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How Buffy as a series is ended yay or nay ?

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
586
Age
37
Ok so Buffy ends with both Angel and Spike still hanging around but she is with neither. She, Willow and Xander are now drifting/drifted apart with there own lives. She herself is now a cop with Faith.
So as the end to BtVS the series, leaving the rest of S12 out it. Is the actual ending a good way to end it or not, Yay or Nay ?
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
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Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,075
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The Moot, England
Sineya
I look at the end of S12 and compare it to the end of S7. Buffy has survived yet another apocalypse. She is surrounded by everyone who was with her at the end of S7. She is yet again single and recently had a significant moment with her two vampire exes, just like in S7.
Yet in the intervening years (6?) she has undergone little in the way personal growth.

And that's the problem. Think of Buffy at the end of S1. Compared to Buffy at the end of S3. And contrast that with her character at the end of S5. And finally take stock of her at the end of S7.
It can be argued that Buffy's story could've been left alone after any of those significant milestones; surviving her first prophesied death, surviving high school and graduating, sacrificing herself for her sister/the world, changing the world by no longer being 'one girl in all the...'
Those Buffy's had been through major things in the intermittent years. Her character had grown and changed, the stories that were told and the struggles that we watched were significant.

The main problem with the comics is that they never reinvented themselves like the show did every couple of years. Although S8 had problems, and had elements that were utterly bonkers, it was at least daring and shook things up a bit.
Once Buffy and co ended up in San Francisco their story more or less stagnated. Did she undergo any significant changes? No. The biggest development (and the most interesting) is that she joined the SF police when she was thirty. That was interesting.

So...the ending was good enough, but almost everything that came before was a massive missed opportunity in terms of story-telling. Pity.

To be fair I would say that some other characters DID go through significant, welcome and organic growth during the comics run. Faith, Xander, Willow to name three.
 
fauxindigo
fauxindigo
nice analysis

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
586
Age
37
I look at the end of S12 and compare it to the end of S7. Buffy has survived yet another apocalypse. She is surrounded by everyone who was with her at the end of S7. She is yet again single and recently had a significant moment with her two vampire exes, just like in S7.
Yet in the intervening years (6?) she has undergone little in the way personal growth.

And that's the problem. Think of Buffy at the end of S1. Compared to Buffy at the end of S3. And contrast that with her character at the end of S5. And finally take stock of her at the end of S7.
It can be argued that Buffy's story could've been left alone after any of those significant milestones; surviving her first prophesied death, surviving high school and graduating, sacrificing herself for her sister/the world, changing the world by no longer being 'one girl in all the...'
Those Buffy's had been through major things in the intermittent years. Her character had grown and changed, the stories that were told and the struggles that we watched were significant.

The main problem with the comics is that they never reinvented themselves like the show did every couple of years. Although S8 had problems, and had elements that were utterly bonkers, it was at least daring and shook things up a bit.
Once Buffy and co ended up in San Francisco their story more or less stagnated. Did she undergo any significant changes? No. The biggest development (and the most interesting) is that she joined the SF police when she was thirty. That was interesting.

So...the ending was good enough, but almost everything that came before was a massive missed opportunity in terms of story-telling. Pity.

To be fair I would say that some other characters DID go through significant, welcome and organic growth during the comics run. Faith, Xander, Willow to name three.
Now I know I might be alone on this but for me the bit that worked for me was her/Willow and Xander each drifting apart into there own lives. That worked for me as it happened to me. People I was close with in school I wasn't out if it and at the same time I had people who I didnt get on with at school I became close after it. Certainly by 30 I have them on my FB and that's pretty much it.

Your right about the similarity to Chosen (though chosen had big issues too imo) minus the cookie dough speech (thank God) . They could've done something different instead. Buffy is what 30, she's already aged past both Vampires who are what 26/27. She wants children which she can't have with either guy. You think they could have mentioned that instead. It seemed like it was done so both Shipper groups were left happy. I say that as Spuffy fan.

