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Does S5 become too much The Angel and Spike show?

Mr Trick

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I get it. I like Spike and enjoyed him becoming a full cast member for this season. He does have important history with Angel. But I think there's too much of him and Angel dominating episodes to point where you sometimes forget there's other establish characters who had been apart of Angel the show much longer than Spike. In Why We Fight (which I think is a boring episode anyway) it feels like Wes, Gunn and Fred could have just taken a episode off their just used as stakes at the end. Spike being around also leads to more flashbacks, like Angel the show needed more of those right? There's a lot of good stuff with Spike this season, but some it feels like filler which doesn't add a great deal.

The Girl in Question is good example also. The more important drama of Wes/Fred/Illyria is chopped in half because of Spike and Angel pretting about in Italy, and the writers playing with the audience with a game of will SMG make a guest appearance?!

That whole Cup/Holy grail plot dragged on a bit too.
 

Myheadsgonenumb

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I can think of a lot of episodes where Spike is either hardly in it, or he's working well with the rest of the team. The first episode, Disharmony and Smile Time he just turns up for a scene to show his face. He's not in ep 3 very much because he fades out for most of the action, but when he is in it he's interacting with Fred not Angel. S4 is Spike heavy but again his main interactions are with Fred and Fred works with the rest of the team to corporealise him. After that he's just wise cracking ghost sidekick for life of the party, the cautionary tale of numero cinqo and Lineage - but he gets scenes with lot of different characters, it isn't just him and Angel.

Destiny is obviously Spike and Angel heavy, but then the next episode is Disharmony with barely a moment of Spike.

In soul purpose - that is all about Angel's fear of being replaced by Spike so he does feature in the dream sequences, but alongside everyone else. The real Spike is interacting with Lindsey this episode and Wes and Gunn pay him a visit to try and get him to join Wolfram and Hart.
Damage - Spike pairs up with both Angel and Andrew before going alone, but the rest of the team also do their part and rescue him.

You're Welcome is mostly about Cordy.

A whole in the world and shells are about Fred. Yes he's paired up with Angel, but it wouldn't be fair to say they are the main focus of the episodes. Underneath has a balance between Wes and Illyria; Lorne, Eve and Harmony - and then Spike, Angel and Gunn rescuing Lindsey. If anything, this is a Gunn episode. Origin is about Connor - Spike is with Illyria not Angel. Time bomb - again, Spike is with Illyria or Wesley, Angel is by himself getting blown through time - but when he gets to team sequences, the whole team is there.

I don't think it's fair to say the Illyria stuff is chopped in half in the Girl in Question. In a lot of episodes there are A storylines and B storylines. Illyria is the B storyline.

Power play he works with the team to try and uncover what Angel is up to, while Angel is out on his own and in Not Fade Away everyone spends a surprising amount of screen time by themselves, but when he is in a scene with the others - all the others are there.

So ... I guess not really. The three episodes you mentioned are the only ones that are Spike and Angel together and everyone else pushed off to the side. There are three episodes with barely any Spike to counter that and the rest of the time Spike is just part of the team (or out on his own with Lindsey). But everyone gets huge, pivotal moments throughout the season - even Harmony gets an episode focused on her.

I do wonder what the cast really thought about James Martsters turning up and being immediately given second billing ahead of them, though.
 
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
Actually, it was Harm's Way...not Disharmony. ;-)

Spanky

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S5 needed more Spike and Angel show not less.
 

Btvs fan

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I get it. I like Spike and enjoyed him becoming a full cast member for this season. He does have important history with Angel. But I think there's too much of him and Angel dominating episodes to point where you sometimes forget there's other establish characters who had been apart of Angel the show much longer than Spike. In Why We Fight (which I think is a boring episode anyway) it feels like Wes, Gunn and Fred could have just taken a episode off their just used as stakes at the end. Spike being around also leads to more flashbacks, like Angel the show needed more of those right? There's a lot of good stuff with Spike this season, but some it feels like filler which doesn't add a great deal.

The Girl in Question is good example also. The more important drama of Wes/Fred/Illyria is chopped in half because of Spike and Angel pretting about in Italy, and the writers playing with the audience with a game of will SMG make a guest appearance?!

That whole Cup/Holy grail plot dragged on a bit too.
Disagree Spike isn't in s5 that much and some of that is purposely to make him stupid in comparison to Angel. Which Fury even admitted they did in an interview so its not conjecture.
 

