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" faced with the same choice now, you'd let her die"

katmobile

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I don't read Buffy's statement as heartlessness as she clarifies it with I have to, to save the world. That doesn't exclude her making the same choice to end her own life if she has to but she's saying that she couldn't stand Dawn dying before whereas she could sacrifice Angel even if it caused her agony and guilt that's the comparison. And the point is moot Spike doesn't have to die when he decides he does she lets him.
 

DeadlyDuo

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I don't know where people get '2 years' from, try two days. He was in China with Darla in 1900 and when he left to go to America he arrived in New York in 1900 (according to Orpheus). Angel did not hang with the gang for more than a week. Fact.
I think it's because we see Angelus get souled in 1898 then he's "still" with the group in 1900. There's a scene where Darla initially rejects Angelus because of the soul but I can't remember if that is before or after the Gypsy camp scene with the rest of the Whirlwind. I think he then convinces her to let him re-join the group.

The Boxer rebellion is when Angel leaves the group for good because he couldn't kill the baby that Darla had brought after killing the missionary family Angel had previously saved. At this point is probably where the rest of the Whirlwind went their separate ways.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
I think it's because we see Angelus get souled in 1898 then he's "still" with the group in 1900. There's a scene where Darla initially rejects Angelus because of the soul but I can't remember if that is before or after the Gypsy camp scene with the rest of the Whirlwind. I think he then convinces her to let him re-join the group.
The Boxer rebellion is when Angel leaves the group for good because he couldn't kill the baby that Darla had brought after killing the missionary family Angel had previously saved.
Having watched Darla recently. Here's basically what happens:
  • Angelus gets ensouled by gypsies (Becoming Pt 1)
  • Angel gets rejected/threatened by Darla, called a monster and thrown out into the street (Five By Five, I think)
  • Angel attacks tries to feed off a young woman but fails. The woman's male companions drag him away as Angel screams that he's a monster. (Five By Five)

- 1898. Angel staggers about somewhere in Romania. Darla, Drusilla and Spike find the gypsies (It's clear from the dialogue that Dru and Spike are unaware of the reasons they're her. They don't know where Angelus is although Dru is worried that he'll be mad he missed the massacre). Darla threatens to kill the tribal leader's wife and daughters unless he undoes the spell. But Spike has already eaten them. Darla kills the leader and tells the others to slaughter them all. (Darla)

  • 1900- In China Angel (filthy and ragged) catches up with Darla. She is disgusted because he reeks of the vermin he's been feeding off. But Angel manages to convince her that they can still be together like they were before even if he has a soul. Darla is skeptical but is persuaded that 'her boy' has come back to her.
  • The Boxer Rebellion. Spike kills a slayer and Angel guides the Whirlwind away from a missionary family he saved from a Boxer.
  • still in China, Darla is wearing the same dress. Angel comes to her and she she accuses him of only killing evil people 'rapists and murderers, thieves and scoundrels'. Darla reveals that she went back and found the missionaries still cowering. She tells Angel to prove himself and reveals the missionary baby. Angel can't kill it, instead grabbing it and fleeing into the night.
So not years, not months. A week at most.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Having watched Darla recently. Here's basically what happens:
  • Angelus gets ensouled by gypsies (Becoming Pt 1)
  • Angel gets rejected/threatened by Darla, called a monster and thrown out into the street (Five By Five, I think)
  • Angel attacks tries to feed off a young woman but fails. The woman's male companions drag him away as Angel screams that he's a monster. (Five By Five)
- 1898. Angel staggers about somewhere in Romania. Darla, Drusilla and Spike find the gypsies (It's clear from the dialogue that Dru and Spike are unaware of the reasons they're her. They don't know where Angelus is although Dru is worried that he'll be mad he missed the massacre). Darla threatens to kill the tribal leader's wife and daughters unless he undoes the spell. But Spike has already eaten them. Darla kills the leader and tells the others to slaughter them all. (Darla)