I agree about Faith, I thought her comics (and the Brian Lynch Spike ones) were the best in the whole series. I tried to avoid talking about S12 as a whole because I thought the season was terrible and tried to focus on just the ending but your point about her becoming a cop being the most interesting thing resonated with me. It's not that interesting but compared to everything else in this season it was. Though I think it might be more about her and Faith which should've happened a lot sooner imo like on the show.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
I totally agree with you about finding Buffy/Willow/Xander drifting apart realistic.

The Bronze

Rogue Demon Hunter
Joined
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Black Thorn
Yay and nay. Honestly after 12 seasons and 20 odd years with the character I was glad to see a reasonably happy ending. I don't actually think it did show the scoobies drifting apart either. They're family. Might not be able to spend as much time together but I didn't get any kind of vibe that they wouldn't be close.

Unfortunately despite my personal preference for a happy ending it was quite weak in many ways. Firstly the shipper pandering was just ridiculous. Pick one, pick the other, pick someone else or have everyone move on! Don't just leave them all hanging about because you're scared of a backlash. I'm also not convinced by Buffy the cop either. It was a nice throw back to the show but I just don't see her taking orders. I actually think the actual reckoning described by Harmony would have been a more epic ending. Very tragic but it actually had more heart and I thought it was better thought out.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
586
Age
37
Yay and nay. Honestly after 12 seasons and 20 odd years with the character I was glad to see a reasonably happy ending. I don't actually think it did show the scoobies drifting apart either. They're family. Might not be able to spend as much time together but I didn't get any kind of vibe that they wouldn't be close.

Unfortunately despite my personal preference for a happy ending it was quite weak in many ways. Firstly the shipper pandering was just ridiculous. Pick one, pick the other, pick someone else or have everyone move on! Don't just leave them all hanging about because you're scared of a backlash. I'm also not convinced by Buffy the cop either. It was a nice throw back to the show but I just don't see her taking orders. I actually think the actual reckoning described by Harmony would have been a more epic ending. Very tragic but it actually had more heart and I thought it was better thought out.
Not saying they are enemies just that they have there own lives
 

Spanky

I'm came here to chew bubblegum and go off topic.
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
19,820
Black Thorn
I think the ending was a missed opportunity. Since they knew they were rebooting it, I would have loved a "6 Feet Under" type ending.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
733
Age
47
Ok so Buffy ends with both Angel and Spike still hanging around but she is with neither. She, Willow and Xander are now drifting/drifted apart with there own lives. She herself is now a cop with Faith.
So as the end to BtVS the series, leaving the rest of S12 out it. Is the actual ending a good way to end it or not, Yay or Nay ?
On balance yay I think we're given enough leeway to sail whatever ship we want and it's positive and I love with idea of Fuffy shared future even though I don't ship them.
 

sosa lola

Scooby
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
4,797
Age
35
Now I know I might be alone on this but for me the bit that worked for me was her/Willow and Xander each drifting apart into there own lives.
There's a difference between mere high school friends and what Buffy had with Xander and Willow. Xander and Willow were more family than just high school friends. Heck Xander is sort of her brother-in-law now. The father of her niece. He is family.

Willow and Buffy lived together for years now. They, along with Xander, helped raise and protect Dawn. This bond is far more than just a high school friendship.

Not saying they are enemies just that they have there own lives
Having their own lives doesn't equal drifting apart. Buffy, Xander and Willow see each other on a daily basis. If not daily, then weekly. It's not like they only see each other in holidays.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
733
Age
47
Is Fred In heaven? That's my answer.
It's clear from what Angel says that Illyria will come back when she's killed enough demons so things are safe enough to open the portal. Fred is still in there acting as her soul, her conscience but it'll be like she's laying dormant. I think she'll return.
 

sallyride

Townie
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
3
So, this is my first and maybe only post, if no one bothers with me. Not that I blame anyone. It’s worse than the Mueller report, I guess. In short: NAY. I agree with Topher regarding growth, in particular. Show is the success of a writer, tell simply kills everything.

