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Even as a Spike fan i found Spike's behaviour in 'Lies my parents told me' to be despicableHow fo

Discussion in 'Season 7' started by TamsinValencia, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Okay, fair enough. Can we just agree that Robin's plan was poorly planned and terribly executed, and if he had bothered to stop and think things out, he wouldn't have made such a stupid attempt at revenge? Not only dumb people do stupid things, they just do them more often.
     
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  2. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    There seems to be something is overlooked, probably because the story didn't deal with it right: Spike had a trigger. This transformed him into a monster. This wasn't something Spike chose, and trusting Spike to behave was ridiculous because the trigger overrides Spike's ability to choose. It was done to him. Spike was a victim. This trigger didn't make him evil, but it did make him dangerous. And the time he was restrained was minimal and often lackluster. Had it not been for plot armor then Spike would've killed a lot of people.

    It's comparable to Oz as a werewolf, only they couldn't plan around his werewolf condition where he was placed in a cage on the nights of the full moon. Spike would have to be kept in a cage continuously until a cure could be found.

    However, if you really think Buffy deserved an apology, then I think Robin and Giles deserve thanks for taking the trigger out of Spike. But I don't think people deserve an apology or thanks just because their recklessness or whatever actually works out well, neither Buffy nor Wood. If some drunk insists he can drive (maybe even say, "I have guardian angels/plot armor from God!") just fine despite the protests of others, and he actually makes it home fine without hurting anyone, I don't think he deserves an apology from his friends. His making it home doesn't make him right, it only makes him lucky.
     
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  3. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    This is my interpretation and attempt to explain Buffy's reasoning. I'm not defending her choice not to leave Spike restrained whenever she wasn't around, because I agree, no one except Buffy would have a snowball's chance of ever stopping him if he ever decided to kill. She was taking a big chance with Spike. But remember this. The first experience that Buffy had with triggered Spike was in a basement, when she was being held helpless by several vampires, and he DIDN'T feed on her. As I've said before, Buffy led with her heart as much as, or maybe more than, her head. I think that she saw someone who, despite a killer urge, was able to stop short of killing, at least that one time, and if he could do it once, she must have felt that he could, if necessary, do it again. You can't compare that with Oz, because he never demonstrated that sort of control as a wolf, even after he came back from Tibet. Once he lost his temper, the wolf took over.

    What it all boils down to is that Buffy took a chance on Spike. She gambled, and won, just like when she finally killed the first ubervamp. That's what Buffy does.
     
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  4. TriBel

    TriBel Scooby

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    @thrasherpix "And I'd like to see how Buffy knew Spike wasn't going to attack them while he had a trigger".

    My reading is that she couldn't know. I see that as the point of the season - to question what "knowledge" is, where knowledge comes from and to establish the relationship between knowledge and power. I was left with the impression that we can't fully know either ourselves or the other. Full knowledge of the self involves having total recall of everything we've ever done (including repressed or unconscious knowledge). If we can't fully know ourselves, how can we know the other? Therefore, the idea that we have full knowledge is an illusion - whose interests are best served by the illusion? Men's (read patriarchal) interests. IMO, it all feeds into totalisation and "the myth of (the) Enlightenment". "Instinct, intuition and feelings" have traditionally been coded as "female" and the poor relation to "reason". The problems you see as OOC, I see as Buffy persuading men to "think more like a woman" while simultaneously displacing the idea that intuition and trust are gender specific.

    Wood's reasoning was not objective - it served to maintain the notion of woman as Madonna (something Spike may be guilty of but is becoming more aware of); the extent to which Giles' reason was objective was questionable: his reasoning serves to maintain the notion of woman as child. According to Giles' reasoning, in order for Buffy to "grow" she needs to behave as a man. Giles lies about his instinct in order to maintain his status. Buffy doesn't. Unlike previous seasons there's no attempt to hide her feelings for Spike. I think @Priceless mentions in another thread that Buffy's proud of him (and I hadn't fully understood that until now but I think Priceless is right).

    "Not knowing" either ourselves or the other - is fearful. Fear of the external other leads to oppression; fear of the internal other results in suppression or repression. We see it in Willow, we see it in Spike. Buffy wants them to trust in themselves - to take a leap into the dark (figured as their own darkness). She does this by trusting in them - her trust feeds and nurtures them. What we see is their darkness brings them - and others - to the light. Buffy takes a similar leap into the dark when she shares her power. Admittedly, it doesn't fully pay off (as the comics explore - it's a utopic notion that doesn't address existing contradictions) but - at least she tries. IMO, when Giles says "he relies on you. You rely on him" he's right but the medium is love as trust not love as power.

