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Doppelgangland

jls

a big cat
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#1
Hey there,

Watching this episode and can't find a thread for it, so setting one up.

Something occurred that reminded me of an issue I have. Regular Willow (RW) comments on Vampire Willow (VW) saying VW seems 'a bit gay', or something similar.

This reminds me of how once Willow is with Tara, everyone, including Willow herself, categorises herself as gay. But, isn't she bi? Her romantic feelings for Xander were real, her romantic feelings for Oz were real.

Don't get me wrong, I love gay Willow, I think she really comes into her own when she comes out. She's more assertive, more grounded, more relaxed in herself, even more charismatic. But, as someone who is bi, it kind of left me a bit bereft to see a character I thought was bi wasn't classified as such, simply because they liked people of the same gender. Bi's exist too!
 
Joined
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#2
I agree, and I guess I let it go because of the time the show aired. What they were able to do with Willow and Tara was groundbreaking and I love that they even did that. And Willow does say in season 7, when Kennedy asks her basically when she knew she was attracted to women, something like "woman. I was attracted to one woman." This could be interpreted to imply that she might also still be attracted to men, but maybe I'm just projecting what I want her to mean onto what she's actually saying.

Commenting on this episode itself -- AH did an amazing job with the acting. She had to play Willow, Vamp Willow, Willow-playing-Vamp-Willow, and Vamp-Willow-playing-Willow. It's such a great performance!

And I adore the scene where the gang is on the stairs...

GILES: She was the best of all of us.
XANDER: Way better than me.
GILES: Way, way better.

And then:

Willow walks in.
WILLOW: Geez, who died?
...
WILLOW: Oh God, who died??

And the group hug. :)
 

jls

a big cat
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Oct 9, 2017
Messages
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Location
Australia
#3
Yeah, that's a good point @margybee - perhaps in their effort to create a groundbreaking TV relationship they felt they needed to forego nuance/fluidity, I can understand that. It still made me like I had something taken away from me :rolleyes: oh well, I'll get over it!

There are some great moments in Doppelgangland! Like when Buffy calls Willow old reliable and Willow gets upset, and then Xander jumps in saying all the wrong things - the geyser! old faithful! - Willow just gets angrier and Buffy is like 'Xander, I beg you not to help me', then he just stands there looking shell-shocked. It's such an enjoyable bit of acting on Nicholas Brendon's part.

Also when Giles hugs Willow, it's super cute, but Willow looks all horrified by it which makes me sad for Giles :(
 
HowiMetdaSlayer
HowiMetdaSlayer
I think she's just surprised that (uptight) Giles hugged her
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#4
I love the Old Reliable scene! Willow just looks more and more put out... and, you know what, she's gonna eat that banana, lunchtime be damned!
 

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
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Sineya
#5
I think we can blame this on the 90s-early 2000s. I don't think people really understood the whole LGBTQ+ comminuty at that time and it was easier to say she was gay then Bi. It was easier for people to understand and it showed that Tara wasn't a phase and that Willow could fall in love with women. But I do agree with you that to me Willow is more Bi and really she can love whoever she wants boy or girl!
 
HowiMetdaSlayer
HowiMetdaSlayer
yes this!

WillowFromBuffy

Extra flamy candles!
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#6
One point that I have made before and that I am happy to make again is that Willow already suspects she is gay.

Willow is annoyed by how much of a pushover she is. Then she meets a version of herself who is completely unrestricted by societal norms. Without any evidence (licking necks does not count for vampires) Willow immediately assumes her vampire self is gay and starts talking about snuggling. Shouldn't she be more concerned about dying? I think Willow knows that a "bad" Willow would be gay.

At the end of the episode, Willow refuses to kill her vampire self. She even hugs her, symbolically embracing her dark/repressed/uninhibited side. On the one hand, the vampire Willow is clearly evil. On the other hand, the vampire Willow is a bad ass that does not let people tell her what to do and is not afraid of being herself. Willow learns that you do not have to please everybody all the time and follow every stupid bigoted rule to be a good person.
This reminds me of how once Willow is with Tara, everyone, including Willow herself, categorises herself as gay. But, isn't she bi? Her romantic feelings for Xander were real, her romantic feelings for Oz were real.

Don't get me wrong, I love gay Willow, I think she really comes into her own when she comes out. She's more assertive, more grounded, more relaxed in herself, even more charismatic. But, as someone who is bi, it kind of left me a bit bereft to see a character I thought was bi wasn't classified as such, simply because they liked people of the same gender. Bi's exist too!
This is a can of worms you might wanna think twice about opening :p The last discussion had some of the longest post I've ever seen.
Also when Giles hugs Willow, it's super cute, but Willow looks all horrified by it which makes me sad for Giles :(
It is a pretty aggressive hug as hugs go. Also, Willow clearly loves Giles, but she is not used to that many signs of affection from him.
 
HowiMetdaSlayer
HowiMetdaSlayer
people arguing about Willow's sexuality! say it ain't so! :p

WillowFromBuffy

Extra flamy candles!
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#8
But how do you describe her feelings for Oz and Xander if she's gay?
I am not that keen to get into this again. Personally, I prefer to think of Will as bi, both before and after Tara. Other people like to see it as an example of compulsory heterosexuality. Many people internalise heteronormative ideas to such a degree that they perceive themselves as heterosexual, only to later discover that they are more comfortable being gay.

We had a fairly interesting discussion. In hindsight, I regret being so argumentative. I like to see Willow my way, but if other see her differently, then that is perfectly fine.
 
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#11
Most gay people try to be with members of the opposite sex in an effort to "be straight"- especially in high school (like Willow with Oz and Xander). And once they have the freedom of college, they're sexuality blossoms (like Willow with Tara in S4)- total cliche but it definitely has truth to it.

Also wanted to point out that in Season 1, Xander tells Willow it's great how he can talk to her about liking Buffy because she's like a guy to him..and Willow's like "great.. I'm a guy".. Not that it's a hugely defining moment or that the writers knew they were going to make her gay at that point but I think it's the earliest "evidence" of Willow's predilections.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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#12
Also wanted to point out that in Season 1, Xander tells Willow it's great how he can talk to her about liking Buffy because she's like a guy to him..and Willow's like "great.. I'm a guy".. Not that it's a hugely defining moment or that the writers knew they were going to make her gay at that point but I think it's the earliest "evidence" of Willow's predilections.
In the same episode, he says that if Willow is looking to date Buffy, she is keeping it pretty close to the chest.

I don't know if the comment about her being a like a guy makes all that much sense, though. I think it has more to do with their relaxed relationship - or what he perceives to be a relaxed relationship. Willow is hardly gender fluid.
 
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