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Faith?

Guy

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Something should be done in the comics about Buffy and Faith being the last two "natural" Slayers in the line. All of the current crop are only in existence due to Willow's spell. A story line could be built around that one simple fact. Something like, this many Slayers existing at one time causes some sort of metaphysical overload in the world, so most of the newbies have to be shipped off to Mars or something (Kennedy could be the leader of the Mars team) Parallel realities and alternate universes have been done to death in this sort of thing, but someone with Joss' creative ability should be able to get rid of a whole bunch of the little buggers in a reasonable manner.

That's pretty much what season 8 was all about.

Kinda. The impression I got from their last encounter is that Buffy was incredibly thrilled to have Giles back in her life- in whatever form- and as she and the Scoobies were fussing over him, all that 'good feeling' momentarily bled over onto Faith being there. I can't see Buffy's reactions coming organically from anything else.
After the thrill of the battle victory had worn off no doubt things would've been back to the way they were before- so Faith did the sensible thing and left.

Bearing in mind the last time Faith had been around any of them Buffy was upset about Giles 'picking' Faith over her his will and Xander was apparently staring hate-daggers.

1) That's still the healthiest that the Buffy-Faith relationship had ever been. At the very least, it's the healthiest that it's been since 'Amends'.

2) While Giles' return was definitely a big factor in Buffy getting along with Faith, it's not like Buffy would have hated Faith if Giles didn't come back. In season 8, in Tibet, Buffy and Faith actually got along well, despite being in tough circumstances. Later, when Giles died, Buffy was clearly upset about Giles leaving his house to Faith (How could she NOT be upset at that time?), but she still didn't fight with Faith or anything - she and Faith got along well, and they were both very mature about the whole thing.
So, when Buffy and Faith behaved so friendly in season 10, I didn't see it as a "temporary glow" over Giles' return - I saw it as another step in their reconciliation, which had been progressing slowly since season 4.

I wanted to post that comics page here (it's a lovely moment!), but for some reason it doesn't get approved. Oh well.

3) Don't forget that Faith and Willow ALSO got close in season 9, in addition to Faith's close relationship with Giles. So, I think that if Faith became a scooby, she'd get along pretty well with most of the gang.

I understand you find it frustrating, but I enjoy it. Faith had to be edgy and dangerous and different to Buffy. Faith is the one who 'deals with' vampire children, now can you imagine Buffy doing that? If they actually became friends Faith would be changed by that friendship, and that the change wouldn't be good for her character or for the drama/conflict. People say that Spike is simply Buffy's lapdog, now toothless and a shadow of what he used to be (I don't agree but I understand where they are coming from) and I can see the same being said if Faith and Buffy become friends. Faith would slowly lose her edge, she'd end up becoming just another scoobie. And that really would be boring

Gotta disagree here. The big problem that tends to occur with ANY long-running story is that the writers become afraid to change things. People love certain things about characters (their goodness, or their badness, or their rebelliousness, etc...), and the writers become afraid of changing that. THAT is the biggest problem I have with Spike in seasons 9 & 10 (I still love him, mind you) - he's no longer as dynamic as he was in seasons 2-7, he doesn't change as much. Good characters need to change, or they become boring. Spike's problem isn't the fact that he's "Buffy's lapdog" (he's not), it's the fact that he's too static. If the writers want Spike to be as interesting as he was in the TV show, then they need to change him as quickly as he changed in the TV show.
And the same is true of Faith - her arc in the TV show was extremely dynamic. She managed to go from good to bad, and back to good, over the course of less than 20 episodes! That's why Faith was so interesting.

And fortunately, unlike Spike, Faith remained just as dynamic in the comics. She still continues to change and grow, and that's a GOOD thing.

As for the relationship between Buffy and Faith - I think that their relationship is kinda like Iron Man and Captain America's relationship:
They started as total opposites, with Tony being a rebel (like Faith) and Steve being a boy-scout (like Buffy). Then, they started changing into each other - Buffy/Steve got more rebellious, and Tony/Faith got more responsible. And ironically, over time, they ended up replacing each other - Buffy/Steve became the rebellious one, and Tony/Faith became the responsible one. As Faith said:

cb8704bca57314a1b63fd0aeec38df07.jpg


This is great. This is EXACTLY how character development should work. And this continued in the comics too, fortunately, and it should continue even more, IMO. Let Buffy get darker and more rebellious, and let Faith get more responsible and mature.
And if you put Buffy and Faith in the same story together now, with them both being so opposite in such different ways, then it could be a terrific story. Let them be friends for a while. And then let them get torn apart again - but this time for the opposite reasons.
I'd read the hell out of that story.
 