I get it that this is long, but I want to understand why this whole story feels “just wrong” and why it “derailed” IMO. (I think it started, way back when, because of ATS, but maybe I see Buffy mentioned even on that show, every season, (so I had hope). I am just trying to comprehend the whole story of Buffy—even if I really thought there was the best romance I ever saw with Buffy and Angel. It seemed that “high school is hell” didn’t cover the entirety of the story by a stretch.

I used to read this forum when there were more people who thought Buffy and Angel were more than just some crush, but balanced each other in the goals of the piece: trying to get normal and human. But now not so much maybe. Maybe, you see the whole thing is supposed to go with Spike/Buffy. I am talking the main protagonists, as Xander and Willow and Giles and Faith were the most important supporting protagonists. I have so little use for Dawn and Connor because they actually ended the story, and I was too stupid to see it, I guess.

Mostly, I hope some of you can tell me why I even cared about this story. I admit I don’t listen to all the podcasts on my DVD’s—yeah I got that and real paper comics, too. Eventually. Does that mean I am old? Snicker. (See Giles, and the “smelly,” hee).

I honestly thought the whole thing would go “full circle” with finally having Angel and Buffy figure out they choose a real life, they balance each other, they partner with each other and that would be a whole ‘nother story. ‘Normal’ and “human” were the goals, to me. Mostly.

I haven’t seen Angel really “stray” over the years from Buffy—even with this weirdness of Illyria-Fred ‘jumping his bones’ and calling that true love or something? He seemed very surprised in this alter universe about it, so I have no idea about a lot of this alter stuff. When he was drugged in season 4 I could tell it was all in his mind, literally, going into the deep subconscious (where he found Buffy, of course, despite the ‘inquiry’ into desire/sex with whatever Cordy had become/is).

I recognize some people feel it is a sin to even “lust” so he isn’t 100 per cent pure to you, but he sure had pure love for Buffy, IMO. Including sex. ( I just don’t think I should pluck out my eyes, or your God, wouldn’t have given me eyes to survive; and in my happiness for eyes, looking doesn’t have to disturb anyone else’s person or privacy for my happiness, not to mention beauty and happiness and happiness “for” is also a part of being human).

I guess I understand the “torture” of giving Angel a day of humanity to take it away, but not facing the curse is more dead brained than the undead of the story. It has been a lot of show, but avoids the reality of all witches, and even goddesses!

Don’t witches and goddesses know a thing or two about curses and the rules to make or undo them? I mean there’s necromancy all over the place to explain some of this, right?

Was Spike human in the search of the soul, so that is why so much pain? Why was he returned as a vampire with a soul, when he had never been one before? The speaker said he would be what he was before and that sure wasn’t a vampire with a soul.

I don’t even understand what didn’t happen for Buffy and “what happened” with Angel and I bought the comics—Angel is what now? Alter dimensional, like without the space ships and robots, but somewhere all dust and gas?—I have no words to define what he’s doing or who he is or why he gave up on his curse or why being a god is the new definition of power, other than being immortal and (boring) thinking he is important in all that sheer, soul crushing, existential meaninglessness he actually shows he now is, since he can’t even be bothered with Connor, the supposed (deepest desire for human normal) love of his life, when he brings up Buffy herself more often and then is practically gibbering to himself, “the precious.” Yeah, I should shorten that and bake it.

And now we speak of Buffy? Suddenly all “makes sense” in this great saga for Buffy decided on San Francisco—with its Angel Island, and Connor btw—and a big, fat, loaded gun for a cop job, with a little butt kicking on Faith for daring to color outside the black lines and * white * spaces? REALLY? How many ways is this all wrong, let me count the ways!

And use the “Wait a minute” pose…didn’t Spike turn human at the end of season 7, when he “joined” Buffy in the cough “hand holding” cough, and he actually transformed right there through fire? Isn’t that why he laughed? He understood his death would actually *end * what he is (and my guess is that has to include his immortality? ) Well, except the soul locket/necklace and the whole plot on ATS of looking-for-a-physical/material body- part.

So….Why would Spike choose a vampire body, btw? The only one available, according to Fred? Didn’t they have these, an embryo bank would have done the trick for the story, considering the soul was already uniquely arranged for having. Baby Spike would have been a super hoot! Hey, they aged Connor quick enough. And having ANY human around might have been of some use?