    TBH, I've never identified with Buffy as a character but, as a woman, I really admire her guts in S7. The only real problem I had with S7 was Spike's hair in Episode 2 (too short) and not enough head-tilts. I can be extremely superficial.:(

    Apologies if the above sounds terse - it's not meant to be - I was trying to keep it short(ish). :)
     
  5. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Yeah, I agree that Robin's plan was stupid just not Robin himself :)
     
  6. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    I don't get the same reading as you in regards to the point of Season 7 being to question where knowledge comes from or how it relates to power. Nor do I see instinct, intuition or feelings as being totally the realm of the feminine. If you watch NCIS, Gibbs is the protagonist who relies quite often on "gut instinct" as to what happened or who is responsible in a particular situation and he credits it as such before following it up with investigation and logical deduction. "Numbers" was a show about a mathematician working for the FBI to predict what some criminal was going to do next and he had to select mathematical algorithms and equations that he thought would describe the situation by intuition. A lot of inventors credit gut instinct and something you could call "spontaneous enlightenment" for their success and as a patent holder, I agree. Logical deduction is one part of a functioning mind and intuition is another and they are like two legs walking - remove one and no progress can be made. Buffy has had intuition all along - it is just in Season 7 that she has stopped deferring to her patriarch (although she has defied him in earlier seasons almost from the beginning by wanting to reject her calling). Even when you learned arithmetic, for long division you had to pick a trial divisor and that was in some sense more instinct than algorithm.

    There is a power struggle in this season but it is not over who knows best but who is the most determined to make his or her will come to pass. Intuition is more often seen as a direct pipeline to reality, an unearned blessing from above or karmic opportunity and is regarded as a sign of rewarded accomplishment. Deductive logic is seen as something anyone with intelligence can apply that does not require any kind of "blessing from above". The great mystery writers use both intuition and deductive logic to have their protagonist figure out whodunit and there is no reason to pigeonhole either thought process as "masculine" or "feminine".
     
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  7. TriBel

    TriBel Scooby

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    I'm not disagreeing - and I'm not (personally) pigeonholing it. I'm not even saying it's necessarily "true". What I am saying is that if you were to compile a list of male/female qualities "reason", "rational thinking" tend to be seen as masculine qualities and "emotion", "intuition" tend to be seen as feminine qualities - particularly in representational forms. The great detectives were portrayed as combining the two poles to indicate they were in excess of the norm - it was the thing that marked them as different from the man in the street (and different from the police). They functioned to reassure people because they were better than us . Popular culture's been questioning it over the last 20/30 years - X-Files for example - reverses it. That aside, the great classical detectives and the noir private-eyes were associated with sight and the ability to see what ordinary people missed. All the greats could read the streets for clues - Dupin was a flaneur, as were Spade and Marlowe - they saw better than others. IMO, S7 is questioning the equation sight/knowledge and moving towards an embodied mind based on touch/instinct.

    Marlowe using all his talents and looking - I'm being self indulgent now. I love this (I love Marlowe). This is why God invented cities and Black Mask detectives.

    "It was a warm day, almost the end of March, and I stood outside the barber shop looking up at the jutting neon sign of a second floor dine and dice emporium called Florian’s. A man was looking up at the sign too. He was looking up at the dusty windows with a sort of ecstatic fixity of expression, like a hunky immigrant catching his first sight of the Statue of Liberty. He was a big man but not more than six feet five inches tall and not wider than a beer truck. He was about ten feet away from me. His arms hung loose at his aides and a forgotten cigar smoked behind his enormous fingers.

    ...He was worth looking at. He wore a shaggy borsalino hat, a rough gray sports coat with white golf balls on it for buttons, a brown shirt, a yellow tie, pleated gray flannel slacks and alligator shoes with white explosions on the toes. From his outer breast pocket cascaded a show handkerchief of the same brilliant yellow as his tie. There were a couple of colored feathers tucked into the band of his hat, but he didn’t really need them. Even on Central Avenue, not the quietest dressed street in the world, he looked about as inconspicuous as a tarantula on a slice of angel food.