Faded90

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I think the problem is they clearly struggled to find a way to justify why Spike would even stay and they just couldn’t seem to really find his niche within the show so he became the one who torments Angel. I’ve always wondered how they would justify Spike still being there in S6 if there had been one
 

white avenger

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I don't know how much weight that you can put on the rumor, but I heard once that "Angel" was cancelled mainly because of Joss' early assurances that the show would be renewed for Season 6, and demands for a higher production budget. Course, I heard basically the same thing about a Season 2 of "Firefly," and a Season 3 of "Dollhouse," so he's either a difficult man to work with (like what has been said more recently about him on "Avengers," or he's the victim of a lot of bad rumors.
 

Btvs fan

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I think the problem is they clearly struggled to find a way to justify why Spike would even stay and they just couldn’t seem to really find his niche within the show so he became the one who torments Angel. I’ve always wondered how they would justify Spike still being there in S6 if there had been one
I believe James Marsters was going to give his notice as he'd fallen out with Producer Kelly Manners only for the Cancellation news to come in so it rendered it moot.
 
Faded90
Faded90
Yeah I’d read that

Btvs fan

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I don't know how much weight that you can put on the rumor, but I heard once that "Angel" was cancelled mainly because of Joss' early assurances that the show would be renewed for Season 6, and demands for a higher production budget. Course, I heard basically the same thing about a Season 2 of "Firefly," and a Season 3 of "Dollhouse," so he's either a difficult man to work with (like what has been said more recently about him on "Avengers," or he's the victim of a lot of bad rumors.
This is from a Fury interview in 04
 

Mr Trick

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I think don't know I still think others get over shadowed because of a lot of the plots being about Angel and Spike. I guess part of my feeling is that Spike is like a guest star on Angel. He's not someone we've seen as constant fixture. At least on Buffy, you can say he went from being a great villain to a core member of the cast. In a way he always felt more like a Buffy character than a Angel character.
 

Btvs fan

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I think don't know I still think others get over shadowed because of a lot of the plots being about Angel and Spike. I guess part of my feeling is that Spike is like a guest star on Angel. He's not someone we've seen as constant fixture. At least on Buffy, you can say he went from being a great villain to a core member of the cast. In a way he always felt more like a Buffy character than a Angel character.
That's pretty much the reason he was brought over. A popular Buffy character etc. It pretty much saved them from cancellation.

Well he was in In the Dark albiet as a bit of a joke who Angel beats quite easily in there fight and whose then outsmarted first by Doyle and Cordy and then Marcus.

You say Guest character. Originally he was pitched as just reoccurring by Joss but JM said no, it was Regular or nothing. Now you can't blame JM for that. You go from full time to part time in any job its a demotion in any form of employment. JM would've been better getting other jobs if they'd have done that.
It's significant that he pops up at the end of the Season Premier but is not recorporeal until E8 Destiny.
 

Mr Trick

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As I understand it was either Masters or Dusku who were considered? I might have that wrong. I can see the logic in it being Masters and not Dusku (think her arc was done at that point and it was fitting she ended up back on Buffy to complete her arc). I just wish they dialed some of the Spike-Angel stuff down a bit.
 
B
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No Eliza wasn't considered for Angel but her own spin off which she turned down

Faded90

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As I understand it was either Masters or Dusku who were considered? I might have that wrong. I can see the logic in it being Masters and not Dusku (think her arc was done at that point and it was fitting she ended up back on Buffy to complete her arc). I just wish they dialed some of the Spike-Angel stuff down a bit.
Faith was to have her own show not to be on Angel. Apparently it was either Spike or Willow for Angel (the network were leaning towards Willow to have more females apparently but I don’t think Alyson was interested)

Spike also may have went over to Faith’s show instead of Angel is Eliza hadn’t rejected it. I absolutely adore Faith but everything I’ve read about how they’d planned her show sounds awful-Kung fu on a motorbike basically with Faith travelling on a motorbike and Spike to be her sidekick. The whole ‘bad girl on a motorbike’ sounds like such a cliche and Faith deserves better than that,
Plus a Faith/Spike partnership would inevitably have played on ‘look at how crazy they are!’, Faith works great with Buffy and Angel as they are ‘softer’ characters that balance her out a lot. as much as I would have loved a Faith spin off done right I think Eliza made the right decision to turn it down (she said she knew it would always be compared to Buffy and would be huge boots to fill so went with Tru Calling instead) . I also agree about finishing her story on Buffy rather than Angel, her character works great on Angel for short stints but I just can’t imagine her as a regular character on the show, I feel like her story becomes about Angel and servicing his story when she’s on Angel whereas she has her own character more on Buffy. I’m biased though because she’ll always be a Buffy character first and foremost for me 😊

