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Does anybody hate Cordelia?

Iacobusleo

Townie
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Hey guys! I have a pressing issue on my mind about Cordy, so much so that I created an account on this forum just to get your opinions.

I'm introducing Buffy and Angel to my friends now, and one thing I noticed consistently is that every one of them hates Cordelia in Angel. Granted, they haven't finish watching the series yet, but they are up to the beginning of Season 3 and they still find her annoying and stupid with a massive ego. I shudder to think what they would say once we get to the controversial Cordelia/Connor relationship in Season 4. XD

This is interesting to me because from what I can tell Cordelia is a beloved character in the fandom. So is there anyone around here who hates/does not care for Cordelia and can enlighten me why? Or have you met anyone who does not like her?
 

Blaze

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Interesting, I never really heard of Cordelia as being a disliked character. From what I can tell from my experiences, she's usually a character that is pretty well liked. I, myself, like her quite a bit. So I can't offer much insight here. 
Do they also dislike her run on BtVS?
 

Iacobusleo

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Ah yes that is an important question!

Two of my friends actually liked her on Buffy, but felt that Angel dumbed her down, especially in Season One and in the Pylea arc. They said that she lost that little bit of maturity she gained in Buffy Season 3 and became relentlessly loud and annoying.

@Buffy Summers. Oh yes I agree Cordy really lost that bitchy edge to her in late Season 3, which is unfortunate. That's the thing though, my friends hate her precisely because of that and were more tolerant of her during her stint as Xander's girlfriend, when she mellowed down some and was helping the Scoobies in late Season 2. I'm curious to see what they think of the softer, arguably more boring Cordelia of late Angel Season 3, although they probably will not be too pleased with Cangel. XD
 

Lyri

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I liked her in everything. She's one of my favourite characters.

But I do think that they changed her too much for ATS. She grew up way too fast. Matured too quickly compared to the Scoobies at the same time. S3, she's supposed to be 20, but she looks and acts closer to 30. She's just a completely different character.

I like her, but I could understand why people would be confused by her or upset at the changes in her.
 

Spanky

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I think if Quinn were around you would have seen a much different Cordy. They had to 'mature her' out of necessity I think.
 

Taake

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I like Cordy on BTVS and considerably less on ATS. I don't really hate her (well around season 3 maybe... then it just felt like she had lost most of what made her a real character because from then onwards she was defined as a romantic interest for Angel and everything was made to fit that mold, whether it fitted Cordy's original self or not) but I can understand others who do hate her. Something about her journey on Ats always rang untrue to me, if it's the speed with which they 'age her up' or something else I'm not sure, it just didn't really suit me.
 

thetopher

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I always liked Cordelia on Buffy but I have to say that on Angel Cordelia peaked for me around S2 'Belonging' and then slowly went downhill after that.

In S3 the writers tried too hard to force the Cangel romance/attraction right from the first episode, to the detriment of her character. She did have some good episodes after that- 'Billy' and Waiting In The Wings' come to mind.
But then there was 'Birthday' which for me undid a lot of the percieved Cordy character-growth and then she got loads of weird demon powers afterwards...o_O

The less said about S4 the better (apart from 'Spin The Bottle', a wonderful callback to Cordy's Buffy days. :D)

Cordelia in 'You're Welcome' is more of a throwback to S2 (with extra fighting skills) who just is able to admit on her attraction to Angel. (which had actually been there since Buffy S1)
 

The Bronze

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I don't hate her but I preferred her in the supporting role on Buffy rather than front and centre on Angel. I think she slotted in well with the Scoobies and there was a nice dynamic there. Switching between friends and enemies and getting some really good lines and moments to shine. In Angel I think she comes over as quite annoying early on and then pretty boring by the end. That's not to say she's awful on Angel or anything, just that for me less is more in her case.
 

Fuffy Baith

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I prefer Cordy on Buffy. Her humor was well used and contrasted the Scoobies. I love Cordy/Xander! I think that she has a lot of great character depth/emotional scenes that get over looked. I don't mind her on Angel but I agree about the whole growing her up too fast thing. Something about her humor doesn't always work for me though since Angel is supposed to be a more serious show. Also I don't like Cangel. Yes, Cordelia was flirting with Angel in the early Buffy seasons but it's clear from what Angel says that he is not interested in her. I think that Cordy no longer thought of Angel like that after Angelus and dating Xander and crushing on Wesley. It just wasn't there, she had moved on. I guess we're supposed to think that just because they work together and Cordy is no longer a spoiled brat and Buffy is no longer in the picture, that means they can grow closer romantically. I just don't see it. If they were to get together Cordy would know that she'd always be 2nd to Buffy. If she and Angel have sex and he doesn't lose his soul, well that's a good thing, but it also means that he can never be truly happy with her. I don't think that Cordy would just settle for that. To me it was forced and I was like, please no. But I don't hate Cordelia, I think she's a great character in Btvs and in the first 2 seasons of Angel.
 