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thetopher

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1) That's still the healthiest that the Buffy-Faith relationship had ever been.

Not really. They were plenty friendly at the beginning of S3. In fact their high point was 'Bad Girls' pre-Finch's death, not 'Amends'.

2) While Giles' return was definitely a big factor in Buffy getting along with Faith, it's not like Buffy would have hated Faith if Giles didn't come back. In season 8, in Tibet, Buffy and Faith actually got along well, despite being in tough circumstances. Later, when Giles died, Buffy was clearly upset about Giles leaving his house to Faith (How could she NOT be upset at that time?), but she still didn't fight with Faith or anything - she and Faith got along well, and they were both very mature about the whole thing.

1) In Tibet Faith comforted Buffy during a tough time, there was no real reciprocation as far as I could see.
2) After Giles death Buffy (and Xander) were upset with Giles and Faith, so its easy to see why Faith didn't really wanna stick around.

3) You're forgetting Buffy calling Faith 'utterly selfish' in S9 because she didn't drop everything and come running over to help with the Dawn situation. Show's that Buffy's opinion/view of Faith hasn't really changed.

The thing is I don't see Buffy's attitude to Faith evolving in any real sense in the comics, which is why I don't think their meeting in S10 was anything but superficial pleasantries made easier by the return of Giles. I don't think it was a sincere offer and I'm guessing that was part of the reason Faith turned it down.
 

Guy

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Not really. They were plenty friendly at the beginning of S3. In fact their high point was 'Bad Girls' pre-Finch's death, not 'Amends'.

1) My main point is that in season 10, Buffy and Faith were more friendly than they were ever since Faith went evil.

2) I actually think that they were closer in 'Amends'... 'Bad Girls' was mostly about an adrenaline rush, and about Buffy being pissed at Wesley and trying to lash out. I didn't see any real intimacy there, the way we saw in 'Amends'.

In Tibet Faith comforted Buffy during a tough time, there was no real reciprocation as far as I could see.

The fact that Buffy even ALLOWED herself to be vulnerable with Faith like that is progress, as far as I'm concerned.

After Giles death Buffy (and Xander) were upset with Giles and Faith, so its easy to see why Faith didn't really wanna stick around.

Xander was upset with Faith. Buffy was upset in general, because GILES JUST DIED, but I didn't see any sign of hostility toward Faith from Buffy. All we see in that scene is Buffy being solemn, and Faith being supportive ("It says you're the slayer. You're the only slayer. You always were").

You're forgetting Buffy calling Faith 'utterly selfish' in S9 because she didn't drop everything and come running over to help with the Dawn situation. Show's that Buffy's opinion/view of Faith hasn't really changed.

No, no, no. I think that you misread that moment. That moment was when people started forgetting about Dawn's existence (because Dawn was fading, due to the lack of magic). Faith was one of the first people to forget about Dawn (because she barely knew Dawn anyway), so when Buffy called, Faith simply said something like "Who's Dawn?", and therefore, Buffy thought that Faith was just trolling her. Trolling her when it was a matter of life and death. That's why Buffy was mad. It was a simple misunderstanding, due to magical reasons.
And once Buffy realized that people were forgetting Dawn, she obviously put two and two together, and realized that Faith WASN'T trolling her.
 
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white avenger

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Something should be done in the comics about Buffy and Faith being the last two "natural" Slayers in the line.

That's pretty much what season 8 was all about.

But Season 8 wasn't a Buffy/Faith bonding story line, which is what I was referring to. Buffy and Faith have been enjoying what would be best described as peaceful coexistence since Season 7. Just because they haven't actually been fighting, that doesn't make them friends again.
 

thetopher

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I actually think that they were closer in 'Amends'... 'Bad Girls' was mostly about an adrenaline rush, and about Buffy being pissed at Wesley and trying to lash out. I didn't see any real intimacy there, the way we saw in 'Amends'.

There are different kinds of closeness. 'Amends' was friendly-ish, Buffy having the guts to go and invite Faith for Christmas (because her Mom told her to) and Faith having the guts to show up- and be vulnerable. It was about two of them 'starting over' again.
'Bad Girls' was 'slayer-closeness', just as viable as what was seen before, just unique to them. Not just adrenaline.

The fact that Buffy even ALLOWED herself to be vulnerable with Faith like that is progress, as far as I'm concerned.

Eh, Buffy was overwhelmed by the pressures of leadership and just staring off into the middle distance as I remember. It's hardly a stellar moment considering their last (awful) encounter.

No, no, no. I think that you misread that moment.

