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" faced with the same choice now, you'd let her die"

W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
And his loyalty was Stalking Buffy , abusing a mentally ill Buffy , Trying to rape her, he bragged like a sixteen year old school boy about being with Buffy to Angel , but not about him trying to rape her...there is and was only one thing Spike was loyal to that was Spike
Well, loyal may not be the right word, but you get what I meant. He makes strong attachments.

Spike being loyal to Spike. Sort of. When he comes back to Sunnidale in season 3, he calls himself "love's bitch". Of course, it is a good life lesson to know that those that genuinely love you can still hurt you.
 

ITAI

Townie
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He also killed more people in those few months than Angel did in 100 years. So swings and roundabouts really.
Well Angel with a soul decided to return with Darla and the group, and he murderd humans, maybe no innocents but humans, and being honest when he was with Darla faking being Agelous who many innocents Darla murdered and he allowed?

Now forgetting all the Spike issues and returning to the original question, i also believe that if there had not been other choice she would have sacrifice Dawn on S5, but on S7 she´s so "cold" that she has no problems to admit it, and still before she talked to Giles at the end of LMPTM we can see her
Stroking Dawn´s hair like she used to do it.
 
W
WillowFromBuffy
Not only did Angel rejoin Darla in China. He had sex with her in L.A. in the hope he would lose his soul.

thetopher

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Sineya
Well Angel with a soul decided to return with Darla and the group, and he murderd humans, maybe no innocents but humans
Apparently they were less innocent than the hapless folks of Sunnydale that trigger-Spike stalked and murdered and turned (they could've killed others). Plus Angel at least tried to save that missionary family. And saved a baby.

being honest when he was with Darla faking being Agelous who many innocents Darla murdered and he allowed?
By the same token Spike was still triggered for almost the entire time of S7; he and Buffy knew it, and yet they did nothing much to counter it. No search for a cure/treatment, no 'always around Buffy just in case', Spike was allowed to roam free for large periods of time except when he was chained up in the basement. He hung around the Potentials, Dawn and Willow (who we know that the First wanted dead).
Also it seems apparent by how Spike came to view the trigger that he didn't really care after the initial shock revelation, because Buffy didn't care. And Spike always takes his moral cues from her.

@WillowFromBuffy: And Spike tried to shag soulless Harmony when he became re-corporealized and nobody has a problem with it. Double standard.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
@WillowFromBuffy: And Spike tried to shag soulless Harmony when he became re-corporealized and nobody has a problem with it. Double standard.
I don't see how that compares to Angel trying to break his gypsy course. By Chosen, Spike has come to the conclusion that Buffy will never really love him back, so he gives his life to the cause, hoping it will make Buffy always remember him with fondness. That makes him basically single once he is restored to life, no? At least there is no chance that he will lose his soul.

Spike with Harmony is Spike at his absolute worst. Harmony is Spike's revenge upon all women after Dru leaves him. Spike worships Dru and Buffy, and he likes Dawn, Joyce and Fred. He is quite indifferent to the rest of the world.

The reason I prefer Spuffy to Bangel is not because Spike is some paragon of virtue. To Angel, Buffy represents innocence. Everything that he has lost. Spike looks at Buffy and sees a warrior. Spike's ideal is a sort of romantic version of the übermensch. To me, the latter is just more appealing. And Spike is better looking.
Spike always takes his moral cues from her.
Most of them, yes. :p
 

GraceK

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Darla says " Rapists, Scoundrels and Murderers. You only hunt the evil doer now". How is that a bad thing? People point out Angel returning to Darla as the equivalent to murdering innocent people. Ah no. There are many books and stories of the vigilante hero, vampire or human who hunts evil people and they are usually applauded for it. Angels kills EVIL humans once in his long lifetime and Angel haters act like Christmas came early. See!!! He's worse than Spike!!! And during a moment of despair at NOT being able to truly save the world from evil in his view, he slept with Darla!!! OMG how terrible. Moral ambiguity with Angel is apparently the worst thing ever..on Spike though? Omg it's so sexy and just makes him the unique snowflake he is.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Moral ambiguity with Angel is apparently the worst thing ever..on Spike though? Omg it's so sexy and just makes him the unique snowflake he is.
Pretty much :p You how to give us some credit. We have to work so much harder to show that Angel is the bad one.