I know I read in “After the Fall”—another set of comics—that Cordy and Wes helped Angel in hell pretend to be strong as a vampire, but he was indeed human—that was some baptizing rain at the end of ATS season 5 riding Cordy’s head—a male dragon, ha ha whatever; and I don’t really get the ‘how’. Are they saying earth is hell and because each of us perceives a different reality there are many hells? You tell me.

I suffered through all this story and stuff for Buffy and Angel to finally ‘figure out the curse’ and figure out making their own family didn’t mean you ‘gave up’ much of anything. You grow and your world grows, even if tasks within it are forms of ‘practice’ in your learning. It is hard, but not all “evil.”

You kind of take on more, but learn how. You learn and develop and recognize you aren’t the only story in the room. Those who love you, support you, and you want to support them. you don’t always even agree. I saw that with Angel and Buffy. This was not some “crush.” Angel also showed Buffy respect, even if he tried to help, as a. he had his own life; b. he thought his experience could help, even if he had never fallen in love “like that” before. You have deep connections, but no one is a complete ‘mind reader.’ You learn “legal” and “right” are not synonyms.

So, like I said, that all that means you change and you GROW. You practice to find your best strengths, your deepest passions and the consequences of choices can free or imprison you and any future choices. That is when you learn about real power.

You don’t have to remain “owned” by the past.

For Buffy and Angel, too, Power is something you have to see you always had. It is when you decide to stop giving power to things that only hurt you.

You take your own power to choose something else. Maybe you have to give yourself some forgiveness for taking so long to figure that out. It is why the whole AR story didn’t work at all for me. It was all about Spike and how sincere his love was. So, what? It wasn’t about him. The story was about Buffy’s sense of violation, not to mention, she had a lot of guilt in a. murdering Angel, b. raging against everyone when she hadn’t even complained to anyone how she felt forced back into a life she thought she had given her all. And worse, it didn’t change a thing, but went around her, to her view and even got worse.

When did Buffy choose her love also counted for herself, if season six was self hate? ( I don’t know where the heck it came from when she mostly had done a good job with all the terror, terrible, and great creative growth to understand why death is also in life. And, yes, Angel, still loved her with all his heart; so did her family. Obviously Spike is there for a reason that isn’t just him “growing a soul” by inches that is “all about Buffy.” Wasn’t that a rule once for holding STORY together?

And that is what I was waiting for with Angel. The Sanctuary place—genius! I really kept up my hopes seeing that.

Failure. It’s now: I am God and crush the infidels?

Wasn’t Angel, “true” to Buffy, all along, and it had simply been always denied by the curse? When were the writers going to actually confront that big “brush off” after 19 years of “the cone of silence.” All they ever did was “take it all away” in very awkward ways, especially in the comics.

Anyway, to me, Buffy and Angel showed, physically and emotionally, nakedly who they are, what love even looks like. They were love and that is why they were the gods of creation/destruction as is life itself. I mean that is what season eight looked like to me. I thought that was stunning and beautiful.

Suddenly it’s Eden and Buffy chooses being twelve or some great realization of self-betrayal—that is what Joss said? How about invading another country with a freaking army? Does that count as who are these people? Having a thing, is to use it without plan, purpose, or even plot?

Or was it the big self betrayal she dared to choose the love of her life, Angel? I can’t tell? Aren’t people supposed to grow up and make their own families: or is it required to lie under other people’s feet and chip in a few tips? No one is perfect, it takes practice, and in life and death, pretty close to perfect practice, which she did: she survived to NOT tell about it? Is that her damage?

When it comes to choice and consequence, I think that is why I didn’t like how they handled the AR. Buffy should have been the one to figure out she didn’t have to give away her power only to pain of the past. She could be wise. Didn’t Willow show some of this, even if she also showed habituation that could be callous. But, what about WITCH? Doesn’t witchery come out of pain, not just brain? The greatest guilt of murder of Angel never really got the “light of day” that all this AR stuff did for YEARS and seasons of years. All fixed and dump the guy, Spike? What? Isn’t “time” a problem here with a vampire, in that Buffy will indeed die, period? Angel’s story was all about the desire for a human death, his redemption thus materialized for a human time and it was one of love.