It's not about what was actually happening- I know what the plot was about- its about Buffy's mindset. Buffy thinks that Faith is basically that same selfish person, its her default assumption about her.
So therefor Buffy was not really being sincerely friendly at the beginning of S10, because there has been no development of any other relationship. There is no reason as to why Buffy would 'suddenly' want Faith around given all their previous encounters in the comics.
If there HAD been some development, even little bits of improvement, then it would've been a vet welcome scene and a promise of some future reconciliation. If/when Faith does show up again, I couldn't predict if Buffy's response would be positive or negative, and that's just sad.
 

Guy

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There are different kinds of closeness. 'Amends' was friendly-ish, Buffy having the guts to go and invite Faith for Christmas (because her Mom told her to) and Faith having the guts to show up- and be vulnerable. It was about two of them 'starting over' again.
'Bad Girls' was 'slayer-closeness', just as viable as what was seen before, just unique to them. Not just adrenaline.

I think I have a real soft spot for vulnerability in characters, and for characters not abusing vulnerability... My favorite moment is actually when Buffy answers the door, and Faith's there, and they both greet each other politely. That's the only moment where I was like "wow, Buffy and Faith really CARE about each other. This really MEANS something to them".

By contrast, 'Bad Girls' fell into the "they feel these feelings because they're programmed to" trope, which I never found compelling.

Eh, Buffy was overwhelmed by the pressures of leadership and just staring off into the middle distance as I remember. It's hardly a stellar moment considering their last (awful) encounter.

It's a stellar moment BECAUSE of their last encounter. The last time they saw each other, they were trying to kill each other. Now, they're actually talking with each other, and being open and vulnerable. That's HUGE progress, after what we saw in 'No Future For You'.

It's not about what was actually happening- I know what the plot was about- its about Buffy's mindset. Buffy thinks that Faith is basically that same selfish person, its her default assumption about her.

That's not her default assumption, that's just the natural thing to assume after that phone call.

So therefor Buffy was not really being sincerely friendly at the beginning of S10, because there has been no development of any other relationship. There is no reason as to why Buffy would 'suddenly' want Faith around given all their previous encounters in the comics.
If there HAD been some development, even little bits of improvement, then it would've been a vet welcome scene and a promise of some future reconciliation. If/when Faith does show up again, I couldn't predict if Buffy's response would be positive or negative, and that's just sad.

Why would Buffy suddenly want Faith around? Maybe because Faith fought by her side against Twilight. Maybe because when Faith got Giles' inheritance, she didn't rub it in Buffy's face, but instead tried her best to console Buffy. Maybe because Faith took it upon herself to bring Angel back to sanity after the whole Twilight thing. Maybe because Buffy learned about the Dawn amnesia, which made her realize that her assumption about Faith was wrong. Maybe because Faith brought Giles back to life. Maybe because Faith just saved Buffy's life, and the life of her friends.

Most likely, because of all of those things combined.

I'm gonna bet that the next time Buffy and Faith meet, they're gonna be friendly with each other - unless something negative and Fuffy-related happens between now and then.
 

thetopher

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That's the only moment where I was like "wow, Buffy and Faith really CARE about each other. This really MEANS something to them".

It's a sweet scene but its not deep, y'know. It's simply the promise of something more. I can't get worked up about a 'potential' good thing.

By contrast, 'Bad Girls' fell into the "they feel these feelings because they're programmed to" trope, which I never found compelling.

The only programming that slayers get is by their Watchers, everything else is instinct that they either embrace or fight against or cope with however they want. But those feelings- unique to them- bind Buffy and Faith closely together.
It's why 'Consequences' works like, at all. In fact it foreshadows a lot of what Buffy will go through in Season 5, 6 and 7.

It's a stellar moment BECAUSE of their last encounter. The last time they saw each other, they were trying to kill each other. Now, they're actually talking with each other, and being open and vulnerable.

And again the connection- the effort- is all coming from Faith. Nothing coming from Buffy except allowing herself to be comforted. Not a big stretch for her, she's at a low ebb here.
I mean, most of S8 is Buffy desperately trying to connect with someone so this scene is hardly unique.

That's not her default assumption, that's just the natural thing to assume after that phone call.

Season 7, 8 and 9- three lots of bad assumptions is a pattern. Buffy's natural thought process when it comes to Faith.

Why would Buffy suddenly want Faith around? Maybe because Faith fought by her side against Twilight. Maybe because when Faith got Giles' inheritance, she didn't rub it in Buffy's face, but instead tried her best to console Buffy. Maybe because Faith took it upon herself to bring Angel back to sanity after the whole Twilight thing. Maybe because Buffy learned about the Dawn amnesia, which made her realize that her assumption about Faith was wrong. Maybe because Faith brought Giles back to life. Maybe because Faith just saved Buffy's life, and the life of her friends.