I guess everything you say is more or less true, except the fact that being somewhat selective with whom he kills does not make Angel a vigilante hero and that he clearly intended to turn himself into Angelus when he slept with Darla.
 

GraceK

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Pretty much :p You how to give us some credit. We have to work so much harder to show that Angel is the bad one.

I guess everything you say is more or less true, except the fact that being somewhat selective with whom he kills does not make Angel a vigilante hero and that he clearly intended to turn himself into Angelus when he slept with Darla.
Am I the only one though that is getting irritated that lately every thread, even if its
About the mailman, seems to come back to Angel vs Spike?
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
All right. In a vain attempt to get this back on track, I will say this: I enjoy Buffy's arc in the latter 3 seasons. The Buffy I want is the hero - the one who lives by principles rather than pragmatic callousness. In season 5 she is brought to her knees. Her sacrifice is somewhat ambiguous. Is this really just a convenient excuse to end herself? Things become more muddled - read interesting - in season 6 when we learn that Buffy has spent time in Heaven. Buffy spends the final two seasons trying to become the hero again. This can only happen after she is brought down completely. We get a reprise of the "ME!" moment from Becoming. Huzzah!

The Buffy I like is the one that starts an episode crying and ends it by firing a rocket launcher at her boyfriend. She gets knocked down and comes back up.In the latter seasons, it just takes longer.
 

thetopher

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I don't see how that compares to Angel trying to break his gypsy course.
He wasn't- not really. The gypsy curse is 'perfect happiness' not 'sex'. Angel knows this deep down. The start of 'Epiphany' is merely a subversion that taunts with audience expectation 'oh no Angel loses his soul' but it was despair that made Angel use Darla so shamelessly, not lust.

On the other hand Spike is just a horn-dog who is using Harmony for sex because she's there and convenient. Same old same, old really. We can't judge soulless Harmony but we can judge Spike trying to drag her off like a caveman before (blatantly) asking for some sort of permission.

Like @GraceK says it's odd how Spike's foibles are perceived off as 'sexy bad boy' and romanticized whereas Angel is just an Alpha jerk or whatever.

Most of them, yes.
Not really. Spike with a soul has no moral core outsuide of Buffy. Whatever she wants/thinks is his truth. I find that beyond dull in any sort of relationship which is why Bangel- for all its faults- is more interesting to me.
 

RomanticSoul

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I like my heroes to actually be heroes. I wonder how badly the monks warped Buff's brain because as soon as Dawn showed up, Buffy stopped being a hero. Now whether Buffy was programmed not to let Dawn die no matter what, we will never know. But her refusal to let Dawn jump when Dawn was willing to sacrifice herself instead of letting billions die, including Dawn lets not forget, was the action of a villain. Heroes have to make the make the hard call, that's why they are heroes. Heroes don't let billions die. Her jump, despite the fact that it shouldn't have worked anyway per the rules set up through the whole Season, was a suicidal resignation anyway. 'Dawn, life is too hard for me so I'm checking out, kthanxbye'. In S6 she had nothing to do with saving the world from Willow because she apparently left part of her brain behind in the coffin and forgot that you can't solve every problem with a punch (paging early Seasons Buffy of the 'Earshot' variety). In S7 the world was thankfully saved by W&H from Buffy's stupidity.