    His skin was pale and he needed a shave. He would always need a shave. He had curly black hair and heavy eyebrows that almost met over his thick nose. His ears were small and neat for a man of that size and his eyes bad a shine close to tears that grey eyes often seem to have. He stood like a statue, and after a long time he smiled.

    He moved slowly across the sidewalk to the double swinging doors which shut off the stairs to the second floor. He pushed them open, cast a cool expressionless glance up and down the street, and moved inside. If he had been a smaller man and more quietly dressed, I might have thought he was going to pull a stick-up. But not in those clothes, and not with that hat, and that frame".:)
     
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  8. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    I might be wrong, but didn`t Robin say that before Trump did ?

    flow
     
  9. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    A lot of people have said that before Trump did.
     
  10. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    I didn't see it as terse, aggressive, passive aggressive, or anything else negative. :) And though I disagree with a lot of it, I strangely found it fun (I mean that in a good way) to read, and what you took from it is indeed interesting, though I'm certain unintended by the writers (who I think stopped giving a crap by that time, and were relying on some trite romance formulas for the most part when it came to the Spuffy). I don't see what you do on how Wood and Giles were acting.

    And I don't think logic or reason is normally championed as you describe, certainly not in the media. Offhand, the only fairly popular story I recall (though I'm sure I've forgotten some, and missed others) that ultimately downplayed feelings while promoting reason was a fiction story by Ayn Rand (though I also found it silly, like how stupid and ugly the villains were, while how smart and--if appearances were described--beautiful the good guys were that I couldn't take it seriously that the stupid people, ugly as they were on the inside as they were the outside, ruled the world, and even the Wizard of Oz didn't get that ridiculous). Maybe the Sherlock Holmes, though I only recall that praising logical deduction and not putting down intuition or feelings, but it's been a long time since I even saw the movie, let alone ready any book of him (I know I've read some other detective novels in which gut feelings were important). I could add Isaac Asimov, and yet he put in some twists about how easily logical deduction could be fooled or simply wrong (and btw, his female protagonists used deductive thinking as well).

    The rest generally has themes of heroes who know (often with a gut feeling or intuitive thinking) something that the rest don't, have themes of "trust yourself/your feelings" (like Star Wars), and I recall that the writing of the original Star Trek seemed to make fun of Spock and show that Spock was blinded by his adherence to logic compared to McCoy, and especially Kirk. And the shows by Joss Whedon tend to do that a lot as well, which is common, in part because of its popularity with viewers, male and female, who like that.

    And many love to say "trust your instincts" and such. And though I'm not necessarily against that, doing so can be spectacularly wrong. I've even met people who actually take pride in believing in something despite evidence to the contrary, and even in their own ignorance (seriously, they think not knowing about something is a virtue). Sadly, it finds its way into politics of all sorts (from left to the right) where people are encouraged to place faith over reason in some leader, aspect, or quality (where someone says it, followers believe it, that settles it), and that includes the voice of the dialectic as many other manifestations of "don't think, obey."

    Heh, I recall the landlord of a flophouse I stayed in for a few months, his "detective's intuition" told him I was the one to jimmy open the laundry machines to take the money (my room was right across from the laundry room) and would not listen to others who (in addition to saying that's why he's not a detective anymore) told him he was being ridiculous (I was the only one with a good paying job just there until I could properly move, didn't have major addictions like others staying there, etc) but he "just knew" (I can't recall if it was before or after this that he entered my room while he thought I was gone, which got me out of bed alarmed fast while he quickly retreated, I'll always wonder what he intended to do). And he wasn't the most ridiculous with his "intuition that is never wrong."
     
  11. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Yeah, but Trump owns the copyright on the line now.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 7, 2017 ---
    Not really. Throwing Buffy out of her own home (okay, saying, "You can't be here," and her agreeing and voluntarily leaving) completely disheartened her. If not for Spike's support and urging, she would have lain right there in that bed until the First Evil broke out of the hellmouth, or someone came and found her and convinced her to come back because Faith was too badly injured to effectively lead. In either case, Caleb, not Buffy, would have been the one to recover the Scythe, there would have been no spell activating all the Potentials, and no Spike wearing the amulet in the final battle (Okay, Angel could probably have done that) For that matter, there most likely wouldn't even have been any battle closing the hellmouth, the First Evil would have broken out, and the world would have been in deep trouble, at best.

    That personal betrayal in "Empty Places" might very easily have changed the entire course of the fight.
     
