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Hot Topic: What if Spike had not been paralyzed in Season 2?

Ayko

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It's canon that vampires take longer to heal from fire-damage. Darla and Drusilla were set on fire and took ages for them both to recover (comparatively speaking to vampires shrugging off other damage such as bullets and falling off of buildings).
So Spike gets crushed and burned enough for his body to only be slowly able to heal itself. In fact isn't his face a bit messed up/burned in 'Surprise?', that would explain it.
I suppose the point could be argued either way but I still think you're "grasping at straws". Thanks for the friendly discussion though.
 

Dora

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It would have been a better program if he had died under the Organ....they could have had a character that actually had a point !
 

DeadlyDuo

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It's canon that vampires take longer to heal from fire-damage. Darla and Drusilla were set on fire and took ages for them both to recover (comparatively speaking to vampires shrugging off other damage such as bullets and falling off of buildings).
So Spike gets crushed and burned enough for his body to only be slowly able to heal itself. In fact isn't his face a bit messed up/burned in 'Surprise?', that would explain it.

Yes he does have a burn on his face for an episode or 2. but I think it's gone by the episode after Innocence.

It would have been a better program if he had died under the Organ....they could have had a character that actually had a point !

Spike saved Giles twice plus Buffy. He stopped Angelus killing Giles and he kept Drusilla out of the fray twice. If she'd gotten involved then both Giles and Buffy would be dead, so Spike did have a point and he had one in Season 3. It's only when Spuffy reared its ugly head that Spike ceased to be a character in his own right and Spuffy became his sole storyline.
 

Dora

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Yes he does have a burn on his face for an episode or 2. but I think it's gone by the episode after Innocence.



Spike saved Giles twice plus Buffy. He stopped Angelus killing Giles and he kept Drusilla out of the fray twice. If she'd gotten involved then both Giles and Buffy would be dead, so Spike did have a point and he had one in Season 3. It's only when Spuffy reared its ugly head that Spike ceased to be a character in his own right and Spuffy became his sole storyline.


Could not agree more about the Spuffy thing...... always said Spike + Dru would have made a great big bad in S6 , made something much more of the big bad than selling demon eggs from his crypt, a crypt we are lead to believe Buffy was jumping hes bones regularly....Spike with Dru selling demon eggs a world wide business ?
 

spikenbuffy

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Angelus would have killed him, Dru would be his girlfriend so it would have sucked.
 

katmobile

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Just a correction the orignal plan was to have Angelus kill Spike shortly after he emerged in Innocence. I don't know if Spike being wheelchair bound was part of that plan or not. I think that had Spike not been wheelchair bound then Angelus would probably have killed Spike but sneakily. I see them as being more or less equal in power - Angelus is physically stronger but Spike is more dexterous and he tends to pit himself against harder targets than Angelus. Angelus would probably win because he'd find a way to get under Spike's skin and play on his insecurities rather than be more of a bad ass in the fight - it's psychological warfare that Angelus really excels at.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Angelus would have killed him, Dru would be his girlfriend so it would have sucked.

Spike was originally supposed to have died after the organ fell on him at the end of WML Part 2 but he proved so popular with fans and the audience that he was kept around. The wheelchair was basically to keep him out of the action without killing him.

It is highly likely that Angelus would've had to kill him if he'd been able-bodied. Vampire hierarchy seems to suggest that, much like with lion prides, an alpha (often male but can be female eg Sunday) leads the group and sometimes there will be challenges for leadership which the alpha will then have to defend against. Spike killed the annoying one and took control of the rest of the group, and in Season 5 we see Mort planning to kill Harmony and take control of the group with the backing of the others.

Spike was still leading the group with Drusilla whilst in a wheelchair before Angelus showed up, however he was unable to defend his position so Angelus took control. By taking "Spike's girl", Angel was asserting his dominance over Spike. I think Dru does play a big factor here though. She is still sleeping with Spike despite that potentially being seen as undermining Angelus' leadership because he doesn't have exclusive access to her, however Angelus does nothing to stop her. It's highly likely that killing Spike would've made an enemy out of Dru which Angelus doesn't want. In BB&B, Dru is prepared to fight to defend Xander and Angelus backs down. He makes some comments, telling her that it "doesn't amuse" but he backs off. This could suggest that Angelus' leadership is dependent on his control of Dru (and given there history he does have a level of control over her) however he doesn't want to lose a fight to Dru because otherwise it shows her that he actually doesn't have that much control, it's all an illusion. Dru and Spike have an equal partnership so are happy for each other to take the lead eg in Lie to Me, Dru stops Spike killing Ford but Spike is still in charge when he stops the massacre when Buffy holds Dru hostage, whereas Angelus likes to be the one completely in charge. If Dru challenged him, it would show weakness on his part so his best chance at maintaining control is to keep Dru placated.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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It seems like it is only Angel and Spike that fight for dominance in the group. The women's power work differently.

In S2, Drusilla is the really most powerful member, even if Angel effectively leads the group, because Angel and Spike both fight for her affection. She does not have to fight for this position, she simply has it as a result of being the only woman.

During the Boxer Rebellion, Darla is angry, because Spike has killed a slayer and may now become the leader of the group. Darla sees it as Angelus's responsibility to put Spike in his place, so that she and Angelus can dominate the group together.

When one of the men prove themselves weak, such as when Angelus gets his soul or Spike teams up with Buffy, the women will simply leave them.
 

DeadlyDuo

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It seems like it is only Angel and Spike that fight for dominance in the group. The women's power work differently.

In S2, Drusilla is the really most powerful member, even if Angel effectively leads the group, because Angel and Spike both fight for her affection. She does not have to fight for this position, she simply has it as a result of being the only woman.