Buffy's too self-absorbed to ever think that deeply about what Faith is doing half a world away (which is fair enough in a way since Buffy's life is pretty crazy). Unless it happens right in front of her she's never really sure how to react to something.

And Buffy has never voiced ANY of the reasoning that you have listed here; She called Faith selfish despite all those events happening just as described. Clearly she doesn't care.
Post-Twilight Buffy spent most of the time feeling guilty about Giles and feeling sorry for herself/defensive about her actions. Y'think she really appreciated Faith 'not rubbing her face in it' after Giles' death? I guarantee Buffy wasn't focused on that and will almost certainly never bring it up.
It would be nice if she did but its just not in her nature.

I dunno, the whole scene just feels so forced and fake 'hey, there's Faith! Welcome Faith, wow we've missed you so much! Come and stay for a while!' It's a jarring lurch in tone from what has come before.
It's like a lot of the inter-character relationship building in Buffy S10, just really OFF somehow. I could list the numerous examples.
 

Guy

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It's a sweet scene but its not deep, y'know. It's simply the promise of something more. I can't get worked up about a 'potential' good thing.

It wasn't just potential - that scene showed that Buffy and Faith really care about each other, which was NOT obvious after 'Revelations'. That's not a "potential" good thing, that's a good thing that happened.

The only programming that slayers get is by their Watchers, everything else is instinct that they either embrace or fight against or cope with however they want. But those feelings- unique to them- bind Buffy and Faith closely together.
It's why 'Consequences' works like, at all. In fact it foreshadows a lot of what Buffy will go through in Season 5, 6 and 7.

The "programming" I referred to is the fact that being a slayer made Buffy naughty - you know, "it's a slayer thing". Nothing to do with the watchers.

Anyway, it's interesting that you mentioned 'Consequences', because to me, that episode DOESN'T work. Not the climax, anyway - I thought that Faith was full of crap when she said that Buffy could be dark like her. The first 3 seasons gave me no reason to believe that Buffy could do something like what Faith did to Xander in that episode, for example. I just thought it was very "telling instead of showing". Faith SAID that Buffy has that darkness in her, and Buffy reacted as if Faith was right ("Faith, no, you're sick", which implies that Faith's words are getting to Buffy), and I just didn't understand why Buffy didn't brush off Faith's words. In season 3, Buffy was still a total good guy, so Faith's words felt hollow.

After seeing the later seasons, Faith may seem like she has a point, but that scene in 'Consequences' still falls flat for me. *Shrug*

And again the connection- the effort- is all coming from Faith. Nothing coming from Buffy except allowing herself to be comforted.

Well, of course. Faith is the one who wronged Buffy, much more than Buffy ever wronged Faith. It makes sense that Faith would be the one trying to reach out. The fact that Buffy even ALLOWS Faith to do that is significant. Remember "If you apologize to me I will beat you to death"?

Not a big stretch for her, she's at a low ebb here.
I mean, most of S8 is Buffy desperately trying to connect with someone so this scene is hardly unique.

Still, a step in the right direction.

Season 7, 8 and 9- three lots of bad assumptions is a pattern. Buffy's natural thought process when it comes to Faith.

No, that's an inaccurate way of looking at it, IMO. In late season 7, Buffy jumped to conclusions about Faith. In early season 8, Buffy again jumped to conclusions about Faith. In LATE SEASON 9, a significant amount of time later, Buffy just had a minor, understandable misunderstanding with Faith, in a time of great pressure. Calling Faith selfish after that phone call is NOT on the same level as what happened in seasons 8 & 9. I just saw that moment as a minor thing, that has almost no bearing on their relationship.

Buffy's too self-absorbed to ever think that deeply about what Faith is doing half a world away (which is fair enough in a way since Buffy's life is pretty crazy). Unless it happens right in front of her she's never really sure how to react to something.

That's an unfair assumption ;)

We never see Buffy being like "oh, Faith must have only said that because of the Dawn-amnesia", but we see no reason to believe the other option either. So, I assume that Buffy is smart enough to put 2 and 2 together, and understand why Faith reacted the way she did.

And Buffy has never voiced ANY of the reasoning that you have listed here; She called Faith selfish despite all those events happening just as described. Clearly she doesn't care.

