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Question Gunn and his lawyer brain

Would you have made the same choice that Gunn made to keep his enhanced brain?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 40.0%
  • No

    Votes: 7 46.7%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 2 13.3%

  • Total voters
    15

r2dh2

Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain
Joined
Apr 12, 2019
Messages
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all around
If you had been in Gunn's position having to decide whether to make your (lawyer) brain enhancement permanent or no in exchange for signing a document, would you have done it? Yes? No? Maybe? Please explain why.
 

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
9,011
Location
UK
Gunn enjoyed his powers and the privileges that came with them. He's perhaps been seduced by them, but he could also do more good with his knowledge then he could achieve as a street fighter. I think it's understandable that he would not want to return to being just the muscle, which would have made him pretty redundant in a law firm.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,707
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
Super-intelligence/knowledge sounds cool, but we have to consider the source. W&H is a corrupting influence so its a bad idea to let them mess with your head.
Take over their base of operations? Sure, I get that because you're changing it, Gunn let them change him, and he couldn't guarantee by how much.

In hindsight we know that W&H didn't do anything really untoward with the opportunity, they just let Gunn have a taste of power and then made him feel dependent on it with 'regular treatments'.
But it was Gunn's choice to make, and he certainly got a confidence boost and renewed sense of purpose out of it.
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
7,520
Location
Canada
Sineya
All of the people who got in the limo at the end of Season 4 to go to Wolfram & Hart had been seduced by the resources and abilities that W&H were giving them. There were no "big picture" thinkers in Angel Investigations and there should have been one individual who refused to sell out, but that didn't happen. If I had the mindset to get the limo, I would have accepted any benefit they gave me because that would have been why I went there.
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
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Sineya
One person's seduced is another's realization that funding makes things easier

Did they seriously expect that there would be no strings attached? That they had a free hand? That you could correct the system from within? That they could continue their mission of helping people but with more than the shoestring budget they were used to? They wanted access to power. They were seduced by the offer of access to power. No human survived joining Wolfram & Hart for more than one season.

Angel got tapped to run a branch office of a worldwide, and as we saw from the existence of Wolf, Ram and Hart books in Pylea, an interdimensional corporation. And he thought they would be able to use their power for good? He is singularly lacking in "big picture" thinking.
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
24,289
Black Thorn
Did they seriously expect that there would be no strings attached?
Everything comes with strings attached. That's why you weigh the pros vs cons. As long as the strings aren't too thick, then yeah, it would certainly be worth it. In the end, they did more good by accepting the offer than they would have had they declined it.
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
7,520
Location
Canada
Sineya
Everything comes with strings attached. That's why you weigh the pros vs cons. As long as the strings aren't too thick, then yeah, it would certainly be worth it. In the end, they did more good by accepting the offer than they would have had they declined it.

You think starting a demon war that affected all of Los Angeles was worth it? How much good did they actually do? They may have gotten rid of the Circle of the Black Thorn but that was at the cost of the murder of Drogyn. This is like some modern street gangs where you can only gain membership by killing someone. They degraded themselves more than they helped anyone else. I suppose they spared some children by their antics in "The Puppet Show", but the good they did is outweighed by the bad they did plus the corruption of their own judgement.
 
Spanky
Spanky
Eh, I see it differently. Thinking more long term, but I am getting hounded so can't go into it.
Joined
Oct 23, 2018
Messages
790
Age
36
Location
England
I put maybe because the truth is I don't know what I would do in Gunn's position - I've never been in it. Without having a taste of a super enhanced brain I don;t know if I could walk away from it.
Having watched Gunn do it I would be less likely to - because I would now be more suspicious of the document I had to sign, but without his example ... I might sign it without thinking twice. I don't have much common sense of my own, but I am good at learning from other people's mistakes - and touch wood that has steered me clear of any major disasters to date.