During the Boxer Rebellion, Darla is angry, because Spike has killed a slayer and may now become the leader of the group. Darla sees it as Angelus's responsibility to put Spike in his place, so that she and Angelus can dominate the group together.

When one of the men prove themselves weak, such as when Angelus gets his soul or Spike teams up with Buffy, the women will simply leave them.

I think vampire hierarchy does tend to be male dominated (with a few exceptions), possibly because gaining the position of alpha male often results in physical fights and even the possibility of death. Female vampires tend to stay out of the fray (though that's not to say they aren't extremely capable fighters) because there is perks to being involved with the alpha male without the consequences of being challenged for leadership.

What I find interesting about Dru in Season 2 is that she never stops sleeping with Spike, even though he's no longer the alpha male since he was unable to defend his position due to the wheelchair. She also sleeps with Angelus but is kind of undermining him as the alpha male because he doesn't have exclusive access to her. Given the history between Angelus, Dru and Spike which probably factored into how things played out, it does beg the question of what would've happen if it hadn't been Angelus trying to take over but some other random vampire. What would Dru have done then? She would've been seen as a desirable trophy by the vampire who challenged Spike (taking Spike's position and "Spike's girl") but would she have gone along with it or would she have stuck by Spike and assisted him with maintaining control? I personally think she would've stuck by Spike (like she did in Surprise) but then that also throws up the question of would she also be at risk of being killed like Spike would be (as the former alpha male who's at a major disadvantage due to the wheelchair) or would she be forcibly taken by the challenger (if they were victorious) and she doesn't get a say in the matter?

It's possible that being part of the Whirlwind was actually quite a cushy position for all involved in comparison to other vampire groups.

As for Darla, I don't think she was ever worried about Spike becoming leader of the group. She seems to have a really low opinion of him and was more annoyed that he was the one that killed a slayer rather than Angelus. At some point she left Spike and Dru and never returned. Also Darla probably knew that she could control Spike via Dru. If Spike refused to do something that Darla wanted him to do, then she could just get Dru to persuade him or give him the cold shoulder until he gave in.

Also Dru saw Spike teaming up with Buffy as a betrayal rather than him necessarily being weak (and it was kind of treated as if he'd cheated on her). Angelus' soul essentially prevented him from being a vampire whereas Spike was still killing innocent people and doing what he normally did. It was the betrayal of trust that drove a wedge between him and Dru.
 

FaithLehane16

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I find it funny how people think Angelus would kill Spike eventually, considering Angelus never did want to kill Spike in the past.
 

katmobile

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I find it funny how people think Angelus would kill Spike eventually, considering Angelus never did want to kill Spike in the past.
I actually can see that - but Angelus likes having another bloke to dominate but maybe Spike isn't so easy to dominate by then given that he's killed two slayers and has more strength and confidence.
 

DeadlyDuo

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I actually can see that - but Angelus likes having another bloke to dominate but maybe Spike isn't so easy to dominate by then given that he's killed two slayers and has more strength and confidence.

I think Angelus and Spike kind of developed a big brother/little brother bond in the flash backs. They wind each other up at times but other times they have each others backs eg The Girl in Question.
 

FaithLehane16

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I think Angelus and Spike kind of developed a big brother/little brother bond in the flash backs. They wind each other up at times but other times they have each others backs eg The Girl in Question.
Correct. They did have some sort of a love-hate relationship going. Also I believe that Darla would be pissed if Spike decided to stake Angel(us) on the spot, and Dru would be equally as pissed as Darla if Angel(us) took Spike away from her by staking her chosen undead life partner.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Dru would be equally as pissed as Darla if Angel(us) took Spike away from her by staking her chosen undead life partner.

I don't think Angelus is stupid enough to risk Dru's wrath by killing Spike, especially as Spike is probably the one who can calm Dru down the quickest when she does go off on one.
 

FaithLehane16

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I don't think Angelus is stupid enough to risk Dru's wrath by killing Spike, especially as Spike is probably the one who can calm Dru down the quickest when she does go off on one.
Which is why Spike is Dru's choice of life partner, because she needs that in a man. She needed that Poet's heart to understand her in ways nobody did.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Which is why Spike is Dru's choice of life partner, because she needs that in a man. She needed that Poet's heart to understand her in ways nobody did.

Sprusilla is the best couple in the Buffyverse. Dru was originally supposed to be in Lovers Walk and the episode was going to involver her and Spike in the middle of a lovers tiff. Unfortunately JL was unavailable so Spike came back alone. He was successful in get Dru back at least temporarily because Harmony said she left him for a Fungus Demon.
 

FaithLehane16

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Sprusilla is the best couple in the Buffyverse. Dru was originally supposed to be in Lovers Walk and the episode was going to involver her and Spike in the middle of a lovers tiff. Unfortunately JL was unavailable so Spike came back alone. He was successful in get Dru back at least temporarily because Harmony said she left him for a Fungus Demon.
Sprusilla and Bangel are the best couples of the Buffyverse. I wonder how that would've been if Drusilla was in Lover's Walk?
 

DeadlyDuo

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Sprusilla and Bangel are the best couples of the Buffyverse. I wonder how that would've been if Drusilla was in Lover's Walk?

I think Spike and Dru would've been causing chao and carnage separately and the Scoobies figure that if they can get Spike and Dru back together then they'd stop causing chaos and leave town. The fight with the mayor's minions might be what reunites them.
 

FaithLehane16

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I think Spike and Dru would've been causing chao and carnage separately and the Scoobies figure that if they can get Spike and Dru back together then they'd stop causing chaos and leave town. The fight with the mayor's minions might be what reunites them.
Interesting. They'd might prevent Xander&Willow being in a basement?
 
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