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Does the story in I Will Remember You undercut To Shanshu in LA?

slayer730

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I'm sure the writers in early season 1 had no idea what they would be doing by the end of it, but as we all know both deal with the idea of Angel turning human. In IWRY he is accidentally turned by a demon only to have the effects reversed realizing he could do more good in the long run as a vampire. Then TSinLA introduces the prophecy that says he'll become human again and the plot sort of used that as a motivation. Do you guys feel this made sense given the events of IWRY?
 

CHK DeWilSon

A BAngel fan. Always.
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Yes it does make sense for me.

Angel got his one wish to be human and get to be with Buffy. Of course that all fell apart where he felt it necessary to give it up to save/prolong Buffy's life.

Meeting Buffy gave Angel inspiration and purpose to do good within his life by helping others.
The prophecy gave him a belief that there could be an end goal whether you believe he deserves it or not.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

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The Shanshu is eschatological. After the final apocalypse, the world will presumably be different, and there will be no need for champions with super powers. It will no longer be "harsh" and "cruel." We will all pick flowers, frolic in the woods and watch re-runs of 7th Heaven.

There are many things about IWRY that makes me scratch my head, but this particular thing holds up to me.
 

NeddaSai

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Doesn't the Shanshu specifically say it will happen after an apocalypse as a reward? If so the IWRY incident doesn't negate it, that was just an accidental demon blood side effect with no apocalypse in sight.
 

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
There has been a suggestion that slayers should be breeding Mohra demons and using their blood to transform vampires back into humans. This might kill the drama of the Buffyverse but it could be a better way if this was a real life story. The slayer would use a paintball gun with Mohra blood paint and fire at vampires from a safe distance.

As for a final apocalypse, we get the impression from Beljoxa's eye that there is meant to be a balance between good and evil and skewing the balance too far in either direction causes a restoring force to be applied. We get something of the Zoroastrian idea of the continuous fight between good and evil that never ends.
 

thetopher

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Fundamentally Angel wants to earn his fate, his second chance. Maybe its to do with his guilt or wanting to prove something, wanting to be worthy. I mean, he didn't ask to become a vampire, he didn't ask to cursed with a soul, he didn't feel like he was good enough for Buffy's life and, in IWRY, he didn't ask for his human-ness to be returned to him.

In Shanshu...Angel is told that if he fights long enough, and if he's worthy enough to survive the coming trials, that he will earn what he wants. So he smiles because that sounds nice.
 

white avenger

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My take on the seeming inconsistency between Angel's attitudes in "I Will Remember You," and the Shanshu Prophecy is simply that he wasn't capable of fighting as a human, and he either didn't have the time or inclination, or both, to learn. There are several quite capable human demon fighters in the Buffyverse, the best probably being Charles Gunn, but his skills were developed over years. Angel felt that he didn't have the time to spend acquiring those skills to that degree, mostly, certainly, because the Oracles hinted that Buffy would die protecting him (she died anyway, protecting Dawn, so much for avoiding prophecies) but I also firmly believe that Angel just couldn't accept not being the biggest dog in the pack. We've seen his ego, as Liam, as Angelus, and as Angel, and he always wants to be the leader. No real fault in that, just his character makeup.

As for the Shansu Prophecy, that would be his version of what another nameless vampire did by fighting and earning his soul. Angel wanted to earn his humanity as a reward, not get it by accident or as a curse. Again, just part of his ego makeup.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Well, it appears the working projected endgame for the Buffyverse was some sort of decisive battle between good and evil, after which Buffy and Angel could retire. It certainly seems like what Fray was describing, and is certainly what is being hinted at in Season 1. If Angel ran a full seven seasons, S7 Ep 24 "The Last Enemy to Die, is Undeath." would see Angel and Buffy walking off into the sunrise together. But that was before Spiffy, and before Cordie, and before Joss became full of himself. Now, I don't know if that was the end game, but it seemed like it. So, for Angel to quit the game prior to it's end, that's what he didn't like.
 
B
Btvs fan
God i hope that wasn't the case

DeadlyDuo

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Perhaps the Mohra blood and the Gem of Amara were tests for Angel sent by the powers that be (though I dislike the notion that essentially there's some "grand plan" for characters rather than absolute free will). Both things would enable him to walk in the sun and be with Buffy, both tempting him to take the easier path.
 
B
Btvs fan
The Gem was only given to him because Buffy decided to send it to him. While one of the extras in paint was annoyed with the other for pressing the reset button. So unless they are controlling everyones actions its doubtful.

Btvs fan

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Angel managed to be both an idiot and a creepy control freak in this episode.
After Pangs and taking a decision which Buffy was justifiably angry about. He does it to her again in this episode by taking her memories away without talking it through with her. That was after him choosing not to wake her up to fight the super powered Demon and fight it human by himself.

Speaking as a Spuffy fan, if Spike ever found out about this, he should thank Angel for doing this, he might have not had a chance otherwise :D
 

DeadlyDuo

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@Btvs fan It's never stated how Spike knew about the gem to begin with. All that we know is that vampires looked for it during the 10th century, couldn't find it, and it was believed that it never existed.

The powers that be might have made sure Spike learnt about the situation and let him do the rest. He had to dig in Sunnydale where Buffy was. Buffy would obviously send the ring to Angel if she got her hands on it. I'm not saying that the powers that be are puppeting everyone (that would be a crap way to go otherwise) but that they set the wheels n motion in regards to getting the gem to Angel.
 
B
Btvs fan
Well i really hope you're wrong because you're right that would be a crap way to go

CHK DeWilSon

A BAngel fan. Always.
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Angel managed to be both an idiot and a creepy control freak in this episode.
After Pangs and taking a decision which Buffy was justifiably angry about. He does it to her again in this episode by taking her memories away without talking it through with her. That was after him choosing not to wake her up to fight the super powered Demon and fight it human by himself.

Speaking as a Spuffy fan, if Spike ever found out about this, he should thank Angel for doing this, he might have not had a chance otherwise :D
I know that people have different opinions but I do find it exasperating when things that are said don't ring true to what was been played on screen.

Like for instant that Angel decided to take Buffy's memory away of the day. It comes across like Angel was the one to request that The Oracles MUST do this for him to go back to being a vampire rather than it being the ONLY option they were giving him to be able to change back.

And let's talk about making decisions regarding Buffy without talking to her then. So Spike decides that even though Buffy has told him it's over that it won't be over if he get a himself a pesky little soul because that will change her mind about being with him. Now granted that it is soulless Spike but as this is one thing that he has done that is considered a noble act then I will bring it up.

And Spike did get his chance in the end to be in a relationship with Buffy and going by the recent completed comics we know how all that panned out....
 
B
Btvs fan
That is what happened on screen though. He did request for it to becdone. He decided to do that without thinking about Buffy or looking at other options.

CHK DeWilSon

A BAngel fan. Always.
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@Btvs fan I'm not disagreeing with you about Angel not talking to Buffy about what he decided for himself although as it's his body, he's the only one that gets to choose what he does with it.

The point is that you seem to be suggesting that Angel told The Oracles to change back time when I don't believe he knew that they could or would do that. Angel's purpose as far as I can tell was that they change him back to a vampire not realising or even thinking of the consequences and that he had to agree there and then or The Oracles would not do it.

And sure he could have possible gone to others for help but as The Oracles were the ones Angel had gone to in the first place about the fact he had become human then it's not surprising that he would again go to them for answers and then get see if they could change him to a vampire once more.
 
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