I also thought the Spangel scenes got very tiresome in S5. Plus James was clearly struggling with his accent and production really should have stepped in to help him and although he’s a fantastic actor scenes like the fan favourite ‘cavemen and astronauts’ make my teeth itch because all I notice is the accent. Sorry Spike fans, I come in peace!
 

Btvs fan

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Faith was to have her own show not to be on Angel. Apparently it was either Spike or Willow for Angel (the network were leaning towards Willow to have more females apparently but I don’t think Alyson was interested)

Spike also may have went over to Faith’s show instead of Angel is Eliza hadn’t rejected it. I absolutely adore Faith but everything I’ve read about how they’d planned her show sounds awful-Kung fu on a motorbike basically with Faith travelling on a motorbike and Spike to be her sidekick. The whole ‘bad girl on a motorbike’ sounds like such a cliche and Faith deserves better than that,
Plus a Faith/Spike partnership would inevitably have played on ‘look at how crazy they are!’, Faith works great with Buffy and Angel as they are ‘softer’ characters that balance her out a lot. as much as I would have loved a Faith spin off done right I think Eliza made the right decision to turn it down (she said she knew it would always be compared to Buffy and would be huge boots to fill so went with Tru Calling instead) . I also agree about finishing her story on Buffy rather than Angel, her character works great on Angel for short stints but I just can’t imagine her as a regular character on the show, I feel like her story becomes about Angel and servicing his story when she’s on Angel whereas she has her own character more on Buffy. I’m biased though because she’ll always be a Buffy character first and foremost for me 😊

I also thought the Spangel scenes got very tiresome in S5. Plus James was clearly struggling with his accent and production really should have stepped in to help him and although he’s a fantastic actor scenes like the fan favourite ‘cavemen and astronauts’ make my teeth itch because all I notice is the accent. Sorry Spike fans, I come in peace!
Yeah it sounded very similar to a show called Dark Angel with Jessica Alba that got cancelled. It was supposedly meant to have Ghost Spike and Principal Wood as side characters. Im not surprised she said no. Though seeing as Tru got cancelled anyway I wish we'd have had the Faith show.

Tbh the comic version of her and Giles teamed up in Europe or her living in London was actually a better idea and the best thing about the comics. That would've worked.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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"Untitled Faith Project" could work, because it sounds a lot like the A-Team. And voyaging from town to town dealing with the supernatural... might have some gas in it. It's something Buffy never tried at least, as opposed to hanging out in one place.
 

Btvs fan

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"Untitled Faith Project" could work, because it sounds a lot like the A-Team. And voyaging from town to town dealing with the supernatural... might have some gas in it. It's something Buffy never tried at least, as opposed to hanging out in one place.
Sounds good but the problem is the whole TV budget amd filming constraints mean those places/set are never gonna change from the LA/California area and would be noticable pretty quick.
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

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Nah. I love Angel and Spike and their dynamic. We needed some lightheartedness after the darkness that was S4.
I absolutely agree. They were amazing together. Always gave me a giggle, seeing them annoy each other. Because frankly, Wes, Lorne, Gunn, and Fred had become a bit boring.
 

Btvs fan

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I absolutely agree. They were amazing together. Always gave me a giggle, seeing them annoy each other. Because frankly, Wes, Lorne, Gunn, and Fred had become a bit boring.
I definitely agree about Fred. Was never a fan of the character and I so prefer Illyria who I wish had come sooner.
I'm kind of glad that the whole Fred still in there plot from the comics didn't happen either.

I think with Gunn it was less boring because he was on the screen and more that the writers didn't know what to do with the character and so despite being made a regular he was just there not doing anything of real interest.
For S2 he was pretty much Wesley's side kick, in S3 he was with Fred which was written as sickly and chemistryless as possible. In S4 he was part of the Wes/Fred triangle and even got dropped from that in favour of Lilah/Wes/Fred.
Only in S5 is he actually an interesting part of the story where he is a counter point to thr rest of the group in he's accepting joining W&H
 
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