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Faith was better than Buffy

Last Watcher

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Most of the available back story for Faith comes from the book 'Go ask Malice'. This shows her childhood as coming from a poor, abusive, broken home.
 

GraceK

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I may have forgotten something, but where is it said that Faith did not have a loving family or any of the advantages Buffy had? She had PTSD following what Kakistos did to her watcher. She is from Boston. We don't know much else about her prior life. She has characteristics that may be derived from some form of abuse, but no one ever says explicitly she suffered any specific form of abuse. She may have been a spoiled rich kid like Kennedy, but without any sense of morals or concept of right or wrong. I have met people like that. I don't consider Faith to be better than Buffy because the evidence we see says the opposite.
The only mention of her family that I can remember off the top of my head is when she's speaking to the Mayor about her mom, and she's says "enjoying the drinking and passing out parts of life". So I think her mom was an alcoholic but I don't remember much else.
 

Ethan Reigns

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The only mention of her family that I can remember off the top of my head is when she's speaking to the Mayor about her mom, and she's says "enjoying the drinking and passing out parts of life". So I think her mom was an alcoholic but I don't remember much else.
So she had the same start in life as Xander but Xander did not have the same criminal tendencies.
 

Athene

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I may have forgotten something, but where is it said that Faith did not have a loving family or any of the advantages Buffy had? She had PTSD following what Kakistos did to her watcher. She is from Boston. We don't know much else about her prior life. She has characteristics that may be derived from some form of abuse, but no one ever says explicitly she suffered any specific form of abuse. She may have been a spoiled rich kid like Kennedy, but without any sense of morals or concept of right or wrong. I have met people like that. I don't consider Faith to be better than Buffy because the evidence we see says the opposite.
She said her mother hits her and is an alcoholic, there's nothing about Faith that says runaway rich kid and everything about her that says abused kid. Why would Faith be living in a dirty hotel room if she had a loving family and friends back in Boston? A loving family would have gone to sunnydale with her if she wanted to meet Buffy, or certainly given her money to stay somewhere better than where she was staying.
 

GwenRaiden

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I think it speaks volumes about Faith's mentality and emotional wellbeing that, when she first appears, she assumed Buffy and her would have an instant connection because they were both slayers; it makes me sad for her. I always felt her need to belong was almost instantly rejected by a group of entitled characters.

Dushku's acting in BtVS was very hit and miss for me though, so I found it hard to truly invest in her as a character, until she showed up in Angel. She had definitely improved by then.
 

thetopher

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She has characteristics that may be derived from some form of abuse, but no one ever says explicitly she suffered any specific form of abuse.
Faith strongly infers that her drunk Mom used to hit her. That's physical abuse.
Also implied bad sexual experiences; this isn't abuse but explains her view of men and her long litany of trust issues regarding guys.

So she had the same start in life as Xander
Xander clearly suffered from neglect. Neglect is not the same as harmful abuse. Also Xander had a home and parents.
 

Athene

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So she had the same start in life as Xander but Xander did not have the same criminal tendencies.
It's not the same thing as Xander, there's nothing suggesting that Xander was ever physically abused, his parents drank a lot but that doesn't mean that they abused him, certainly not to the extent that it's suggested Faith was abused at.
 

GraceK

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I always felt her need to belong was almost instantly rejected by a group of entitled characters.
I don't understand where the entitled comes from. Cordelia was entitled, Harmony was entitled. The scoobies weren't. Xander had a pretty abusive and crappy home life. Willows mother ignored her to the point of neglect. Buffy had a nice mom, but her dad abandoned the family and Joyce had her head up her butt most of the time. So this idea of the Scoobies being entitled kids who looked down on Faith really makes no sense to me. They liked her a lot actually when she first showed up...after she went psycho it was another story.
 

GwenRaiden

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I don't understand where the entitled comes from. Cordelia was entitled, Harmony was entitled. The scoobies weren't. Xander had a pretty abusive and crappy home life. Willows mother ignored her to the point of neglect. Buffy had a nice mom, but her dad abandoned the family and Joyce had her head up her butt most of the time. So this idea of the Scoobies being entitled kids who looked down on Faith really makes no sense to me. They liked her a lot actually when she first showed up...after she went psycho it was another story.
I don't mean entitled in terms of their social status, more their judgemental attitude towards Faith as an individual, as a slayer, because they had Buffy, who was the slayer in their eyes. They were always going to support Buffy first and foremost.
 