Calling Faith selfish after Faith acted like that is just a reasonable reaction. And Buffy clearly shows that she DOES care about all those things, because she trusted Faith enough to let her take care of Angel after season 8, and trusted her enough to ask for her help in season 9. The Dawn-amnesia was just a minor misunderstanding, and it was clearly overcome by season 10.

Post-Twilight Buffy spent most of the time feeling guilty about Giles and feeling sorry for herself/defensive about her actions. Y'think she really appreciated Faith 'not rubbing her face in it' after Giles' death? I guarantee Buffy wasn't focused on that and will almost certainly never bring it up.
It would be nice if she did but its just not in her nature.

What, you wanted her to say "Faith, I really appreciate how nice you were after Giles' death"? Some things are in the subtext. In Buffy and Faith's case, MOST THINGS are in the subtext! ;)

Faith was being decent toward Buffy in that scene, and I see no reason to believe that Buffy didn't appreciate it.

And I think you're being pretty unfair towards Buffy's "nature".

I dunno, the whole scene just feels so forced and fake 'hey, there's Faith! Welcome Faith, wow we've missed you so much! Come and stay for a while!' It's a jarring lurch in tone from what has come before.

No it's not. The last time they saw each other, Buffy was incredibly understanding despite tough circumstances - she could have contested Giles' will, or she could have verbally attacked Faith for it, but she didn't. She just talked with Faith calmly and maturely. And she cared enough to ask Faith if she was sure that she could take care of Angel. And this was while Buffy was grieving! In season 10 Faith just saved Buffy's life, and gave Giles back to her. It makes perfect sense that Buffy would be more positive toward Faith after that!


It's like a lot of the inter-character relationship building in Buffy S10, just really OFF somehow. I could list the numerous examples.

I disagree, but that's a different topic.
 

thetopher

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It wasn't just potential - that scene showed that Buffy and Faith really care about each other, which was NOT obvious after 'Revelations'.

*shrug* disagree I guess. Faith was certainly trying from the off and the two of them were friendly well before revelations.

Anyway, it's interesting that you mentioned 'Consequences', because to me, that episode DOESN'T work. Not the climax, anyway - I thought that Faith was full of crap when she said that Buffy could be dark like her.

I see the opposite. Not only is it foreshadowing it references things we've already witnessed about Buffy herself. There are plenty of signs that Buffy is more than a little bit like Faith if you look back as early as S1.
Buffy likes to slay, that's why she smiles and quip and mocks the bad guys when she stakes them. Giles even comments about it, that Buffy draws it out too much. 'It should be plunge and move on, plunge and move on' but Buffy likes to draw it out, not like other more 'polished' professional slayers like Kendra.
Spike even commented that Buffy 'liked to dance', that it was part of her style, that she 'got off on it', and all the evidence was right there to see pretty early, just took the bad guys to point it out.

It isn't (just) about the sex, its about the enjoyment. Getting off on the violence. That's what Faith saw and she was right.


Well, of course. Faith is the one who wronged Buffy, much more than Buffy ever wronged Faith. It makes sense that Faith would be the one trying to reach out. The fact that Buffy even ALLOWS Faith to do that is significant.

Again I disagree. Buffy uses a lot of people in S8 because of her own feelings at one time or another. Satsu loves her? Then she'll have sex with her to feel better/less lonely. Dawn and Xander are a romantic thing? What about me and my confidante/sexy fantasies?

So Buffy takes a little comfort from Faith. Doesn't really mean anything from Buffy's pov. Here's a tip; if a scene doesn't change the dynamics of a relationship in any significant way (and this clearly doesn't) then it doesn't really matter (unless it illustrates something about their current relationship- which is actually what the scene was about).

Remember "If you apologize to me I will beat you to death"?

Given how long ago that happened, what Faith has done previously to make amends, and given what others have done to Buffy since then, what should something that was said over 5 years ago even be relevant?

No, that's an inaccurate way of looking at it, IMO. In late season 7, Buffy jumped to conclusions about Faith. In early season 8, Buffy again jumped to conclusions about Faith. In LATE SEASON 9, a significant amount of time later, Buffy just had a minor, understandable misunderstanding with Faith, in a time of great pressure. Calling Faith selfish after that phone call is NOT on the same level as what happened in seasons 8 & 9. I just saw that moment as a minor thing, that has almost no bearing on their relationship.

Season 7- Buffy jumped to a conclusion and then was proven wrong.
Season 8- Buffy jumps to another conclusion and turns out to be wrong. Even wronger in fact because Giles was involved and Faith had proven that she was capable of reforming.
Season 9- Buffy makes a snap judgement and quickly dismisses Faith (and Angel's) not inconsiderable help.