I never got that with Spuffy? Was it something else important I missed? Who does the dishes or buys new furniture? Is that the goal of ‘normal’ being defined for the entirety of this story and for the protagonists showing me they are doing the defining?

I just thought there would be more balance on good and evil and the nature of pain. Afterall the greatest joys hurt some, too. See child born.

I am a shipper and I honestly thought Buffy and Angel fit—they worked things out together, they didn’t always agree, but tried to see the other’s POV, it wasn’t always easy, and that made it honest, to me.

I thought Buffy and Angel would deal with the curse==why they make such a big deal of their sexual union, too—and Buffy would be a * firewoman, * mostly because the whole enterprise was so anti-gun. Not to mention handling long hoses for the goofs among us.

Well, also “fire” and “water” seemed to be the big elements for big, deep, hidden, but significant, symbolic meaning used for signaling the biggest transformations.

This used to be a board for my ship to feel a little safe for saying this stuff and I really just want to understand why Buffy and Angel just fizzled and suddenly Illyria—isn’t he a god encapsulating Fred with some sort of leaky, soulness factor?

I agree with the above poster that Buffy really showed growth and change after she drowned, after she murdered Angel—even if he is already dead, he did have a soul and that is also why she felt so guilty; isn’t that the only person she actually murdered ever?

Does anyone notice that Buffy could always tell when Angel is around got ignored in season Twilight? I honestly liked that the love of Buffy and Angel made paradise, as I thought it was both romantic and showed their “true colors.” Most of all the Angel stuff didn’t track—I thought the whole London episode was boring and the idea he would go to Ireland for a vaycay was preposterous. Isn’t that where he slaughtered his family, et al and never really “atoned” for all that?

Anyway, I don’t understand why Angel always brings up Buffy as “the one” in every single season, but I am left with this WTF? It all just fizzles—and Buffy riding herd on Faith…who does she think SHE is? Face-palm HARD! And not on mine, alone!

Why didn’t Buffy and Angel “work out” like I was lead on to believe would happen all these years? Even if I agree suddenly dumping Spike because of ‘rising passions’ in violence—and they all have lives of violence is also WTF? Shouldn’t Spike have become the actual narrator-poet person of this final diatribe, or something?

Okay. I feel really stupid. Show me. And yeah, loving a job with possible ‘fringe benefits’ of subordinates is an appalling idea of romance and female empowerment, BTW.

I am sorry to go on so long, but somebody has to understand this story and how I got it all so wrong. Other than just waiting for Buffy and Angel to come full circle, because this, most certainly, was not my imagination for holding out for it. Otherwise, why bring up Buffy and Angel, every single season, even when Angel wasn’t even around?

Spike didn’t hold that level of her fascination. All this Spike romance complexity only proves his story, his love, and I do feel sorry for Spike-Buffy shippers. I know you have to think that lame ass excuse to end “domesticity’ was also a cheat, considering they had zero impediments EVER to romance, sex, fighting with or for anything. Worst fault of all: I never got the idea Spike ever wanted to be mortal. Ever.

Spike stays a vampire with a soul. Buffy is mortal. That not only makes her unique, it makes her precious. She will die. THIS is why Spuffy is called a (helpless) tragedy.

Fixing it? IMO, Dru and Illyria actually are a great couple. Maybe that leaky soulness “remembered human” stuff, according to the Judge, if I recall, will “rub off” on Dru in or out of time? Then, she’d be ready. This new “mistress” of “Boom” comics is a whole different sage, and I have no idea why they have the old storie’s faces, But anyhow, meanwhile, after Buffy dies, that still leaves Spike suffering and alone---wait…here comes another “good time.” So, Spike. So, not really.

That striving to be fully human, understanding “the gift” of death, shown and demonstrated by the power of love, is why Buffy and Angel will always captivate my heart. It’s honest, it’s positive, and, best of all, true; THAT is what I call a happy ending for a story.

