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Fred...

gite63

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I very much liked the Illyria/Fred story in Angel: After the Fall, but the Fred/Illyria thing in Angel & Faith S10 has always felt strange to me...

Fred is back – and it seems as she was a cardboard copy of the real one, tossed into Angel's way for him to have something more to do.

Right before dying, she and Wesley had started a beautiful love story together, one that ended tragically - and it's like she has totally forgotten about that, about him. Lorne, Connor, Spike, Gunn haven't ever existed in her life, all her time with the Fang Gang are now a non-event, the only person she seems to have known and cared is Angel – she doesn't even have (loving) parents anymore! Her previous story was deleted.

Plus, I'm not enjoying much the "Hulk" approach: Fred gets mad or frightened and boom – here comes Illyria. The dynamic Illyria/Fred in After the Fall was so much better!
 
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Can't really comment seeing as I haven't read s10, but that sounds bad :(

thetopher

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Right now I think its too soon to judge the plotline of Fred/Illyria returning, she's barely been in two story arcs and that's not a lot of of 'in-verse' time for her to react to stuff. She seems to remember all of what happened when she was Illria (which is about 2 and half years worth of time) so maybe she's playing catch-up with her memories/emotions. She's been 'alive' for what? A few weeks at best.

But when she's Fred she sounds like Fred, which is what matters to me. In general I'm invested in her story arc, because what happened to her over on Angel was tragically unfair.
Also a lot of Illyria's 'retconning' from Angel: AtF happened over in Buffy S9- where she was pretty terrible/poorly written and a lot of the (quite good) IDW characterization was just deleted/undone- her growing humanity etc.- so we should really blame that season for the loss of the old Fred/Illyria dynamic.

Anyway presumably Joss has had a plan for her all along. and this is the culmination of it (certainly more interesting than the 'lil Giles' plot arc which...doesn't exist outside one or two issues).
It 's got nothing to do with 'giving something for Angel to do'- he's already got a mission, the mission is magic Town. Faith is the one looking for some focus in her life.
I am glad that this could open the door to some more Gunn and Connor appearances though- it would be nice to see them again.
 

gite63

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Right now I think its too soon to judge the plotline of Fred/Illyria returning, she's barely been in two story arcs and that's not a lot of of 'in-verse' time for her to react to stuff.
I hope it gets better...

She seems to remember all of what happened when she was Illria (which is about 2 and half years worth of time) so maybe she's playing catch-up with her memories/emotions. She's been 'alive' for what? A few weeks at best.
But... I was rereading A&F, and...

FRED: Tiny things... they just sneak up on me and... remind me of Wes. And I miss him, of course, but I also think of how much more of the world he saw then me.

Wes makes her remember how much more he saw of the world? Are you kidding??? If they needed to fit Wes in some dialogue, that wasn't the right place, for sure! And when Angel gets Spike's call in Ireland? She is right in front of him, she knows Angel is talking to Spike... and she stays mute, sitting there like a statue - the drawing shows exactly that, no emotion, no surprise, nothing. I think a few emotional lines for Wes and a few lines for Spike were due. Connor, Gunn and Lorne? Forget. She has never met them.

Anyway presumably Joss has had a plan for her all along. and this is the culmination of it
Yeah, but they should have written her into Angel & Faith without erasing all of her past connections. They don't want bring back Gunn, Connor, Wes and Lorne (even the dead could return, after all) for some reason, and Spike is "in the other title" (crossovers are big events that cannot be wasted in one line or two). But that makes the story poorer.

On a different note, I'm kind of enjoying Will Conrad's and Cliff Richard's drawings (exept for the Fred-statue one)...

I am glad that this could open the door to some more Gunn and Connor appearances though- it would be nice to see them again.
Yeah, I would like, too.
 
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thetopher

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Wes makes her remember how much more he saw of the world? Are you kidding???
It's...actually a fair point. 1) The thing about Fresley is that Wes loved Fred long before she loved him. (Mid S3+) She only became aware of her deep, romantic feelings for him in S5, months before her own death. It was tragic because it was cut down before it really had a chance to start.