  • 1900- In China Angel (filthy and ragged) catches up with Darla. She is disgusted because he reeks of the vermin he's been feeding off. But Angel manages to convince her that they can still be together like they were before even if he has a soul. Darla is skeptical but is persuaded that 'her boy' has come back to her.
  • The Boxer Rebellion. Spike kills a slayer and Angel guides the Whirlwind away from a missionary family he saved from a Boxer.
  • still in China, Darla is wearing the same dress. Angel comes to her and she she accuses him of only killing evil people 'rapists and murderers, thieves and scoundrels'. Darla reveals that she went back and found the missionaries still cowering. She tells Angel to prove himself and reveals the missionary baby. Angel can't kill it, instead grabbing it and fleeing into the night.
So not years, not months. A week at most.
I thought Angel staggering about in Romania was where he gets souled by the gypsies?
 
thetopher
thetopher
Nope. He gets souled, goes back to Darla, gets rejected, then staggers around in the wilderness whilst Darla tries to reverse it. He tracks her down years later.

DeadlyDuo

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@thetopher But Angel spoke to the gypsy man who told what had been done to him which was the same place where the rest of the whirlwind killed them. This is where Angel gets his soul.




We do then see Angel staggering around whilst the rest of the Whirlwind kill the camp so it seems like Darla's rejection happens between this scene and the camp massacre.
 

thetopher

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But Angel spoke to the gypsy man who told what had been done to him which was the same place where the rest of the whirlwind killed them.
Obviously that was the gypsy camp. Or there's the fact that there are many parts of Romania that look alike and the gypsies move about in the outdoors a lot.
Remember that Darla is the one that stole the 'favored daughter' of the tribe for Angelus to torment and kill, so she clearly must've known where to find the gypsies again after the fact.

Makes me wonder why the gypsies tergeted Angelus and not Darla, since she was equally if not more responsible for the death.

Darla's rejection happens between this scene and the camp massacre.
Darla's rejection only happens when she finds out that Angelus has been ensouled. So only after does she have a change of heart and try to undo what the gypsies did.
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
It's pretty strongly hinted that Angelus raped the gypsy girl so maybe that's what put him in the firing line over Darla.

nightshade

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Black Thorn
Not sure how the Angel timeline is relevant to the original topic, so can we get back to that instead.
 

katmobile

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Obviously that was the gypsy camp. Or there's the fact that there are many parts of Romania that look alike and the gypsies move about in the outdoors a lot.
Remember that Darla is the one that stole the 'favored daughter' of the tribe for Angelus to torment and kill, so she clearly must've known where to find the gypsies again after the fact.

Makes me wonder why the gypsies tergeted Angelus and not Darla, since she was equally if not more responsible for the death.



Darla's rejection only happens when she finds out that Angelus has been ensouled. So only after does she have a change of heart and try to undo what the gypsies did.
I have thought about this and two possibilities occur one is that they assumed he did it and he boasted if it and it got back to them, the second I think is more likely that the actual spell said 'return the soul of the vamp who he killed her' so the curse went to the actual murderer rather than the woman who kidnapped her and gave her to him.
 
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Black Thorn
I know this isn't about the original topic, but I think everyone is being a bit unfair to both Angel and Spike while desperately trying to defend the other.
From what I've seen the soul basically gives them the ability to change, and plus in School Hard Spike says something along the lines of "We're demons, we don't change."
So when they regain a soul they will not revert back to their human selves ( as Angel is nothing like his human self). They also do not forget what the soulless version of themselves have done so they are still going to have some form of their soulless personality.
They both do bad after they have gained a soul because they have been given a chance to be someone who isn't a monster. Both of them seem to attach themselves to someone who they loved before after they regained a soul (Angel to Darla, Spike to Buffy). The only difference is Angel was attached to someone evil whilst Spike was attached to someone good. They both have an identity crisis because they are monsters with a form of morality so they both try and find where they fit in the world which we can see through the name change from Angelus to Angel and Spike's temporary change in clothing.
Spike doesn't really care about the now while he's whining in the school basement but we see him truly change in Angel when he decides to help Angel instead of running off to Buffy.
The same as seeing Angel truly change when he doesn't kill that baby when Darla asks him to.
 
K
katmobile
I think Spike is trying at first but he's a mess not helped by the fact the first is pushing him down.
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Black Thorn
@katmobile
It would be weird if he wasn't a mess.
It's just that his redemption arc had to happen fairly quick whilst he was fighting a big bad that he didn't have time to change much.
 
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