• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

" faced with the same choice now, you'd let her die"

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,075
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
Up until S7 Spike was by all definitions a VILLAIN. Just because he sometimes did selfish things that turned out to be good for Buffy doesn't change that fact.
There was a line I loved from 'The Blacklist that immediately made me think of Spike. It went something like this; 'Doing good for selfish reasons doesn't make you good, it just makes you good at being selfish.'
I could argue that Spike was fundamentally a selfish creature until well into S7, since all he cared about was gaining Buffy's approval/forgiveness no matter what.
 

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
2,326
Location
Germany
I could argue that Spike was fundamentally a selfish creature until well into S7, since all he cared about was gaining Buffy's approval/forgiveness no matter what.
I don't think that point needs arguing. Because anyone who isn't biased towards the character could see that.

But that wasn't really the point I was trying to make. Buffy for some reason sees the guy who has tried to kill her, her friends or people (which he still did the previous Season or tried to anyway) repeatedly, attempted to rape both her and Willow and has killed for 120+ years and whose selfish actions she has somehow warped into love, as the only person in her life who has her back. While Xander is there with one less eye which he lost because he was watching her back. While Willow tries to do magic again despite the fact that she still isn't sure if she can handle it. While Dawn researches.

The only person worthy to watch Buffy's back is the guy who still hasn't even said a heartfelt 'I'm sorry.' for what he did to her the previous year. If there was ever a character who needed to hang up the stake and get a couple years of therapy, it's Buffy after S7.
 

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,031
Age
53
It all comes back to pressure on Buffy, since Spike had tried to Rape Buffy he had gone and got his sole he was different supportive, Xander was helpful as was Willow and Dawn unfortunately Giles came back a plank , Buffy was not isolated from her friends as in six.....but hears the crunch the first only could rise up because Buffy was brought back to life, because Buffy was dragged out of heaven. People were dying because she was brought back .If she had let Dawn jump she would have been devastated and possible Depressed but she would have nowhere near as much mental torment as she had in six .No more crap piled on Buffy by her so called friends, more fighting , more pain more deaths more Stress and nightmares all she did not want she was finished , she just wanted to be left alone in heaven but no....could be a reason she was so off with the Scoobies not only did they cause Buffy mental breakdown in Six they cause the first to rise in seven......
 
I don't think that point needs arguing. Because anyone who isn't biased towards the character could see that.

But that wasn't really the point I was trying to make. Buffy for some reason sees the guy who has tried to kill her, her friends or people (which he still did the previous Season or tried to anyway) repeatedly, attempted to rape both her and Willow and has killed for 120+ years and whose selfish actions she has somehow warped into love, as the only person in her life who has her back. While Xander is there with one less eye which he lost because he was watching her back. While Willow tries to do magic again despite the fact that she still isn't sure if she can handle it. While Dawn researches.

The only person worthy to watch Buffy's back is the guy who still hasn't even said a heartfelt 'I'm sorry.' for what he did to her the previous year. If there was ever a character who needed to hang up the stake and get a couple years of therapy, it's Buffy after S7.
Marti Noxious says she likes a depressive story line and pushed Spuffy as much as she could, Although the horrible smashed episode and the anal balcony rape / sex along with the invisible sex which even she disliked was all Joss ideas. Yes I not believe how much season seven became about Spike but then MN was the show runner for the later episodes...... until JW took over again for Chosen
 

YummySushiPJs

Scooby
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
535
Willow and Xander, and even Giles, have been there helping Buffy since the first episode. Buffy wouldn't even have made it past the first episode or Season without Xander.
Reading this just makes me mad at how unimportant Xander was by the end. He's so central in the beginning. Just like he supported Dawn with that excellent speech about being extraordinary, he should have been the one Buffy went to for support, not Spike. Pretty much everyone agrees the whole "Everybody turns against Buffy" scene is awful, makes no sense, and is terribly written - and is only done as a means to get Buffy in Spike's arms. For a show that's usually so intelligent and clever, this has to be the low point of the whole series. (Thinking about it, Spike's speech to Buffy is basically the same speech Xander gave to Dawn but re-worded).

Ugh, it probably shouldn't bug me so much but there's SO much I'd change about season 7. I just hate the fact we spent 6 seasons following the core characters only to have a final season that focused on everything but them.
 