We never see Buffy being like "oh, Faith must have only said that because of the Dawn-amnesia", but we see no reason to believe the other option either.

No, we see Buffy call Faith selfish and can extrapolate her thought processes from that.
It's really not that hard; either Buffy realizes that Faith has (slowly) changed over the years and that would change HER perception of Faith (and crucially her assumptions) or she doesn't realize that and thinks Faith is as selfish as she's always been.

What, you wanted her to say "Faith, I really appreciate how nice you were after Giles' death"?

No, no. I just want to see a consistent, logical and gradual improvement in relationship due to actions on both sides.
No overwrought declarations of emotion thanks. This isn't Spuffy.

Calling Faith selfish after Faith acted like that is just a reasonable reaction.

No it isn't. Not if we take all of RECENT' history into account- as you yourself have said.

Here's an example of how the phone conversation might've gone:

BUFFY: Hello? Hello is anyone there?

FAITH: B? Uh, hey. What's up?

BUFFY: I've got trouble of the serious kind and need all the help I can get.

FAITH: (sighs) Well, your timing's kinda sucky, we're really swamped over here. What's the prob?

BUFFY: It's Dawn, she's really sick. I think she might die unless we do something fast.

FAITH: (puzzled) Okay. Sounds bad. Who's this Dawn chick? (impatient) Look unless its really urgent I gotta-

BUFFY: Just forget it. (hangs up)

So Buffy can think one of three things at the end here:
1) (gasp) Oh my god! People are forgetting Dawn because Dawn is magic and I destroyed the seed so the spells are unraveling. Why didn't I consider this fairly obvious course of events sometime sooner!
2) Wow, that was weird. Faith didn't even know who I was talking about. What's up with that? Faith helped out a whole bunch of times and now she just bails.
3) Huh. Still selfish.

Now we KNOW what Buffy thought because she told everyone else her opinion. And so we can see that none of Faith's good past actions have had any real bearing on Buffy's opinion of her.

And that's fine, I guess. The writers have a made a choice.
It's the same choice they made with Angel and Spike- constant snarking and one-uping instead of anything actually interesting and progressing towards something else. Sort-of..lazy writing.

As for Buffy calling them in the first place- Dawn is her sister so Buffy figures she needs all the help she can get. It wasn't about trust so-much as it was about usefulness, hence why Buffy gave up so quickly when Faith didn't know what she was talking about. Ignorance is clearly not of any use, right?

And I think you're being pretty unfair towards Buffy's "nature".

Really? lol Like Buffy being somewhat self- absorbed is some sort of revelation? It's one of her main character faults.
Not that I mind character faults exactly, they're what makes a person interesting and fallible. But its never unfair to point them out.

The last time they saw each other, Buffy was incredibly understanding despite tough circumstances - she could have contested Giles' will, or she could have verbally attacked Faith for it, but she didn't. She just talked with Faith calmly and maturely.

Yeah, Buffy just helped cause an apocalypse that got Giles killed, I think she'd be a pretty crappy person to contest anything of Giles or give any Faith smack for it. I'm not gonna give Buffy credit for NOT being an awful person.

She wanted Faith to take care of Angel simply because she couldn't stand being around him (and everyone else wanted him dead) because of how SHE felt. It wasn't about Faith, it was about her situation.

It makes perfect sense that Buffy would be more positive toward Faith after that!

And in S7 Faith helped out with an apocalypse after risking her life to save Angel (multiple times). But the good feelings and positivism didn't last did they?
Like I said, if something changes then that will be interesting, but from past interactions there can be no guarantees.
 

Guy

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*shrug* disagree I guess. Faith was certainly trying from the off and the two of them were friendly well before revelations.

Yeah, but it's a different level. Before that, Faith was like "You seem cool, I wanna get to know you" and Buffy was like "Sure, whatever". But in that scene in Buffy's house in 'Amends', Faith was like:

26e08045bdb7174f0c91224ddb13178f.jpg


But, you know, she wasn't LITERALLY asking it, because it's Faith and she has insecurities coming out of her ears.

Look, I just have a soft spot for people showing vulnerability with other people, okay? It always gives me the feels.



I see the opposite. Not only is it foreshadowing it references things we've already witnessed about Buffy herself. There are plenty of signs that Buffy is more than a little bit like Faith if you look back as early as S1.
Buffy likes to slay, that's why she smiles and quip and mocks the bad guys when she stakes them. Giles even comments about it, that Buffy draws it out too much. 'It should be plunge and move on, plunge and move on' but Buffy likes to draw it out, not like other more 'polished' professional slayers like Kendra.
Spike even commented that Buffy 'liked to dance', that it was part of her style, that she 'got off on it', and all the evidence was right there to see pretty early, just took the bad guys to point it out.