GraceK

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It's not the same thing as Xander, there's nothing suggesting that Xander was ever physically abused, his parents drank a lot but that doesn't mean that they abused him, certainly not to the extent that it's suggested Faith was abused at.
I agree that there is no evidence to suggest that Xander had nearly the same amount of abuse that Faith received. You really can't compare the two of them :)

However, there is definitely enough evidence to suggest that Xander was terrified of his dad, at least in the first four seasons. His dream in Restless shows his fear of his father pounding on the door and yelling. I personally think he was hit by his dad. But I have no proof. His parents verbally abusive and drunk marriage scarred him though , as evidenced again by his fears that manifested in Hells Bells.

Just because he had parents and a home doesn't mean he wasn't abused.
 

Athene

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I don't understand where the entitled comes from. Cordelia was entitled, Harmony was entitled. The scoobies weren't. Xander had a pretty abusive and crappy home life. Willows mother ignored her to the point of neglect. Buffy had a nice mom, but her dad abandoned the family and Joyce had her head up her butt most of the time. So this idea of the Scoobies being entitled kids who looked down on Faith really makes no sense to me. They liked her a lot actually when she first showed up...after she went psycho it was another story.
I don't disagree but there is a huge class and well being difference between Faith and the scoobies. For example, Willow is a middle class girl who was neglected, and obviously that's horrible but she does have the status to look down on Faith, who is an abused girl who's always lived in poverty, behaves like trash as they'd call it and resides in a hotel room permanently. Willow wouldn't have meant to but I bet even just Willow's privilege to go to school and have university be her priority probably intimidated Faith, because even if Faith wanted that stuff her upbringing wouldn't have given her those advantages. I'm not saying that the scoobies looked down on Faith or that they're entitled but them just living their lives probably made her feel as though she was being looked down on. That's because kids like Willow just aren't normally friends with kids like Faith...could you imagine what Willow's mum would think if Faith was invited over to have a sleepover! Willow's mum would disapprove big time.
 

Last Watcher

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I've always seen it that the core group had started to pull away from Faith before things went south in a big way. Cordy was pulling Xander away as she thought Faith was after her man, Willow thought Faith was stealing her best friend, Buffy was too sidetracked keeping Angel secret from the rest of the group, & Giles just seemed blind to what was going on. Then the problems with Gwendolin Post (badly handled again by Giles) pushed her even further away as she felt the others were too quick to side against her & her defence mechanisms cut in & started to shut them out.

Go ask Malice suggests that several of her drunken/junkie mothers boyfriends were (possibly sexually) abusive towards her.....
 

Athene

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I agree that there is no evidence to suggest that Xander had nearly the same amount of abuse that Faith received. You really can't compare the two of them :)

However, there is definitely enough evidence to suggest that Xander was terrified of his dad, at least in the first four seasons. His dream in Restless shows his fear of his father pounding on the door and yelling. I personally think he was hit by his dad. But I have no proof. His parents verbally abusive and drunk marriage scarred him though , as evidenced again by his fears that manifested in Hells Bells.

Just because he had parents and a home doesn't mean he wasn't abused.
That's fair enough, I would say he's the closest out of the scoobies to having Faith's life.
 

GraceK

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I don't disagree but there is a huge class and well being difference between Faith and the scoobies. For example, Willow is a middle class girl who was neglected, and obviously that's horrible but she does have the status to look down on Faith, who is an abused girl who's always lived in poverty, behaves like trash as they'd call it and resides in a hotel room permanently. Willow wouldn't have meant to but I bet even just Willow's privilege to go to school and have university be her priority probably intimidated Faith, because even if Faith wanted that stuff her upbringing wouldn't have given her those advantages. I'm not saying that the scoobies looked down on Faith or that they're entitled but them just living their lives probably made her feel as though she was being looked down on. That's because kids like Willow just aren't normally friends with kids like Faith...could you imagine what Willow's mum would think if Faith was invited over to have a sleepover! Willow's mum would disapprove big time.
I can see what point your trying to make, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Willow at first was the one who admired Faith, and felt Buffy didn't try hard enough. Willow looked down on Faith not for having a crappy home life or for living in a hotel room, she looked down on Faith for blaming Buffy for Finchs death and trying to kill Xander.

If Faith felt intimidated by the mere fact that Willow had the chance to go university or because the scoobies lives seemed superficially better, that's completely her problem. Those are her own insecurities and shouldn't be blamed on anyone else. But to be fair, I never got the impression that Faith was in anyway jealous of Willow. It was Buffy's life she wanted. I think it does Willow and Xander and Buffy a big disservice to assume they would never have been friends with someone of Faitha background purely on a class level. We see no proof of that. They judged her on her actions .
 