CharlieGunn1

Ready for battle...
Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Messages
284
Location
LA
Two things, the biggest mistake of season 7 was bringing in all the slayerettes. Some where nice additions, but overall they tended to slow down the plot, and just constantly were rehashing information we already knew.

It turned the last few episodes into a jumble of quippy dialogue and we had precious little time to spend with characters that had grown and changed over the course of 7 years.

That being said, that moment was mean show that Buffy had lost a lot of herself after season 5, and was only beginning to realize how much she'd changed, eroded by the passage of time and difficulty. The grind was getting to her, and the approach of yet another big evil that she couldn't stop was going to strip more away of what little humanity she felt she had left.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
I like how your signature excludes Cordelia.

YummySushiPJs

Scooby
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
535
That being said, that moment was mean show that Buffy had lost a lot of herself after season 5, and was only beginning to realize how much she'd changed, eroded by the passage of time and difficulty.
I don't think we needed that moment to show that. It was increasingly obviously throughout Season 7. That moment was done solely so we could have Spuffy snuggle up together, and to Hell with how badly they had to write the core characters to achieve it.
 

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
2,326
Location
Germany
Reading this just makes me mad at how unimportant Xander was by the end. He's so central in the beginning.
You know I always agree with that. And it's very true. However I see it as a blessing in disguise. Being totally ignored by the writers was a good thing during UPN!Hell. Xander was never my fave character but he was pretty much the only one I was rooting for to make it out of S7 alive (well and Faith). And the only one that I still liked. What little stuff he did get in S7 was great (minus the Selfless stuff). Considering what was done to/with the characters the writers did actually focus on, the best thing to happen was being ignored by them.

Just like he supported Dawn with that excellent speech about being extraordinary, he should have been the one Buffy went to for support, not Spike.
Not just Dawn. He was the one that rallied the troops together with his 'Buffy rocks!' speech to the potentials. It's Buffy's job, as the leader, to be able to get her troops together but she was too busy treating everyone like crap. And how painful must it have been for Xander after that speech. He got his eye poked out and Buffy couldn't even bother staying at the hospital with him and then he comes home and is told that 'he's not worthy' to watch Buffy's back. I wonder if he was rethinking the whole 'Buffy rocks' speech.
 

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
15,546
Age
72
Location
rome, georgia
I could argue that Spike was fundamentally a selfish creature until well into S7
I don't think that point needs arguing. Because anyone who isn't biased towards the character could see that.
The only person worthy to watch Buffy's back is the guy who still hasn't even said a heartfelt 'I'm sorry.' for what he did to her the previous year.
Let's be honest here. Apologies in the Buffyverse are few and far between. Whether it's something as trivial as making fun of someone's social status or trying to destroy the whole world, the two simple words, "I'm sorry," almost never get spoken in the Buffyverse, not by Buffy, Dawn, Cordy, Angel, Spike, Giles, Xander, or anyone else who had as much as a bit part in a single episode. And God forbid that anyone actually step up and face any sort of justice for anything that they ever did.

I think that just about the only really repentant person in the entire series was Faith, and she busted out of prison before serving her full sentence.
 
NileQT87
NileQT87
You clearly haven't seen the vid that is entirely made up of Angel acting apologetic and saying sorry. Connor even shouts at him, "Don't say you're sorry!" Take him off the list. He feels guilt for everything, including things that weren't even him.

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
2,326
Location
Germany
Let's be honest here. Apologies in the Buffyverse are few and far between. Whether it's something as trivial as making fun of someone's social status or trying to destroy the whole world, the two simple words, "I'm sorry," almost never get spoken in the Buffyverse, not by Buffy, Dawn, Cordy, Angel, Spike, Giles, Xander, or anyone else who had as much as a bit part in a single episode. And God forbid that anyone actually step up and face any sort of justice for anything that they ever did.