Even Angel got saddled with a mortal child that shows how badly he wanted simply “a death in life.” Buffy got saddled with Dawn, and who is the one person in her whole saga who got “normal,’ but (also showing love, even with a pregnancy, human potential and “form” of immortality beyond death), with “human” and “normal” Xander—the “show” of how much Buffy wanted it! They kept these simple ideas of “normal” and “human” until the end of the comics, IMO.

So, it seems to me that “human’ and “normal” were the goals of the narrative? When did that change? How can they just “skip” that part of human/normal for Angel himself, when they show Buffy won her “human/normal?”

I know this is too much, maybe for one person, but if you guys go through the story, it would help me see how I could get this whole thing so wrong, into some just fizzle or fade away that I don’t understand at all. It’s a story, for crying out loud and this makes a lot of work feel like a story nobody ever intended to read as a piece, at least.

Why was I so wrong about Buffy and Angel “becoming” their own dream of themselves? And keeping track of the ‘point’ of the story, in their goals of ‘human’ and ‘mortal’?

I just thought of the horror of Twilight, the other one. Is Buffy supposed to end up a vampire—I think that sucks. Snicker.

Thanks for anybody who survived this, and I do hope you will take parts or tell me how you see it and show me, if you can, how that is supported in the story, if you can, too, to help me accept this. That seems to be the problem. It somehow stinks because I don’t understand this ‘this.’

Start anywhere, go anywhere, I will follow your trail before I pipe up!

Sally sez S’allez MWAH!
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
733
Age
47
So, this is my first and maybe only post, if no one bothers with me. Not that I blame anyone. It’s worse than the Mueller report, I guess. In short: NAY. I agree with Topher regarding growth, in particular. Show is the success of a writer, tell simply kills everything.

I get it that this is long, but I want to understand why this whole story feels “just wrong” and why it “derailed” IMO. (I think it started, way back when, because of ATS, but maybe I see Buffy mentioned even on that show, every season, (so I had hope). I am just trying to comprehend the whole story of Buffy—even if I really thought there was the best romance I ever saw with Buffy and Angel. It seemed that “high school is hell” didn’t cover the entirety of the story by a stretch.

I used to read this forum when there were more people who thought Buffy and Angel were more than just some crush, but balanced each other in the goals of the piece: trying to get normal and human. But now not so much maybe. Maybe, you see the whole thing is supposed to go with Spike/Buffy. I am talking the main protagonists, as Xander and Willow and Giles and Faith were the most important supporting protagonists. I have so little use for Dawn and Connor because they actually ended the story, and I was too stupid to see it, I guess.

Mostly, I hope some of you can tell me why I even cared about this story. I admit I don’t listen to all the podcasts on my DVD’s—yeah I got that and real paper comics, too. Eventually. Does that mean I am old? Snicker. (See Giles, and the “smelly,” hee).

I honestly thought the whole thing would go “full circle” with finally having Angel and Buffy figure out they choose a real life, they balance each other, they partner with each other and that would be a whole ‘nother story. ‘Normal’ and “human” were the goals, to me. Mostly.

I haven’t seen Angel really “stray” over the years from Buffy—even with this weirdness of Illyria-Fred ‘jumping his bones’ and calling that true love or something? He seemed very surprised in this alter universe about it, so I have no idea about a lot of this alter stuff. When he was drugged in season 4 I could tell it was all in his mind, literally, going into the deep subconscious (where he found Buffy, of course, despite the ‘inquiry’ into desire/sex with whatever Cordy had become/is).

I recognize some people feel it is a sin to even “lust” so he isn’t 100 per cent pure to you, but he sure had pure love for Buffy, IMO. Including sex. ( I just don’t think I should pluck out my eyes, or your God, wouldn’t have given me eyes to survive; and in my happiness for eyes, looking doesn’t have to disturb anyone else’s person or privacy for my happiness, not to mention beauty and happiness and happiness “for” is also a part of being human).

I guess I understand the “torture” of giving Angel a day of humanity to take it away, but not facing the curse is more dead brained than the undead of the story. It has been a lot of show, but avoids the reality of all witches, and even goddesses!