Athene

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I've always seen it that the core group had started to pull away from Faith before things went south in a big way. Cordy was pulling Xander away as she thought Faith was after her man, Willow thought Faith was stealing her best friend, Buffy was too sidetracked keeping Angel secret from the rest of the group, & Giles just seemed blind to what was going on. Then the problems with Gwendolin Post (badly handled again by Giles) pushed her even further away as she felt the others were too quick to side against her & her defence mechanisms cut in & started to shut them out.

Go ask Malice suggests that several of her drunken/junkie mothers boyfriends were (possibly sexually) abusive towards her.....
Exactly, I feel like Faith was just too different for them, they weren't use to her behaviour, language, dress style, attitudes towards sex. It made sense that they'd pull away from her a bit but I still find it sad. I feel like Giles just either didn't care about Faith or didn't know how to handle her.
 
GraceK
GraceK
This makes a lot more sense to me

GraceK

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I've always seen it that the core group had started to pull away from Faith before things went south in a big way. Cordy was pulling Xander away as she thought Faith was after her man, Willow thought Faith was stealing her best friend, Buffy was too sidetracked keeping Angel secret from the rest of the group, & Giles just seemed blind to what was going on. Then the problems with Gwendolin Post (badly handled again by Giles) pushed her even further away as she felt the others were too quick to side against her & her defence mechanisms cut in & started to shut them out.

Go ask Malice suggests that several of her drunken/junkie mothers boyfriends were (possibly sexually) abusive towards her.....
I agree 100 percent
 

Athene

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I can see what point your trying to make, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Willow at first was the one who admired Faith, and felt Buffy didn't try hard enough. Willow looked down on Faith not for having a crappy home life or for living in a hotel room, she looked down on Faith for blaming Buffy for Finchs death and trying to kill Xander.

If Faith felt intimidated by the mere fact that Willow had the chance to go university or because the scoobies lives seemed superficially better, that's completely her problem. Those are her own insecurities and shouldn't be blamed on anyone else. But to be fair, I never got the impression that Faith was in anyway jealous of Willow. It was Buffy's life she wanted. I think it does Willow and Xander and Buffy a big disservice to assume they would never have been friends with someone of Faitha background purely on a class level. We see no proof of that. They judged her on her actions .
Yeah obviously it would be Faith's own insecurities and what she can't help feeling but I feel like that's why Faith and Willow weren't going to be close friends, they're too different. I was referring to before Faith accidentally killed someone though, so she hadn't actually done anything wrong yet. At first Willow and Xander were intrigued by Faith but after that nothing really happens between them, and then you have Willow starting to resent Faith for sleeping with Xander and hanging with Buffy. Which was a tad selfish seeing as Faith wasn't trying to take anything from Willow.
 

BuffyBot22

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I like Faith, but I love Buffy. Faith is enjoyable to watch, but no way is she the better character or person. Faith put Buffy and the scoobies through hell in s3 and then came back to wreak havoc on them some more in s4. I know she grows up and does her time and eventually becomes a good person, but it doesn't change her past.

Buffy and the scoobies welcomed Faith. Buffy and Faith were even friends, but then Faith betrayed her by blaming killing the human on her. That was wrong. This is when Buffy and Giles lost their trust in Faith. If she had just been honest about what happened to Giles, I think Buffy and Giles both would have helped her. It was an accident, it's not like she meant to kill him. But, framing Buffy, that was no accident, that was deliberate. And from then on went her spiral towards darkness. She didn't come out of this darkness until she took responsibility for her actions and turned herself in.

Maybe Buffy has complained over the years, but she has never abandoned her duty as the slayer. She has died for her friends and family. She has killed the love of her life for her friends and family. And what 16 year old wouldn't complain about having to save the world over and over again and basically having an expiration date of the age of 20 (and that's if you're lucky). Everyone complains about their life, even if it is a good one. It doesn't make Buffy's pain any less real. And it's not like she exactly had it easy. Her father left them and basically has nothing to do with her. Who even knows what Joyce was even doing as a mother until s5? Sure, Buffy had friends unlike other slayers. You can argue that they helped her which they did, but they were also a burden at times since she had to worry about protecting them in battle.

Overall, Buffy has endured so much over the years, but she never gave up. And I honestly don't find her whiny. I never understand when people think she is an entitled princess. She is anything but that.


She said her mother hits her and is an alcoholic, there's nothing about Faith that says runaway rich kid and everything about her that says abused kid. Why would Faith be living in a dirty hotel room if she had a loving family and friends back in Boston? A loving family would have gone to sunnydale with her if she wanted to meet Buffy, or certainly given her money to stay somewhere better than where she was staying.
Rich kids can be abused and neglected as well. I do agree with you, that nothing about Faith insinuates that she has money or a loving family. But, Cordelia did come from money and she lived in a dingy, roach infested apartment in LA where she cried herself to sleep at night. I know her parents went broke, but most likely not broke enough to not help out their daughter in some way. But, it's like Cordy goes to LA and to hell with her. Her parents didn't help her either.
 