The line about 'same choice, you'd let her die' was just to show the new General Buffy. Which of course meant nothing when Whedon invalidated it by having Buffy send Dawn away in the Finale. So just empty words apparently. But then Whedon didn't pay much attention to the Season anyway before he came in at the end to write the Finale.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
He wasn't- not really. The gypsy curse is 'perfect happiness' not 'sex'. Angel knows this deep down. The start of 'Epiphany' is merely a subversion that taunts with audience expectation 'oh no Angel loses his soul' but it was despair that made Angel use Darla so shamelessly, not lust.
Except that when he crawls out on the balcony, he is clearly disappointing to find his soul intact.
On the other hand Spike is just a horn-dog who is using Harmony for sex because she's there and convenient. Same old same, old really. We can't judge soulless Harmony but we can judge Spike trying to drag her off like a caveman before (blatantly) asking for some sort of permission.
If I was a lesser person, I would say: 'At least he did not throw her through a door.' I won't, though. I have nothing. Spike treats the BuffyBot better than he treats Harmony. I think he shows a little bit of remorse in the end, but not much.
Not really. Spike with a soul has no moral core outsuide of Buffy. Whatever she wants/thinks is his truth. I find that beyond dull in any sort of relationship which is why Bangel- for all its faults- is more interesting to me.
Characters like Spike always have some moral core. For Spike, I would say it is loyalty. When Spike shoves Xander against a tree after seeing Buffy is alive, I think there is a bit of moral outrage there. Spike and the Scoobies were comrades in arms. It gave Spike a purpose. That meant something to Spike. Seeing that it meant less to the Scoobies makes him angry.

In series 4-5, Spike is often motivated by money to help, but no amount of kittens would have been enough to bribe Spike into selling out one of the people he has decided to protect. That is certainly not enough to make him good, but for me it makes him compelling.
 

GraceK

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Except that when he crawls out on the balcony, he is clearly disappointing to find his soul intact

How so? He's not disappointed, he's shocked at low he has gotten. This is the moment he has his epiphany, which is why he tells her she saved him. Saying that he's disappointed that he didn't lose his soul is total projection, not actually what plays out onscreen. Honestly I find it amazing what people can see when they just dislike a character . It's like TRYING to find something bad.
 
RomanticSoul
RomanticSoul
It's like missing the point, ON PURPOSE. Hate just makes some people warp canon into fanon.

thrasherpix

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The reason I prefer Spuffy to Bangel is not because Spike is some paragon of virtue. To Angel, Buffy represents innocence. Everything that he has lost. Spike looks at Buffy and sees a warrior. Spike's ideal is a sort of romantic version of the übermensch. To me, the latter is just more appealing. And Spike is better looking.
This is a reason for loving Spuffy I can understand and get behind (however suspicious I might be of appearances tweaking the justification). I would point out that Spuffy had no real respect for her (ignoring her words to back off, going through her things, stealing from her, etc), but he does finally show respect for her (if no one else) in season 7.

That said, you seem to at least lack disapproval for Spike's suicidal self-sacrifice the same way you seem to disapprove of Buffy's end in season 5 despite that both were saving the world in the process and both came back (through no plan or expectation of their own, and not appreciating the fact).
 

ITAI

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Darla says " Rapists, Scoundrels and Murderers. You only hunt the evil doer now". How is that a bad thing? People point out Angel returning to Darla as the equivalent to murdering innocent people. Ah no. There are many books and stories of the vigilante hero, vampire or human who hunts evil people and they are usually applauded for it. Angels kills EVIL humans once in his long lifetime and Angel haters act like Christmas came early. See!!! He's worse than Spike!!! And during a moment of despair at NOT being able to truly save the world from evil in his view, he slept with Darla!!! OMG how terrible. Moral ambiguity with Angel is apparently the worst thing ever..on Spike though? Omg it's so sexy and just makes him the unique snowflake he is.
The thing is that both Angel and Spike have double standars, Spike acts like i don´t have to feel remorse by what i did as a vampire wich is a double standar, and Angel acts like let´s "divide" humans between the good and the bad ones, the one ones are innocents and he feel remorse for them, the bad ones nah is like i don´t have to feel guilty for them, Faith was a murder, i know some fans are gonna say that her circumstances were different, but he decided that she could be redeemed, why the Scoundrels and Murderers that he killed couldn´t be redeemed? why they didn´t deserve a "second chance"? After all he was also a rapist and a murder, double standar.

Now the thing about at least he save a baby, he did but that doesn´t change the fact that he was around 2 yers with the clan, and the question is during the two yeras Darla, Spike and drusilla killed only rapists, Scoundrels and Murderers? i think the answer is no, they killed innocents and Angel for his reasons (fear, uncertainty, confusion) whatever fans wanna call it, he allowed it.