2) Fred now has all the memories of an Old One. Y'know, ancient alien being that has cross infilnnite dimensions (and seen the fabled Universe of Perpetual Shrimp!) and also remembers demonic prehistory?
Well now Fred knows a lot of that stuff to (remember that she knew who massacred Koh's tribe because Illyria did). How can all those experiences not overwhelm a girl who's (somewhat) mentally fragile, and who went from small town Texas to LA and then straight to to a cave in Pylea?
Fred has been cut off from things for a while, she's still adjusting- and she's never been anywhere foriegn before. London and Ireland were probably shiny and new to her.

nd when Angel gets Spike's call in Ireland? She is right in front of him, she knows Angel is talking to Spike... and she stays mute, sitting there like a statue - the drawing shows exactly that, no emotion, no surprise, nothing. I think a few emotional lines for Wes and a few lines for Spike were due. Connor, Gunn and Lorne? Forget. She has never met them.
I rarely expect character consistancy from the comics these days. Remember how, in S9, Spike 'suddenly' remembered that he used to care for Dawn waaaay back in S5/early Season 6 and so rushed to her side? Contrived.
And then there's Xander apologising to Angel 'cause he hit the guy after all Angel had done and almost ended the world (and Xander's friends)- that was just bizarre. So Fred didn't have the right 'facial expression' when Angel was talking to Spike. Fred doesn't even know what her existance means at the moment. She doesn't know how it came about or if its even permenant. I think until she learns more about her 'condition' and gets more stable then it makes sense that she doesn't want to tell Gunn or Spike about her new 'I'm alive now!' status. She's afraid of the future most likely.

Yeah, but they should have written her into Angel & Faith without erasing all of her past connections.
I just think its been a very busy season so far. Fred's still adjusting to her condition. She's basically in a Ben/Glory situation, its got to be unnerving for her.
 

gite63

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1) The thing about Fresley is that Wes loved Fred long before she loved him. (Mid S3+) She only became aware of her deep, romantic feelings for him in S5, months before her own death. It was tragic because it was cut down before it really had a chance to start.

2) Fred now has all the memories of an Old One. Y'know, ancient alien being that has cross infilnnite dimensions (and seen the fabled Universe of Perpetual Shrimp!) and also remembers demonic prehistory?
Well now Fred knows a lot of that stuff to (remember that she knew who massacred Koh's tribe because Illyria did). How can all those experiences not overwhelm a girl who's (somewhat) mentally fragile, and who went from small town Texas to LA and then straight to to a cave in Pylea?
OK, I may agree with all that - but if Christos Gage had been responsible for written just the part where Fred mentioned Wes (who she loved and in whose arms she died), we would have seen more... heart to it. It would take only one page – one panel! - for him to make her more... Fred and less Fredless, I'm sure. It's not that I want to see Fred dwell on the past, when it doesn't fit, I would like to see more feeling added to the story – and some consideration about what came before. For instance, Fred could have said to Angel, after he hang up, that she didn't want him to tell Spike – or anybody else - that she was alive, not yet.

I rarely expect character consistancy from the comics these days. Remember how, in S9, Spike 'suddenly' remembered that he used to care for Dawn waaaay back in S5/early Season 6 and so rushed to her side? Contrived.
Not so much... When Spike came back to Sunnydale, Dawn said that she would set him on fire - not a very warm reception, although understandable... Next, he was too busy – with his own issues first, then with the First Evil, then with the big fight that soon would happen - and ultimately they were living in the same house: Spike knew how and where Dawn was, no reason for him to be worried about her; besides, the first step should have come from her, due to the circumstances. In S9, he learns that she is ill - and rushes to see her.
 

thetopher

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OK, I may agree with all that - but if Christos Gage had been responsible for written just the part where Fred mentioned Wes (who she loved and in whose arms she died), we would have seen more... heart to it.
Well I do want to hear more about Fred's thoughts/memories of Wesley. I think she loved him ntensely for that time but I'm also sure that she's been through a lot since and the writers haven't got enough time to catch all of it. If Fred is back for good, we'll get much more I'm sure.