I understand why Gunn does it though - the team had undermined his confidence in his intelligence for years (without meaning to, but he was very much 'the muscle') and now he was book smart and loving it. This was his purpose at Wolfram and Hart, without it he had nothing to offer the team there - they didn't need muscle when they had SWAT teams. It made him feel special, it made him intellectually equal to Wes and Fred and as he said - for the first time ever he looked forward to going to work.
I think maybe he had forgotten just how smart he actually was without the upgrade, he internalised 'the muscle' role and the longer he had his lawyer powers the more he saw the way he had been before as 'lesser'. There is a note of definite panic in his voice when he says he can't go back to that. He's remembering himself as stupider than he was.
Signing a piece of paper seems such a little price to stay special.
And yet - in being given this power he has not only been seduced by the senior partners, but been made dependent on them. And when they remove his upgrade he has a choice - to walk away or stay dependent. He willingly makes himself their creature and walks into a form of (very well paid and coming with designer suits) indentured servitude.
It's not just a case of him being seduced by power, he's like an addict needing the next fix. And when he gets that fix, The Senior Partners own him forever.
 

Dogs of Winter

Potential
Joined
Jul 10, 2020
Messages
232
Age
48
I think I may have done it, but I can definitely understand why Gunn did

He was already insecure before S5 about just being the muscle and its not even like he was Muscle No1, he was Muscle No 2 behind Angel. After the move to W+H he would have probably felt like he had even less to give without the upgrade, but being the super smart lawyer guy gave him a new purpose.

Also it is one thing to wish for something you have never had, but is much harder to have something and then lose it (which is why I even have a tiny bit of sympathy for Riley when he loses his soldier strength).

So I can understand why Gunn rationalises his decision. When they decided to join W+H they knew they would be faced with situations they didn't agree with, but told themselves they could do more good than harm working on the inside, and for me signing the document is just an extension of this. Whether they actually did more good than harm is open to debate but the history of literature tells you a lot of people only learn from their own mistakes and not from logic, common sense or the experience of others
 
M

M

Guest
I said no, largely because I'm suspicious of anything that looks powerful, or anything in writing. I'm terrible about deleting accounts I've participated in, just for this reason. Being on BB has been a huge leap of faith for me, but there is no way I'd sign up for the W&H deal.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
3,770
Age
38
First, I wanna say I understand why Gunn did it. Though he didn't want to lose what he had, he was also thinking in grander terms, like an officer who wages a war rather than a grunt who fights it, and I can see him doing the "casualties are inevitable, such a tragic but necessary sacrifice will be for the greater good." (Of course it didn't occur to him that it was Fred who was the sacrifice, as he didn't realize it was a TV show.)

That said, I have long been incompatible with the corporate environment, the only time I watched myself was because I thought I'd get my friend fired if I didn't, and that was for only a couple of hours.

And I know everything has a price. As a man of the streets, and surely exposed to enough occult lore, Gunn had to know that as well, and understand what Wolfram & Hart was trying to do. In fact, he'd have gotten a lesson for it over his old tricked out truck that he apparently sold his soul for.


Life experience has taught me to be wary of the kindness of strangers...especially those who are evil (at best, they're making investments). It's not always bad, but that's small stakes, like trading some cigarettes and pot with a homeless guy who claimed one dumpster as "his" while also having arranged for a huge pizza pick up order that was never picked up so at least some pizzas were thrown in the dumpster still warm and in the box that we then got out and shared with the adult homeless guy (even then he'd have demanded much more or claimed almost all the pizzas if there hadn't been enough of us that we COULD have taken them by force, though that would have its own problems). I'm not even including those who say you owe sex for some paltry kindness, though I know boys get hit with that as well.

I'm sure Gunn has faced the same, understands the dangers at even the street level, and understood that Wolfram and Hart was a whole new level of that.

This is to the point that it affected a dream of mine. Don't feel like sharing it all so the important part is that me and my dad, in the dream, come to a barrel of wishing rings, one per customer (3 wishes per ring). My dad wants it, but I pulled him away, and resisted the temptation myself, because nothing is free, and what powers that could grant wishes would want from us in exchange was a deeply disturbing thought (one that I think I'd find terrifying in real life).

For that reason I'd say no. But then I'd have never gotten in the limo, even if the rest did. (That said, I again say I sympathize with Gunn.)
 
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