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Eternity: Happy Pill = Angelus?!

Airam

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Sineya
I just rewatched this episode and I have to say I find the storyline this episode ridiculous! A Gypsy curse of true happiness... in over 100 years only Buffy could spark that level of emotion in Angel to have Angelus reeemerge... and in this episode a little pill can seriously bring out Angelus?! He's not even human! Should medication like this really work on vampires? I dunno... it seems so silly to me and unecessary.. like this episode really should not have ever existed... thoughts?
 

thetopher

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The episode only really makes sense if you consider that its just Angel acting like Angelus, the demon is still locked away by the curse, but Angel thinks and acts like its free.
We saw in 'Enemies' that Angel can do a believable Angelus impersonation, and I think thats what happening here- its a more dangerous equivelant of Angel being a 'nasty drunk'.

Wesley says this when he remarks tha tthe drug is simulating bliss, that its just chemical suggestion, no mysticism involved, therefore its not real and only temporary.

Otherwise why would Wesley try and reason with Angel at all? Wesley explains to Angel himself that none of it is real and that the curse is still in place.

It also explains why Wes and Cordy are pissed at Angel afterwards, he was tanting them with his nastiest, cruelest thoughts, not Angelus'. Saying that Cordy was a crap actress and that Wes was the same loser that we saw on Buffy- that was all Angel.

For the record I really like Eternity, its one of my favourites of S1. Its nice to see a return of the 'Angelus' personna, Cordelia's awesome bluff against Angelus and Wesley actually acting a lot more braver than we've seen him before. :)
 
Blaze
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janas

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In fact, I liked this episode. The theme explored (I think) was "Who we are or who we believe to be" We recite only roles predetermined or are we really ourselves? Stage (in which we recite roles established from a script written by others) versus real life (where we are the real protagonists). The characters's growth, especially Angel and Cordelia, at that point of the story is still work in progress and this episode explores this aspect.
 

Taake

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I dunno... it seems so silly to me and unecessary.. like this episode really should not have ever existed... thoughts?
You're right, in my opinion this really should not exist in the verse, because to me it makes no sense that a little "happy" pill can mess with a gypsy curse meant to lock up a blood thirsty demon... it only makes sense like [MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION] says
if you consider that its just Angel acting like Angelus, the demon is still locked away by the curse, but Angel thinks and acts like its free.
That it's just Angel believing that it's Angelus whose free. But really that's kind of flimsy.

Whether or not the pill should even work is kind of the same as the matter of whether or not vampires can even get drunk (Spike can but it doesn't make any sense to me).
 

Ethan Reigns

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The only other episode where a vampire was medicated was "Helpless 3ABB12" where the Cruciamentum was being conducted and Kralik, the vampire who was a serial killer when he was alive, had to take pills to alleviate a pain of some sort. In the story, Buffy substitutes Holy Water for tap water and Kralik dies of it.

We also saw Faith shoot Angel with some poison near the end of Season 3, so it is apparent that there are effects from drugs that a vampire can use to his advantage or can be used against him.

We know vampires can suffer injury and infirmity from Spike and Drusilla in Season 2.

But none of these medications are equivalent to a moment of pure happiness as required by the Gypsy spell. I have no doubt that Angel could be made to believe that a pill had reverted him to Angelus, but something beyond the current canon would have to happen for it to be pure happiness.
 

ILLYRIAN

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That Gypsy's curse was really stupid, imagine it. You give a vampire a soul with a true happiness clause. So Angel goes and gets himself a moment of true happiness and becomes the vampire without a soul again. That point is where the gypsy's proved how thick they were. Because it put their future descendents in a real danger, as it happened one of their descendants (Jenny) was killed by Angelus, so like I say, bloody stupid gypsy's. Logically they should have killed Angelus there and then.

There seemed to be a warning in that episode, and the warning was/is that some drugs might do that to you. IE don't take drugs.
 

bespangeled

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That Gypsy's curse was really stupid, imagine it. You give a vampire a soul with a true happiness clause. So Angel goes and gets himself a moment of true happiness and becomes the vampire without a soul again. That point is where the gypsy's proved how thick they were. Because it put their future descendents in a real danger, as it happened one of their descendants (Jenny) was killed by Angelus, so like I say, bloody stupid gypsy's. Logically they should have killed Angelus there and then.

There seemed to be a warning in that episode, and the warning was/is that some drugs might do that to you. IE don't take drugs.
Don't take drugs - your comment and that picture of Willow make me remember a godawful drug addiction metaphor....:D

I think Angelus peeked out. I see Angel as having to be constantly vigilant to make sure Angelus doesn't get some control. Once Buffy and Angel slept together, a rather rigid century old division of personality was cracked. Yes, it was mended, but I think that Angelus became more active and more of an issue for Angel.

I'd go with Wesley's read - while the soul was blissed out, the demon could do a small tap dance. For me, it was a precursor to dark!Angel where I see the soul and the demon damn near in agreement. They want me dark - well then let's see how they handle dark. Let me make it clear - I don't think that Angel ever lost his moral compass, or lost his soul, but I do see his soul and his demon as always there. Most of the time the soul can keep the demon unable to function.