Not so much... When Spike came back to Sunnydale, Dawn said that she would set him on fire - not a very warm reception, although understandable... Next, he was too busy – with his own issues first, then with the First Evil, then with the big fight that soon would happen
Spike intereacted with Buffy lots in S7, and with Xander/Anya a bit as well. Yet no Dawn. When they all found out that he had a soul that, of course, would've changed things. But Spike doesn't initiate anything between him and Dawn, in fact they barely interact.
And it started before then- like through most of S6 he didn't give a crap about Dawn when he started sleeping with her sister...
It's sad but that's the way it was. :(

Spike knew how and where Dawn was, no reason for him to be worried about her;
Uh, there's in the middle of an apocalyse? Plenty to worry, also he's occasionally killing people because of mind control by ultimate evil.
He even seems pretty blaze when he hurt her when he was triggered in 'LMPTM', didn't get the impression of real affection.
He might've been playing it cool but still, a bit of anxiety would've shown real concern for her.

besides, the first step should have come from her, due to the circumstances. In S9, he learns that she is ill - and rushes to see her.
That really doesn't make much sense. You're saying that she should've approached him first if they're to have a relationship or anything...and then he goes to her anyway because she's ill?
If you care about somebody then that's that- there's some indication of those emotions in all/or even more...I've would've taken some- good times and bad, and we see nothing from him (the writers could've shown him trying but with Dawn being still a bit cool, or maybe warming towards him, but they chose not to).

This was all though most of S9 as well. No interaction then rushing to her side seemed utterly contrived for story purposes- certainly if you're questioning Fred's actions so far this season, it doesn't really compare with this...
 

gite63

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That really doesn't make much sense. You're saying that she should've approached him first if they're to have a relationship or anything...and then he goes to her anyway because she's ill?
Yeah, because she was ill... when he knew she was OK, no need to worry about her - on panel, at least. Even when you cut connections with someone, if you hear that this person is ill or in trouble, it's natural that you worry about him/her. In Spike's case, it's not coming from nowhere, because we know he used to care about Dawn - a plot that was put aside because it didn't advance the story anymore (S6-S7).

(the writers could've shown him trying but with Dawn being still a bit cool, or maybe warming towards him, but they chose not to).
That's another thing - for some reason, Souled Spike/Dawn relationship wasn't developed in S7, the same thing that happens now, they don't want to deal with Wes, Connor, Gunn and Lorne, and they don't want a crossover Fred/Spike (that's understable, because they are in different titles after all).

If Fred is back for good, we'll get much more I'm sure.
I hope she is back, yes - when she died, I didn't care about Illyria. Now I do like Illyria... but I don't want her to be Fred's Hulk. I'll miss Illyria.

Actually, that would be a warm reception.
No, not warm. Very hot. Literally, I must say, because I don't want to be misinterpreted.
 
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thetopher

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In Spike's case, it's not coming from nowhere, because we know he used to care about Dawn - a plot that was put aside because it didn't advance the story anymore (S6-S7).
And Season 8 and most of Season 9. Like I said, it felt contrived because it was an aborted relationship that the writers never built back up in any believable way. They could've done so, with a little effort, but they chose not to.

That's another thing - for some reason, Souled Spike/Dawn relationship wasn't developed in S7
T o me it shows that the writers were trying to concentrate almost exclusively on Spuffy to the detriment of anything else Spike-related, and there are consequences to that in terms of storytelling. As a writer you have to develop the relationships in a beleivable way or it just turns into nonsense soap opera garbage.

To get back on topic that's why the Fred/Wesley stuff doesn't bother me that much, because in the comic there are worse offenders of 'wtf?'.
 
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