather I don't post another essay. So suffice to say there is a tribal part of our brain (which has been measured by devices) that looks to create purity in the name of the tribe (gotta make sure they're pure enough that they'll have your back in an emergency rather than save themselves) while also identifying enemies. This has, and always will, be the case (I'm just fearing the next Satanic Panic at this point, which Qanon is trying to become), but times of fear like a pandemic or natural disaster, will magnify this unfortunate part of our natures. (Related to this is the need for status in the tribe, which can often come through extremism and destroying the enemy, even if only metaphorically, that is also exacerbated in bad times.)

In the modern world the way it manifests is different (though it can go old school), but it's still there, and I see it as a big part of toxic identity politics on the Left and the Right, in witch hunts, and other such things. You can't talk to them anymore than you can those under a spell in the episode Gingerbread. Brain scans have showed that when shown evidence that contradicts their tribal thinking that the brain will actually make itself forget and reward itself for doing so, thus keeping unity with the tribe that always needs new enemies to keep the bond strong.

That is it isn't just about Joss, nor is it just about so-called SJWs (I think the term of contempt is applied to those who don't deserve it, but others deserve every ounce of contempt they get). It's a web that he's caught in, both as participant and (especially now) as a whipping boy. It comes from a deeply irrational part of our minds that once made tribalism, and thus survival, possible for our species thousands of years ago, but now remains to be seen if we can truly move beyond it, or if what allowed for our civilization (which could be like a Hell dimension, and often is more than not, at least worse than Pylea), or if we ultimately destroy ourselves in the name of saving our respective tribes (be it national, faction, religious, and a host of other things).

Hypocrisy does tend to add gasoline to the flames, however. But even then...well tribalism can defend the most obviously guilty and hypocritical, it just depends.

On a side note, I'll assert that a Star Trek utopia will never come about because we as a species wouldn't be able to appreciate it. I expect if we suddenly had it we'd appreciate it appropriately...for about 20 years or so. And then not, while being so soft that whatever passed for Klingons would destroy us easily (assuming they weren't too busy killing each other), but I expect demagogues of our own species would destroy it before it ever came to be (or destroy it if it did ever come to be) long before anyone else could. Social movements need a devil more than a god, and will invent one if they have to.


Damn, even the abbreviated version is going essay (and my ride is immanent), so I'll just end with high school (I'd say middle school) never ends (my contemplating this has made society actually make sense to me no matter how absurd it gets, and people get really absurd).



ETA: in no way is this intended to excuse Joss for his truly deplorable behavior!
 
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TriBel
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I'd go along with that...though I don't think you necessarily need a brain scan to identify tribalism. You can probably infer it from psycho-social history. The problem with a true utopia is everything grinds to a halt.

AlphaFoxtrot

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So, what you are asking is, constantly promoting anti-sexism means you are secretly a closeted sexist? I would say it’s indisputable now that his over-promotion of Feminism was intended to cover for his bad behavior. I mean, that was pretty much Kai Cole’s hypothesis. Like, why would an adult even care if a trailer for Jurassic Park was sexist? You hire Chris Pratt to play a lovable oaf, who is he supposed to act against? I would say his talk of existentialism was doing the same thing, but since existentialism is primarily about getting co-eds to sleep with you, I mean, that’s not hypocritical, the Ghost of Sartre would be proud of him.

IMHO however, the Hollywood Power Structure is the real issue. Joss is a top tier talent, knocking him down, means everyone gets a promotion. Plus he is between studios right now, so he doesn’t have access to the Studio’s protection. If he was working on Justice League 2, this would never have come to light. I’m sure somebody is annoyed that he can claim that people don’t respect women when he is the worst offender, but that person isn’t in a position to call out Joss. Hypocrites are pretty easy to control, after all. I think he's just vulnerable, and the Studios are no longer there to protect him.
 

Priceless

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Personally I think Whedon suffered from a bad case of Trump Derangement Syndrome. He hit out at anyone who didn't seem to 100% validate his own politics and the politics of the left.
 
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