Athene

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I like Faith, but I love Buffy. Faith is enjoyable to watch, but no way is she the better character or person. Faith put Buffy and the scoobies through hell in s3 and then came back to wreak havoc on them some more in s4. I know she grows up and does her time and eventually becomes a good person, but it doesn't change her past.

Buffy and the scoobies welcomed Faith. Buffy and Faith were even friends, but then Faith betrayed her by blaming killing the human on her. That was wrong. This is when Buffy and Giles lost their trust in Faith. If she had just been honest about what happened to Giles, I think Buffy and Giles both would have helped her. It was an accident, it's not like she meant to kill him. But, framing Buffy, that was no accident, that was deliberate. And from then on went her spiral towards darkness. She didn't come out of this darkness until she took responsibility for her actions and turned herself in.

Maybe Buffy has complained over the years, but she has never abandoned her duty as the slayer. She has died for her friends and family. She has killed the love of her life for her friends and family. And what 16 year old wouldn't complain about having to save the world over and over again and basically having an expiration date of the age of 20 (and that's if you're lucky). Everyone complains about their life, even if it is a good one. It doesn't make Buffy's pain any less real. And it's not like she exactly had it easy. Her father left them and basically has nothing to do with her. Who even knows what Joyce was even doing as a mother until s5? Sure, Buffy had friends unlike other slayers. You can argue that they helped her which they did, but they were also a burden at times since she had to worry about protecting them in battle.

Overall, Buffy has endured so much over the years, but she never gave up. And I honestly don't find her whiny. I never understand when people think she is an entitled princess. She is anything but that.




Rich kids can be abused and neglected as well. I do agree with you, that nothing about Faith insinuates that she has money or a loving family. But, Cordelia did come from money and she lived in a dingy, roach infested apartment in LA where she cried herself to sleep at night. I know her parents went broke, but most likely not broke enough to not help out their daughter in some way. But, it's like Cordy goes to LA and to hell with her. Her parents didn't help her either.
I agree with most of this and I don't hate Buffy the character, but it does make me like her character less because we spend 7 seasons watching her with people who love her, obviously she goes through a lot of pain but I wanted her to recognise that she had people who could help make the pain go away if she let them.
On the Faith blaming Buffy thing, I did cringe when she did that, it was absolutely the worst thing that she could have done but I think she did it because she felt like nobody was going to have her back and that she was going to be sent to prison. In short I think it was out of fear.
 

GraceK

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I like Faith, but I love Buffy. Faith is enjoyable to watch, but no way is she the better character or person. Faith put Buffy and the scoobies through hell in s3 and then came back to wreak havoc on them some more in s4. I know she grows up and does her time and eventually becomes a good person, but it doesn't change her past.

Buffy and the scoobies welcomed Faith. Buffy and Faith were even friends, but then Faith betrayed her by blaming killing the human on her. That was wrong. This is when Buffy and Giles lost their trust in Faith. If she had just been honest about what happened to Giles, I think Buffy and Giles both would have helped her. It was an accident, it's not like she meant to kill him. But, framing Buffy, that was no accident, that was deliberate. And from then on went her spiral towards darkness. She didn't come out of this darkness until she took responsibility for her actions and turned herself in.

Maybe Buffy has complained over the years, but she has never abandoned her duty as the slayer. She has died for her friends and family. She has killed the love of her life for her friends and family. And what 16 year old wouldn't complain about having to save the world over and over again and basically having an expiration date of the age of 20 (and that's if you're lucky). Everyone complains about their life, even if it is a good one. It doesn't make Buffy's pain any less real. And it's not like she exactly had it easy. Her father left them and basically has nothing to do with her. Who even knows what Joyce was even doing as a mother until s5? Sure, Buffy had friends unlike other slayers. You can argue that they helped her which they did, but they were also a burden at times since she had to worry about protecting them in battle.

Overall, Buffy has endured so much over the years, but she never gave up. And I honestly don't find her whiny. I never understand when people think she is an entitled princess. She is anything but that.




Rich kids can be abused and neglected as well. I do agree with you, that nothing about Faith insinuates that she has money or a loving family. But, Cordelia did come from money and she lived in a dingy, roach infested apartment in LA where she cried herself to sleep at night. I know her parents went broke, but most likely not broke enough to not help out their daughter in some way. But, it's like Cordy goes to LA and to hell with her. Her parents didn't help her either.
So much yes to all of this!!
 
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