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Hot Topic: Did Darla redeem herself before she died?

Spanky

I'm came here to chew bubblegum and go off topic.
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Black Thorn
If you are looking at it with knowledge of the events to transpire then, depending on your take:

No, because she allowed that which would propagate (for all intensive purposes) the anti-christ to come into existence. So, no, that was no redemption.
Yes, because she allowed that which propagate world peace. So, yes, that would be her redemption.

And if you look at it simply from the story at the time, I think she 'redeemed' herself before he was born, when she wanted to take care of it and protect it. So her self-sacrifice was the final act of her redemption but not the sole reason for.
 

VisionBoy

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I'd say no.
Ats always stressed that redemption is an ongoing thing, not one act. As good an act and as great a scene as that might have been; it doesn't totally redeem her in my eyes, but she made a start. Sadly she never got to carry on that direction in life/unlife, but then maybe that's why the Powers felt generous and sent her to her son in season 4.
 

Spanky

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maybe that's why the Powers felt generous and sent her to her son in season 4.
I still don't think it was. I mean.. I think it was something sent to look like her, with her memories etc. It wasnt 'literally' her but, if you will, a clone of her. Much like I don't think it was actually Cordy that came back in "You're Welcome"

In my opinion, the Powers That Be, much like the First, could take on the appearance of those who've previously passed. As much as The First was not the people it represented, neither were The Powers That Be Cordy or Darla. Cordy checked out once she gave birth and she never came back again.

But... that's just my opinion and off topic.
 

VisionBoy

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That could be a possibility with Darla actually. I don't think so with Cordelia (if only because they still needed to kiss to transfer the vision), but I think Jasmine did actually suggest to Conner that Darla was just an illusion. I mean sure, she didn't want him listening to her, but I guess that doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about that bit.
 

Spanky

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if only because they still needed to kiss to transfer the vision
I doubt that. If they wanted they could have just given the vision to Angel, but they needed to make sure he was accepting and willing to believe it and find the motivation behind it to sacrifice himself and his team. They used Cordy's image as the Apple Juice that makes it easier for the kids to drink their medicine.
 

AndrewCrossett

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Canonically... yes, because we saw her spirit again later; she didn't appear to be a tormented damned soul and she was working for the cause of good (trying to stop Connor from committing murder and crossing the line into evil). So, she probably didn't go to Hell.

Philosophically... you could say there was no point to "redemption" at all. Her soul already moved on to the afterlife when the Master killed her back in the 1600's, and wasn't responsible for what vampire Darla did after that. When she dusted herself, she simply ceased to exist. You could argue that human Darla damned herself by voluntarily choosing to become a vampire, but I don't think the specifics were ever fully explained to her... she just thought she was getting eternal life. She said she thought she was already going to Hell because of the things she did in life, but apparently she was wrong. Being a prostitute is not enough to get you sent down there apparently, although certainly everyone thought so back then.

Morally... yes, it was a redeeming act of selflessness. Some might point out that it was Connor's soul, and not her own, that gave her the capacity to sacrifice herself for another. But that argument really doesn't hold up... why should it matter whether one's morality comes from the soul one was born with, or from a borrowed one?
 

thetopher

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Darla was willing to die from 'The Trial' onward- to accept her own death without fear. I never thought there was any need for 'atonement' after that exactly- Darla'a soul was gone and would only return to try and persuade Connor from damning himself.

Darla the demon- well I guess in a way. She committed a selfless act to preserve the one good thing she and Angel ever did together- then she was gone. No easy resurrection afterwards, she's just dust.
 

Sternbeeere

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That could be a possibility with Darla actually. I don't think so with Cordelia (if only because they still needed to kiss to transfer the vision), but I think Jasmine did actually suggest to Conner that Darla was just an illusion. I mean sure, she didn't want him listening to her, but I guess that doesn't necessarily mean she was lying about that bit.
Jasmine was a lier per se, she deceived people all the time. She also told that Angel and the others made that illusion, which was not true. So it is more likely she lied to Conner and it was real Darlas Ghost sent to Connor by the Powers that Be. I assume that from how she behaved, she was redeemed for her self-less act to protect her child.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Yes and no. Her sacrifice was certainly played as a redeeming act (particularly in contrast to flashbacks when she is abandoning Angelus to death and casting him out of the group), so in the context of Darla's story arc, that was her moment of redemption. However, in the grand scheme of things , sacrificing herself for HER child isn't really making up for the things she's done to OTHER people. Had it been someone else's child then the case could be argued that it was a selfless act, however because it is her child, Darla still has a self-interest in it.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

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I think Angel says it best when he says that, "She never had a chance." A chance at happiness, a chance to be good, a chance to chose her own identity.