I´m Spangel, i like both characters, and both of them have things that like and dislike.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
How so? He's not disappointed, he's shocked at low he has gotten. This is the moment he has his epiphany, which is why he tells her she saved him. Saying that he's disappointed that he didn't lose his soul is total projection, not actually what plays out onscreen. Honestly I find it amazing what people can see when they just dislike a character . It's like TRYING to find something bad.
Everything is my projection. I am a slave to fancy - a prisoner in my own mind. I am not even sure if any of you are real or if I am making you all up.

I guess I see Angel with some prejudice, though I really cannot see how I am wrong here. He has an epiphany in the end, but to me, his original intention is clearly to lose his soul. Maybe I am mad. Who knows? :p
This is a reason for loving Spuffy I can understand and get behind (however suspicious I might be of appearances tweaking the justification). I would point out that Spuffy had no real respect for her (ignoring her words to back off, going through her things, stealing from her, etc), but he does finally show respect for her (if no one else) in season 7.
Thank you! Perhaps we can say Spike respects Buffy as an idea, but fails to respect her as an autonomous person? Respect is a tricky word. I tend to favour worships. I do not see myself as being blind to Spike's faults. I very deliberately look past them.
That said, you seem to at least lack disapproval for Spike's suicidal self-sacrifice the same way you seem to disapprove of Buffy's end in season 5 despite that both were saving the world in the process and both came back (through no plan or expectation of their own, and not appreciating the fact).
You are asking me why I approve of Spike's sacrifice in Chosen when I disapprove of Buffy's sacrifice in the Gift?

Well, first of all, I hold Spike and Buffy to completely different standards :p Buffy is a 3-dimensional persona and a role-model. Spike is a re-imagining of a popular character trope from romantic fiction.

I do not disapprove of Buffy's sacrifice. I am happy she saved Dawn. I do, however, question Buffy's motivations. It may sound like I give Buffy a hard time, but I really do love her a lot. I am one of the few people I know who appreciates Buffy's depression arc.

As I see it: Spike's sacrifice shows how much Buffy matter to him. She is his last remaining anchor to the world. Rather than waiting for her to break up with him, he decides to prove his love to her by sacrificing himself. After his resurrection, Spike is afraid to face Buffy again, because the sacrifice has become meaningless. All of this makes me feel for Spike. I don't really question whether I approve of it or not. I enjoy him. I am not his mother :p
 

MarieVampSlayer

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Sineya
I always remembered this line from Buffy as I thought it explained a lot about who Buffy had become. We have to remember that this is a girl who has been throught so much in the last 7 years and had fought a lot of battles. I always thought that by Season 7 she had become emotionally unattached when it come to fighting evil and saving the world. You can even see it a little in CWDP where she knows she's gonna win against the vampire and has no emotion about it,No matter how much she tried, she could'nt prevent the deaths of loved ones (Tara, Angel, Jenny, Herself, etc) and she understood that sacrifices were almost necessary in order to accomplish her mission.

Maybe this is even caused by Tara's death in a way because even thought it was never really mentionned in the season, Buffy was actually close to Tara and her death must have affected her. Maybe she had too much and just couldn't allow herself to feel anymore like she did when she was younger.

This is just theories but I always felt that it explained alot of her character and why there is a big contrast with Buffy the senior slayer and the potentials. Sure they were overly annoying but they don't understand the game and how to play it. The potentials are all emotions, immaturity and stupid decisions because they don't understand the responsabilities of being a slayer and the sacrifices that Buffy made throughout the years. As for Buffy, she doesn't feel she has the time nor the energy to invest emotionally in new people that will probably die in the end.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
I always thought this line was strange because it shows an odd regression almost?

Buffy in Season 2 kills (sends to hell) the love of her life to save the world.
Buffy in Season 5 tells Giles, I had to kill Angel and now you want me to kill Dawn and I can't do it, I can't live in this world if these are the choices....
Buffy in Season 7 says she would sacrifice Dawn if necessary. Thing is she says it so cold and distant I don't even get that she cares all that much. Where as when she started her journey she would sacrifice her loved ones for the world she would at least care. Now, not so much. I mean she didn't even know what the amulet would do and she let Spike wear it.