MarlieTheSlayer
MarlieTheSlayer
You perfectly summed up why I can't/don't/wont support Cangel.

thetopher

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If they were to get together Cordy would know that she'd always be 2nd to Buffy. If she and Angel have sex and he doesn't lose his soul, well that's a good thing, but it also means that he can never be truly happy with her.
Now I have this weird image of Cordelia and Angel arguing after sex and Angel saying: "Look, I was thinking of you the whole time. 'Cause hey, I'm not evil!" :D

But I agree that if you analyse it/break it down Cangel makes no sense from the Angel perspective.
But that's not to say that Angel couldn't have moved on from Buffy in S3- he could've. By then he'd come to realise that Buffy, being the slayer, would probably eventually die before the whole Shanshu thing, so why not move on?

But with Cordelia? Nah, I didn't really see it, despite Lorne's ham-fisted selling of it.
 
Taake
Taake
[No message]
Fuffy Baith
Fuffy Baith
Yea, Angel can totally move on, but not with Cordelia. It was just never there.

The Bronze

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Angel can move onto being single and being comfortable with it. Unfortunately that's it until he can change his curse at the very least. Every reason he left Buffy for will apply to any new partner he finds, even if it takes him a while to figure it out. Wesley telling him differently in Season 5 was just terrible advice.
 
MarlieTheSlayer
MarlieTheSlayer
lol I was like "4 real Wesley!?''

VisionBoy

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While most people I know really like Cordy (thus they get to live ;)) I do know quite a few who don't like her too.
Some of them are only fans of BTVS and I guess they just see her as the shallow b*tch character... which bugs me, because there was always more to her than that, even way back in season 1, the girl had layers.
Others are the other way around. They enjoyed her in BTVS, but then loathed pretty much everything they did with her in Angel: giving her visions, making her part demon, Cangel, Season 4.
To each their own I guess.

For the most part, I liked watching her change and grow, but I can totally understand why other's didn't like aspects of that. The three main criticisms I have with her character's story are:
1) Cangel was rather forced. I like the notion of them having feelings for each other, but it wasn't very well done with the exception of "You're Welcome"
2) Her powers. I don't necessarily mind her having those glowy demonic powers, but they seemed to just get abandoned just as they started to develop.
We never really learned that much about them.
3) Season 4. It's just sad that the last we see of the real Cordy (up until You're Welcome) are those very brief scenes of her on the higher plane.

On a slightly but not entirely unrelated note: Am I the only one who watched Angel "First Impressions" thinking they might have been toying with the idea of Cordelia and Gunn having a thing somewhere down the line? The episode has an "opposites attract" kind of vibe to it. I dunno, could be way off, just something I thought about :p
 
Buffy Summers
Buffy Summers
Totally agree about Cangel :)

janas

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On a slightly but not entirely unrelated note: Am I the only one who watched Angel "First Impressions" thinking they might have been toying with the idea of Cordelia and Gunn having a thing somewhere down the line? The episode has an "opposites attract" kind of vibe to it. I dunno, could be way off, just something I thought about :p
Yes, I too have thought it. Among other things "First impressions" is one of the few episodes where I love Cordelia. I was beginning to re-evaluate in a positive way her character, and then what? they transform Cordy in "Saint Cordelia" before and "Evil Cordelia" then. And my, never dormant, antipathy for her has re-emerged in all its power.

No, I don't like Cordelia. Neither in BTVS nor in ATS.
 

VisionBoy

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Yeah, I think "First Impressions" was a big episode for Cordy. We saw her have the whole "new, empathy driven me" revelation at the end of season 1, but I think "First Impressions" was the first time we really saw her put that new sense of self/purpose into action. Perhaps the only time really, to some extent. I mean, don't get me wrong, she was fighting alongside the team and played her part, sure, she did that throughout season one anyway; but I don't think we ever saw her as driven to help someone as she was in that episode, and on her own no less.
 

janas

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Best line ever.