It isn't (just) about the sex, its about the enjoyment. Getting off on the violence. That's what Faith saw and she was right.

But... If it's just about enjoying the slaying, then what is Buffy getting all twisted about? Buffy always admitted that she enjoyed beating up vampires. Since 'What's my Line', at least. And there's nothing wrong with that - if Buffy is SUPPOSED to kill vampires, then what's wrong with enjoying it a little? So, if that's Faith's point, then that scene doesn't make sense - Buffy has no reason to say "No, Faith, you're sick".

Buffy only has a reason to be defensive if Faith is implying that Buffy doesn't care about the deaths of innocents. And I call BS on that, because Buffy has shown that she cares about it since goddamn season 1.

Again I disagree. Buffy uses a lot of people in S8 because of her own feelings at one time or another. Satsu loves her? Then she'll have sex with her to feel better/less lonely. Dawn and Xander are a romantic thing? What about me and my confidante/sexy fantasies?

So Buffy takes a little comfort from Faith. Doesn't really mean anything from Buffy's pov. Here's a tip; if a scene doesn't change the dynamics of a relationship in any significant way (and this clearly doesn't) then it doesn't really matter (unless it illustrates something about their current relationship- which is actually what the scene was about).

And what do Xander and Satsu have in common? Buffy likes them both a lot. A lot more than she liked Faith before season 8. So the fact that Buffy allowed Faith to console her like that is an improvement in their relationship.

Again - showing vulnerability is a big thing. It was a big thing for Faith in season 3, and it was a big thing for Buffy in season 8.

Given how long ago that happened, what Faith has done previously to make amends, and given what others have done to Buffy since then, what should something that was said over 5 years ago even be relevant?

Because Buffy and Faith barely interacted in those 5 years, so in terms of their relationship, very little has changed. Relatively speaking.

Season 7- Buffy jumped to a conclusion and then was proven wrong.
Season 8- Buffy jumps to another conclusion and turns out to be wrong. Even wronger in fact because Giles was involved and Faith had proven that she was capable of reforming.
Season 9- Buffy makes a snap judgement and quickly dismisses Faith (and Angel's) not inconsiderable help.

The first two, yeah. But the season 9 incident just doesn't mean anything, IMO.

No, we see Buffy call Faith selfish and can extrapolate her thought processes from that.
It's really not that hard; either Buffy realizes that Faith has (slowly) changed over the years and that would change HER perception of Faith (and crucially her assumptions) or she doesn't realize that and thinks Faith is as selfish as she's always been.

OR, it was just another case of supernaturally-induced-misunderstanding. Like when the Buffybot boinked Spike, and the scoobies were like "Buffy's insane". I just don't see it as saying anything about their relationship.

Also, that incident was in the second half of season 9, and screw the second half of season 9.

No, no. I just want to see a consistent, logical and gradual improvement in relationship due to actions on both sides.
No overwrought declarations of emotion thanks.

And if you don't read too much into that one season 9 incident, then you HAVE a gradual improvement in their relationship. In the first half of season 8 Buffy and Faith fight, in the second half of season 8 they get along well, and in season 10 Buffy tells Faith that she's welcome whenever she wants to slum it. Seems like an arc to me. An arc with long breaks, because Buffy and Faith don't meet each other often, but still an arc.

This isn't Spuffy.

But wouldn't that be AWESOME, though?:)

I wouldn't mind a "Buffy and Faith bring down a house" love scene.:D



Really? lol Like Buffy being somewhat self- absorbed is some sort of revelation? It's one of her main character faults.
Not that I mind character faults exactly, they're what makes a person interesting and fallible. But its never unfair to point them out.

Buffy can be a bit self-centered sometimes, but she's hardly miss selfish. It's really not one of her main character flaws. When Giles missed a meeting with her in 2x08, Buffy immediately understood that something was wrong with him. When Spike was putting up an act in 'Beneath You', Buffy immediately knew that something was wrong with him. When Faith acted like she didn't care about Finch in 'Consequences', Buffy understood that Faith was in denial. Buffy isn't exactly an empath demon, but she's not an Anya either. She knows how to read people, about as well as any average person.

Yeah, Buffy just helped cause an apocalypse that got Giles killed, I think she'd be a pretty crappy person to contest anything of Giles or give any Faith smack for it. I'm not gonna give Buffy credit for NOT being an awful person.

That's the thing about grieving people - they can be very mean during the grieving period. The fact that Buffy DIDN'T do those things to Faith is a notable thing.