Also - just for the record, I don't think it was sex that made Angel lose his soul. It was the fact that Buffy trusted him so completely, and allowed herself to be so vulnerable. The eunuch jokes got annoying after a bit. Just sayin.

We really need to have a thread on Angel and his soul, and demon. I think I'll start one.
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
I love that! It makes sense!

ILLYRIAN

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Warning this is off topic.

bespangeled,
Why would that picture of Willow make you think of a drug addiction metaphor. As I've said before, that whole Willow and magic thing had nothing to do with a drug addiction metaphor.
 

bespangeled

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Warning this is off topic.

bespangeled,
Why would that picture of Willow make you think of a drug addiction metaphor. As I've said before, that whole Willow and magic thing had nothing to do with a drug addiction metaphor.
Well, I thought Whedon was trying for one - and it was horribly done. I guess there's another thread we need. :D
 

Kairos

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The key here is that the drug didn't give Angel a moment of perfect happiness, it just relaxed him and he dropped his guard, allowing the demon to have free rein.

I liked this episode a lot because it implied if not outright stated that Angelus is always inside Angel's head, and to stay on top Angel not only has to avoid happiness, but has to constantly, actively exert control over his evil impulses. For as long as we know him, he's always swimming upstream.

Granted, the language used in the episode muddles the issue a little bit, but I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that Angel didn't lose his soul here, and that we weren't meant to believe he did.
 
janas
janas
This! a thousand times this

janas

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@kairos, You just described the main reason why I love Angel. He fights against his nature every.single.day, it takes a lot of strength and determination and that is why I'm more inclined to forgive him when he makes mistakes and he fail, because I know how hard is for Angel fighting his demons. For him, nothing is ever easy.
 

Kana

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As many on this forum know, I have two theories when it comes to vampires and the nature of the soul. I think both theories it comes to down the happiness clause being a metaphysical side effect of the curse. So in other words it wasn't something that the Gypsies intended. Doximol was just an unforeseen reactor to the spell. We know that physical aspects of the verse can interact with the mystical, so maybe the curse simply 'reacted' the Doximol and gave Angel the chemical suggestion that his soul wasn't present. It also brings up the frightening conclusion that Angel doesn't need to lose his soul to behave like Angelus.
 

The Bronze

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I've just watched this episode recently and I think the best way for me to look at it is to ignore the bliss / happiness aspect of the drug and not allow that to mix with the clauses of his curse. I think this makes the most sense if you say that the drug renders Angel soul unconscious. So we do get to see Angelus briefly in this episode while the drug takes effect on the soul but the soul doesn't leave the body like it would for true happiness.
 

Cordy_Chase

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Your confusion is understandable, on the surface there is no sense to it, you have to look at it more kind of like a metaphor. Here is how I've come to see it:

"It's synthetic, not true happiness--he hasn't really turned."
Wesley called the drug Doximall and explained that it was "A powerful tranquilizer that induces bliss".
It is my belief that it acted as a LSD, it was administered as one and it has a trip span of 12 hours, we know it took at least overnight for the effects of the Doximall to wear off.

"LSD, peyote, psilocybin, and PCP are drugs that cause hallucinations, which are profound distortions in a person’s perception of reality. Under the influence of hallucinogens, people see images, hear sounds, and feel sensations that seem real but are not."

Don't forget that curse is broken by a moment of pure bliss. Being dosed with synthetic happiness caused a hallucinated sensation of the curse being fulfilled. The reason I see this as the behavior of a LSD is that a LSD causes a disruption in the communication between nerve cells and serotonin which are responsible for key sensations that connect the curse to Angelus; mood, hunger, muscle movement and sensory perception. Which would need to be fooled to cause Angel to involuntarily behave like Angelus.

Hopefully this made some sense and that my comparison isn't totally missing the mark. Sorry, hehe, I like Wesley tend to be a researcher.

This might suggest that a synthetic Angelus could also manifest from getting drunk or high. We actually do see it again when he's exposed to human blood in season three through being spiked with Connor's.

Hallucinagen/LSD information: http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/hallucinogens-lsd-peyote-psilocybin-pcp
 
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Fuffy Baith
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Great explanation, good enough for me. I'm sure either side could be argued though. But I buy it.

Tez

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I think they just did it because they wanted to see Wesley and Cordelia handle angelus without it being a whole big Angelus is the big bad that way they could justify it temporary I think it would've been better if it was maybe a spell or something but I love that episode so much especially when Cordelia turns up to Rebecca's with a huge cross round her neck and try's to pretend she's doesn't have it
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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I assume that anything a Watcher says is true, because usually the writers want us to believe it's true. It's still a crappy story mechanic. But, DUI works.
 

Spanky

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Why didn't they use this technique in season 4 when they needed to bring Angelus back to get answers? Surely it would have been quicker, easier, and contained far less risks?
I never thought it was Angelus. I thought it was all psychosomatic. He felt like he had a happy and expected Angelus to manifest, so he 'became' Angelus.
 
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