Side note: Found it funny how Angel got dragged in the mix in the argument in this thread randomly. Not sure how that happened. I guess you can't criticize Spike without the compulsory "but... but... but...Angel did this...." lol. It gets old.
 

Mylie

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I always thought this line was strange because it shows an odd regression almost?

Buffy in Season 2 kills (sends to hell) the love of her life to save the world.
Buffy in Season 5 tells Giles, I had to kill Angel and now you want me to kill Dawn and I can't do it, I can't live in this world if these are the choices....
Buffy in Season 7 says she would sacrifice Dawn if necessary. Thing is she says it so cold and distant I don't even get that she cares all that much. Where as when she started her journey she would sacrifice her loved ones for the world she would at least care. Now, not so much. I mean she didn't even know what the amulet would do and she let Spike wear it.
Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure if Buffy being so cold during s7 was intentional or not but it just feels like a weird writing choice to me and that line makes it worse. Like you said, Buffy being worried about turning to stone was a big thing in s5 and balancing being a human being with feelings and being a hero was how she ended up saving the day. Then in s6, she can't feel anything and is depressed because of that. Then at the end of the season her depression is gone and she finally seems like herself again. I don't understand the choice to make her so cold after she's just been depressed for a whole season. She wasn't able to feel anything and now she wants to prevent herself from feeling? She's basically shutting it off. How is that better? Are we supposed to believe that it's healthy? I just don't understand what the writers are trying to do here.
 

thetopher

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The thing is that both Angel and Spike have double standars, Spike acts like i don´t have to feel remorse by what i did as a vampire wich is a double standar, and Angel acts like let´s "divide" humans between the good and the bad ones, the one ones are innocents and he feel remorse for them, the bad ones nah is like i don´t have to feel guilty for them
Those are double standards I suppose. The difference is that Spike's double standard serves himself and Angel's double standard is more practical, one that many in society share; Frankly people care less when evil folk die, but when good folk die they feel bad for them, and yet all of them are miraculous human beings. Some in society even execute bad humans for being bad.
So then does society have a double standard? Maybe it does. Or maybe it has a more complex view of morality.

Faith was a murder, i know some fans are gonna say that her circumstances were different, but he decided that she could be redeemed, why the Scoundrels and Murderers that he killed couldn´t be redeemed? why they didn´t deserve a "second chance"? After all he was also a rapist and a murder, double standar.
Faith had deep self-loathing for her actions that Angel recognized, he saw it in himself. Also Faith was young, which was a mitigating factor. Did those murderers in long ago China have such deep self-loathing for themselves that they wanted to die?
Maybe they did but Angel has changed as well, over a hundred years. So his altered moral stance regarding Faith makes more sense than Spike's 'I'm a brand new me...except for when it suits' one.

Now the thing about at least he save a baby, he did but that doesn´t change the fact that he was around 2 yers with the clan
I don't know where people get '2 years' from, try two days. He was in China with Darla in 1900 and when he left to go to America he arrived in New York in 1900 (according to Orpheus). Angel did not hang with the gang for more than a week. Fact.

I always thought this line was strange because it shows an odd regression almost?
Buffy in S7 is about being this isolated, heartless general who would apparently sacrifice anybody. And I don't think we're supposed to view her 'I would kill Dawn' as a good thing, even it were true. This is Buffy trying to be somebody she is not. After all in the end she chose to send Dawn away to be safe with Xander (her heart). It was only because Dawn chose to come back that Buffy accepts her presence when the end comes.

Also after this conversation with Giles Buffy runs to save Spike. And in End Of Days she runs to save Faith and the Potentials. Buffy puts up the pretense of being miss 'the mission is what matters', and succeeds to an extent, but she is still compassionate to a fault when it comes to those she cares about.
 

katmobile

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How so? He's not disappointed, he's shocked at low he has gotten. This is the moment he has his epiphany, which is why he tells her she saved him. Saying that he's disappointed that he didn't lose his soul is total projection, not actually what plays out onscreen. Honestly I find it amazing what people can see when they just dislike a character . It's like TRYING to find something bad.
Yeah cos no one ever does that to Spike now do they?
 
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