And in S7 Faith helped out with an apocalypse after risking her life to save Angel (multiple times). But the good feelings and positivism didn't last did they?

Change takes time. Faith helping with the First wasn't enough to fix the relationship, on its own. But the things that happened after that WERE enough, by season 10.
 
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thetopher

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But... If it's just about enjoying the slaying, then what is Buffy getting all twisted about? Buffy always admitted that she enjoyed beating up vampires.

This is from Bad Girls, the episode before:

FAITH: You actually gonna take orders from him?

Buffy shrugs.

BUFFY: That's the job. What else can we do?

FAITH: Whatever we want! We're slayers, girlfriend. The Chosen Two. Why should we let him take all the fun out of it?

BUFFY: That'd be tragic, taking the fun out of slaying and stabbing and beheading…

FAITH: Oh, like you don't dig it.

BUFFY: I don't.

FAITH: Liar. I've seen you. Tell me staking a vamp doesn't get you a little bit juiced. Say it.


Buffy doesn't say anything.

So that right there shows that Buffy, when she wants, denies that she likes killing evil things. 'It isn't fun, I don't like it'.
Now okay, this is Buffy's martyr complex a little bit but still, she is denying it to Faith's face.

Faith isn't calling her psychotic on the docks, she's just saying that she sees the part of Buffy that Buffy 'represses' or denies or whatever. Buffy wants to 'cut loose' like Faith does but doesn't want to because 'it's wrong'
Buffy is a balance. Kendra was too far one way- too controlled and disciplined (and that's partly why she dies) and Faith is too far the other way- too wild and irresponsible (and yeah, psychotic, her empathy talents aren't that well developed at that point).

And what do Xander and Satsu have in common? Buffy likes them both a lot. A lot more than she liked Faith before season 8.

Well, she knows that Satsu loves her and that's something but do we really know that Buffy likes Satsu a lot. That whole thing struck me as desperately trying to see if 'this will work' and Buffy can stop feeling so alone.

Because Buffy and Faith barely interacted in those 5 years, so in terms of their relationship, very little has changed.

And they barely interacted between Season 7 and 8 and somehow things got much worse, so much so that Buffy attacked Faith, said some fairly hurtful things and in turn Faith tried to drown her.

Also, that incident was in the second half of season 9, and screw the second half of season 9.

Actually the second half is better than the first, at least in terms of drama and plot. Hey look, Buffy is actually doing something! How novel.

And if you don't read too much into that one season 9 incident, then you HAVE a gradual improvement in their relationship. In the first half of season 8 Buffy and Faith fight, in the second half of season 8 they get along well,

Or alternatively they fight after a long time apart, then they get alone okay for a little while, then they split for most of a year and then Buffy offhandedly dismisses Faith as selfish.
I mean, you can ignore things that actually happen so you can have a character arc, I just don't see- or rather cannot predict- where the relationship will go next. And I actually find it hard to care. And I really want to care.

season 10 Buffy tells Faith that she's welcome whenever she wants to slum it.

And I think that happens to have more with the fact that Giles is alive and Buffy is on a high, its not really about any affection for Faith, because where did that come from?
I think its perspective. We can find the things that we want meaningful, they're just different things.

Buffy can be a bit self-centered sometimes, but she's hardly miss selfish. It's really not one of her main character flaws.

I never said that Buffy is selfish- she isn't, she's a friggin' hero that saves people.
Being self-absorbed is different. It's about how you perceive others lives outside of your life. Like when Buffy was dating Riley and was so caught up in it that she blew off her friends to be with him (A New Man/The I In Team), or she was way into the slaying and took Riley (a little bit) for granted or any number of times where she was caught up in her life and so really didn't consider what other people were up to and how they might've changed. People like Cordelia or Faith for instance.
I mean I get it Buffy is the slayer, its stressful and that can lead to navel-gazing. Understandable but it does colour how she treats her friends never mind people who are not within that tight circle.
Whoops. I almost typed Buffy's tight circle.
I'm gonna go now.
 

wickedwillow

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Something should be done in the comics about Buffy and Faith being the last two "natural" Slayers in the line. All of the current crop are only in existence due to Willow's spell. A story line could be built around that one simple fact. Something like, this many Slayers existing at one time causes some sort of metaphysical overload in the world, so most of the newbies have to be shipped off to Mars or something (Kennedy could be the leader of the Mars team) Parallel realities and alternate universes have been done to death in this sort of thing, but someone with Joss' creative ability should be able to get rid of a whole bunch of the little buggers in a reasonable manner.

Does that mean Kennedy would stay in Mars and never be seen again?
 
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