Darla prostitutes herself for economic independence, she is sired as a vampire and made to play the role as femme fatale, she is the damsel in distress in "The Trial," she is the monstrous mother when she becomes pregnant and she dies by killing herself for her unborn child. Darla's story is terribly cruel. The morality of the Buffyverse often leaves a sour taste in my mouth, because Darla (and the other characters) is/are supposed to rise above her/their circumstances, but when Darla is finally given agency, all she can use it for is to sacrifice herself or allow her syphilis to eat up her heart.

I pose a counter question: Will the world redeem itself to Darla?
 

Ethan Reigns

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No, Darla did not redeem herself. Her sacrifice for her unborn child was prompted by the soul of the child and is no more "redemption" than the soul that was forced onto Angel by the gypsies. Darla was a demon who animated the body of someone who died 400 years ago. Her soul was long gone and it would have to answer for what it did in early America but not for what happened since. The demon in her that makes her a vampire has no redemption possible and will return to hell upon its death. The only redemption available is karma, the cycle of birth and rebirth of the human soul.

She would have been suffering from the form of syphilis that existed at the time she was first alive and this could be cured by penicillin because it was not the antibiotic-resistant strain that exists today.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Deep end, eh? Redemption is an act of paying off debts. So, no. I would argue Darla felt contrition for her sins, and performed a penance. The problem is, redemption does not equal the forgiveness of sins. That can only come about through Divine Intervention. (Remember, Angel has a deal with TPTB, his redemption and salvation is part of that deal.) Apparently, if you take events at face value, Darla was purified, spared destruction, and allowed into heaven after her death. I would argue the Powers et al, had mercy on her because of her good deeds in a difficult situation, more than her own merit. But this is all speculation. Season 4 was a mess, and the Powers were never really well explained.
 

NeonSlayer

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Darla the souled human wasn't the one pregnant or who staked herself. She had been gone since Drusilla sired her. Darla the soulless vampire orchestrated the rape, torture, & murder of thousands of people for 400 years. One good deed doesn't redeem that. She spent the entire pregnancy trying to kill Connor. She only changed her mind in the final several days because when he was so close to birth his soul overtook the black void where her lack of one would be.

It's no different than if Tara's soul went into Warren and he did one good deed. Imagine him saying "As soon as you're gone I'll go back to thinking you & your friends are weak bitches who should kneel before me and maybe I'll shoot Buffy again. So I guess I better die now before your goodness is out of my system."
 

spikenbuffy

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She also killed all passengers people in a bus just days before she killed herself.
 

Myheadsgonenumb

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Human Darla obviously didn't require redemption, as she was not the same person as the demon - although it was nice when she took responsibility and accepted her death. What happened next was not her fault - so again, no redemption required. I imagine the Darla that appears to Connor was the spirit of that human Darla we saw in The Trial.

Vampire Darla doesn't redeem herself because she is only acting the way she is because she is infected with Connor's soul. In essence she is in exactly the same position as season 4 Cordy but inverted (bad person possessed by goodness rather than good person possessed by evil.) If Cordelia is not responsible for what she did under Jasmine's influence, then Darla is not responsible for what she does under Connor's influence.
Her death - and the episode preceding it where she grieves for not being able to raise her child - are beautiful and tragic, but they are the result of a parasitic infection that Darla, when she is truly herself, is not happy about having. The Darla in the alleyway is not really Darla - anymore than season 4 Cordelia is really Cordy.
 

CHK DeWilSon

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Haven't read any answers yet cause this thought came to me.

So considering that when Darla became a demon and her soul was gone, did she really need to redeem herself?

Angelus doesn't need or want to redeem himself because he is a demon.

Now if Angel with his soul CHOSE to act on his urges and continuously kill and feed on people and gave into the darkness and did it willingly and with joy in his heart then there would unlikely be any redeeming for him. And his soul would be damned for eternity.

Darla as she was in her pregnant form was still a demon and her one wonderful selfless act would never make up for her vicious and many, many, many, many crimes over the centuries.

Connor seeing his 'mother' doesn't mean it was the demon version who sacrifice herself for him.
 
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