  12. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    Buffy was already disheartened and could have been disheartened further without having to leave her own home. Spike could still have come to her, maybe on the back steps or the basement, both places were 'theirs'. Caleb did uncover the scythe, but it was meant for the slayers, so only Buffy or Faith could have removed it from the rock and used it, so it was next to useless to Caleb.

    But really what I was saying was that in the moment of leaving her home Buffy was deeply hurt, but her hurt was nothing when compared to the fight they were facing. Which is why I was fine that it was never bought up again, or just skimmed over, we didn't need a big melodramatic soul-searching scene with everyone saying how sorry they were and they were so wrong to throw Buffy out etc. etc.

    On an emotional level it didn't matter, or only mattered for a moment, like Woods vendetta against Spike, because it's the mission that mattered and the war against The First. Buffy is The Slayer, she's be pulled back into the battle either way. Perhaps it will be bought up again in the comics season 13 and they could all just shrug, as they did 5 years after Xander's 'kick his ass' comment.
     
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  13. MarieVampSlayer

    MarieVampSlayer I’m the thing that monsters have nightmares about!

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    Sineya
    I honestly like Robin as a character and obviously understand his issues with Spike killing his mother. The problem I have with his vengeance is that it was too little too late. Spike had a soul now and had grown as a vampire and was not the same person who killed his mother. Robin even acknowledged that he knew he was not the same vampire that he was before. By trying to kill a souled Spike, he was trying to kill an innocent and that didn't matter to Robin. He had planned and trained to killed his mother's killer for years. For him, not killing spike was betraying the memory of his mother so it didn't care who Spike had become. Althought justified, Robins actions were immature because he didn't learn to forgive and understand that the slayer duty is a lethal one and he would have lost her mother very young for sure. Actually, he should be more pissed with the slayer mission and why his mother was chosen even thought she had a child.
     
  14. debbicles

    debbicles Townie

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    Apologies if someone has already said this. I seem to remember that at first Spike took responsibility for all his murders, including those before he regained his soul. Didn't he and Buffy have some talk while he was in chains and he said something along the lines of: it was me, there was nobody else there. I think the epi was NLM? So I was a bit surprised at his little speech of"that's not me anymore". I'd like to think it was that he meant he wouldn't do that again. But then he also said he didn't give a whatsit about Nikki, so I got confused yet again. And I absolutely adore this character- he is my all-time favourite fictional character. I tend to feel very protective towards him. Yes, silly of me! I think what I'm trying to say is that I was also disappointed by his reaction.
     
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  15. Dora

    Dora Potential

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    Nikki Woods must have had Robin before she was called , she must of hated having to fight every night knowing she probably never see her son grow up , The real difference between Nikki's every day fight against Vampires and Spike was that Spike hunted her down just as he did to Buffy he killed Nikki not that she was a personal danger to him but fore Bragging rites ....he even knew she had a young son .
    After conversations with dead things S7 became all about Spike what did this episode bring to the over all story, Why did the first want Spike to have a trigger ? Why was it not time yet ?After the ten innocent people Spike murdered had captured Buffy ,why did he not kill her he killed the others why not Buffy while under the influence of the first ?
    Woods triggered Spike as did the first to get the old Spike out , only why did he not kill Spike ? when Spike was mentally mixed up. Lucky for Spike he found that turning and then killing his mum was the reason the song could turn him before Woods could kill him , but I never understood why that would stop the trigger ?
    The Spike /Woods story intentionally help to isolate even more Buffy from Giles , Empty places enforces this and Touched Spike becomes Buffy's white Knight
    JW half hearted tried to right the wrongs in Chosen with the core four but they were done , Buffy the vampire slayer was done ,Just to emphasise Buffy last word after 7 season's was Spike
    Of course I blame Joyce now if she had cut off Spikes head with that Axe instead of hitting him with the blunt side.....
     
  16. buffy1990

    buffy1990 "Every now and then, people surprise you."

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    The difference in that scenario and Robin/Spike is that Buffy and Angel had a real relationship, so Angel wouldn't keep wearing something that hurt Buffy because he loves her.

    Robin and Spike don't have a relationship outside of Nikki, and considering how Robin went about the revenge, I don't see a reason for Spike to offer up the coat out of sympathy. On the flip-side, the coat meant something to Spike as a monster because it was a trophy, but with a soul it might just be a reminder of how much he has changed and something he wanted to keep. I'm not saying it's right or that I don't think wearing the coat is insensitive, but I don't really think Spike owes Robin anything.
     
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