CORDELIA: (to phone) Wesley? Where are you? Are you there? Wesley? Uhh! Where are you guys? God. I don't, I don't know what I should do. I had a vision. It's Gunn. He's in trouble. I-I think it's bad. God, where are you guys? I don't know what to... Okay, I'm going over there. When you get this message, get Angel and meet me at Gunn's, okay?
(Heads for the door, stops.)
I need a weapon. (Takes axe, shoves it in purse) Okay. I'm gonna die. I'm gonna die.


I swear that I loved Cordelia here. I've seen for genuine change of its priorities. She was willing to die to save Gunn. But then, in Pylea's arc, she becomes again Queen C :(
 

Aud

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I watched ATS and BTVS when they originally aired, collectively, from 1997 to 2004. I don't remember minding Cordelia as much back then. Recently, I started rewatching the two series, watching them in tandem to try to retain some semblance of continuity between the two. It wasn't until this rewatch that I've come to find Cordelia extremely annoying, almost unwatchable.

I liked Cordelia on BTVS. They had her in just the right doses, and her interactions with the Scooby Gang were perfection. They did a good job of maintaining that Queen C personality while also giving just enough glimpses of her to see she is not just a flat, one-dimensional character.

That being said, I found her insufferable on ATS. In no particular order, here are my reasons:

1. Her transformation and growth occurred at an unbelievable rate, and while some of these changes represented the organic growth of Cordelia as a person, many of them felt forced. This "growth" seemed to stamp out a lot of what had made her so much fun on BTVS. Basically, they took her character and made her into the "mother hen" of the AI brood. The big turning point for her was supposed to be when she had that overload of visions and realized just how much pain and suffering there is out there. On a theoretical level, I am willing to accept that as an explanation for the change in her motivations. I can't accept it as an explanation for the change in her personality.
2. The ridiculously contrived, unnatural ick-worthiness that was "Cangel." Starting somewhere in the latter half of Season 2, it became clear that the writers were trying to sell audiences the notion that these two had become BFFs, and could perhaps be something more. In order to sell this otherwise implausible romance, they had to significantly tweak Cordelia's personality so that audiences would be convinced that she was a woman Angel could really fall in love with. Maybe the network was pushing for some romance to try to boost ratings. Maybe it was a creative decision to try to really distance the show from its predecessor (by Season 3, ATS and BTVS were airing on separate networks and were actively discouraged from doing crossover episodes). Who knows what demonic force compelled the writers to do this. Whatever the reasoning of the Powers That Be, it all felt contrived. It didn't help that it always seemed that David Boreanaz really struggled to sell this love, and at times I almost felt like it pained him to try to believably convey that his character had fallen in love with Cordelia. Most of the scenes hinting at his love were either: shoved down our throats through the other characters' speculations about the pair, or played for comedic effect through scenes like the untimely arrival of the Groosalugg (we already know from BTVS that Angel is prone to jealousy, but petty jealousy is not enough to amount to genuine romantic love).
3. She was shrill, and Charisma Carpenter did a lot of "eyebrow acting." I'm sorry, but raising your finely tweezed eyebrows while delivering your lines is not emoting.

Although this is mere conjecture on my part, I've always wondered about Charisma Carpenter's involvement in the creative process. I remember reading somewhere that throughout her tenure on BTVS, she continually begged the writers to let Cordelia kill a vampire, a wish they finally granted in her final episode, "Graduation, Pt. 2." It sort of makes me wonder if she also tried to really force the direction and development of her character on ATS, leading to her gaining new and different powers in what felt like every other episode. Again, I cannot emphasize enough that this is mere conjecture; I just wonder if she (the actress) went too far in trying to control what happened with her character.
 
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Fuffy Baith

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It sort of makes me wonder if she also tried to really force the direction and development of her character on ATS, leading to her gaining new and different powers in what felt like every other episode. Again, I cannot emphasize enough that this is mere conjecture; I just wonder if she (the actress) went too far in trying to control what happened with her character.
I'm going to say no. She hated what they did wither her in S4 and I've heard James Marsters say that Joss was very strict with his stories and scripts. Some of the actors would ask him about doing stuff with their characters and Joss was not interested or would go in the opposite direction of what they wanted. Basically if Joss has a vision of what he wants, no one except the networks and producers are going to change it. He was very upset with Charsima Carpenter for getting pregnant in S4 because that meant he had to re plan out everything and he already had the whole season planned I think. So I'm going to say she and any other actors, maybe with the exception of the leads, had no say in their characters. I do agree about Cordelia changing too much on Angel where it wasn't as fun, but that's the story they wanted to tell I guess.
 
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