I think that just about the only really repentant person in the entire series was Faith, and she busted out of prison before serving her full sentence.
You know how low my bar is for 'heartfelt' when it comes to Spike? NOT blaming everybody else for his crimes, situation, status, lot in life or whatever else you cant think of. That's how low my bar is. 'Heartfelt' in terms of an 'I'm sorry.' would have been to NOT lay all the blame for S6 on Buffy or even better, never darken her doorstep again. I don't except the words 'I'm sorry.' to ever actually come out of his mouth and mean anything because I think he's totally incapable of doing that.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,075
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
Let's be honest here. Apologies in the Buffyverse are few and far between.
It's not just that's there's no apology from Spike, its that he calls Buffy out for his treatment of her the previous year whilst also failing to say sorry. I mean, that is a brand new low that I had never actually seen before on the show.
'Hey, I know I tried to rape you but y'know, you like men who hurt you so I guess you brought it on yourself luv.' Urgh.

Whether it's something as trivial as making fun of someone's social status or trying to destroy the whole world, the two simple words, "I'm sorry,"
And yet Willow managed to apologize- several times. Faith apologized to Buffy's face twice, Angel apologized to Giles. It does happen.
 
Spanky
Spanky
Didn't Faith also apologize to Wesley?

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
15,546
Age
72
Location
rome, georgia
And yet Willow managed to apologize- several times. Faith apologized to Buffy's face twice, Angel apologized to Giles. It does happen.
So does the legendary blue moon. It just happens so rarely that each time that it happens is a major event. People in the Buffyverse do regret their actions, quite often, in fact. (Strangely, that doesn't always stop them from making the same, or similar, mistake again) The might even take steps to atone for those mistakes. Anyone actually saying the words, however, doesn't happen very often, and Spike is by no means the one most guilty.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
I don't think that point needs arguing. Because anyone who isn't biased towards the character could see that.

But that wasn't really the point I was trying to make. Buffy for some reason sees the guy who has tried to kill her, her friends or people (which he still did the previous Season or tried to anyway) repeatedly, attempted to rape both her and Willow and has killed for 120+ years and whose selfish actions she has somehow warped into love, as the only person in her life who has her back. While Xander is there with one less eye which he lost because he was watching her back. While Willow tries to do magic again despite the fact that she still isn't sure if she can handle it. While Dawn researches.

The only person worthy to watch Buffy's back is the guy who still hasn't even said a heartfelt 'I'm sorry.' for what he did to her the previous year. If there was ever a character who needed to hang up the stake and get a couple years of therapy, it's Buffy after S7.
Spike has one constant trait throughout the entire series: his loyalty. First to his mother, then to Dru and then to Buffy.

The reason Spike did not say he was sorry was because of how hollow it would sound.
 

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,031
Age
53
Spike has one constant trait throughout the entire series: his loyalty. First to his mother, then to Dru and then to Buffy.

The reason Spike did not say he was sorry was because of how hollow it would sound.
That wasn't loyalty, that was being needy..... his obsession moved, first with his mum, then to Dru and onto Buffy , as for saying sorry why would he as JM said Spike was evil.Spike didn't feel sorry for the things he had done, he blamed Buffy for what happened in season six because he was sorry for himself...poor lamb
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
6,715
Sineya
Spike has one constant trait throughout the entire series: his loyalty. First to his mother, then to Dru and then to Buffy.

The reason Spike did not say he was sorry was because of how hollow it would sound.
That true. Spike was never one for empty gestures which is why he didn't do it .
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
That wasn't loyalty, that was being needy..... his obsession moved, first with his mum, then to Dru and onto Buffy , as for saying sorry why would he as JM said Spike was evil.Spike didn't feel sorry for the things he had done, he blamed Buffy for what happened in season six because he was sorry for himself...poor lamb
Needy schmeedy ... Bottom line is: Spike did not have any issues that interfered with his loyalty to Buffy. His obsessions with other women had proven strong. Spike, with or without a soul, is no saint, but he was the right person at the right time.
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
6,715
Sineya
And say what you will Spike did more in a few months with a soul than Angel did in a hundred years.
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
6,715
Sineya
We don't know that & he didn't know he was killing them so that docent's count :D
 

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,031
Age
53
And his loyalty was Stalking Buffy , abusing a mentally ill Buffy , Trying to rape her, he bragged like a sixteen year old school boy about being with Buffy to Angel , but not about him trying to rape her...there is and was only one thing Spike was loyal to that was Spike
 
Top Bottom