Don’t witches and goddesses know a thing or two about curses and the rules to make or undo them? I mean there’s necromancy all over the place to explain some of this, right?

Was Spike human in the search of the soul, so that is why so much pain? Why was he returned as a vampire with a soul, when he had never been one before? The speaker said he would be what he was before and that sure wasn’t a vampire with a soul.

I don’t even understand what didn’t happen for Buffy and “what happened” with Angel and I bought the comics—Angel is what now? Alter dimensional, like without the space ships and robots, but somewhere all dust and gas?—I have no words to define what he’s doing or who he is or why he gave up on his curse or why being a god is the new definition of power, other than being immortal and (boring) thinking he is important in all that sheer, soul crushing, existential meaninglessness he actually shows he now is, since he can’t even be bothered with Connor, the supposed (deepest desire for human normal) love of his life, when he brings up Buffy herself more often and then is practically gibbering to himself, “the precious.” Yeah, I should shorten that and bake it.

And now we speak of Buffy? Suddenly all “makes sense” in this great saga for Buffy decided on San Francisco—with its Angel Island, and Connor btw—and a big, fat, loaded gun for a cop job, with a little butt kicking on Faith for daring to color outside the black lines and * white * spaces? REALLY? How many ways is this all wrong, let me count the ways!

And use the “Wait a minute” pose…didn’t Spike turn human at the end of season 7, when he “joined” Buffy in the cough “hand holding” cough, and he actually transformed right there through fire? Isn’t that why he laughed? He understood his death would actually *end * what he is (and my guess is that has to include his immortality? ) Well, except the soul locket/necklace and the whole plot on ATS of looking-for-a-physical/material body- part.

So….Why would Spike choose a vampire body, btw? The only one available, according to Fred? Didn’t they have these, an embryo bank would have done the trick for the story, considering the soul was already uniquely arranged for having. Baby Spike would have been a super hoot! Hey, they aged Connor quick enough. And having ANY human around might have been of some use?

I know I read in “After the Fall”—another set of comics—that Cordy and Wes helped Angel in hell pretend to be strong as a vampire, but he was indeed human—that was some baptizing rain at the end of ATS season 5 riding Cordy’s head—a male dragon, ha ha whatever; and I don’t really get the ‘how’. Are they saying earth is hell and because each of us perceives a different reality there are many hells? You tell me.

I suffered through all this story and stuff for Buffy and Angel to finally ‘figure out the curse’ and figure out making their own family didn’t mean you ‘gave up’ much of anything. You grow and your world grows, even if tasks within it are forms of ‘practice’ in your learning. It is hard, but not all “evil.”

You kind of take on more, but learn how. You learn and develop and recognize you aren’t the only story in the room. Those who love you, support you, and you want to support them. you don’t always even agree. I saw that with Angel and Buffy. This was not some “crush.” Angel also showed Buffy respect, even if he tried to help, as a. he had his own life; b. he thought his experience could help, even if he had never fallen in love “like that” before. You have deep connections, but no one is a complete ‘mind reader.’ You learn “legal” and “right” are not synonyms.

So, like I said, that all that means you change and you GROW. You practice to find your best strengths, your deepest passions and the consequences of choices can free or imprison you and any future choices. That is when you learn about real power.

You don’t have to remain “owned” by the past.

For Buffy and Angel, too, Power is something you have to see you always had. It is when you decide to stop giving power to things that only hurt you.

You take your own power to choose something else. Maybe you have to give yourself some forgiveness for taking so long to figure that out. It is why the whole AR story didn’t work at all for me. It was all about Spike and how sincere his love was. So, what? It wasn’t about him. The story was about Buffy’s sense of violation, not to mention, she had a lot of guilt in a. murdering Angel, b. raging against everyone when she hadn’t even complained to anyone how she felt forced back into a life she thought she had given her all. And worse, it didn’t change a thing, but went around her, to her view and even got worse.

When did Buffy choose her love also counted for herself, if season six was self hate? ( I don’t know where the heck it came from when she mostly had done a good job with all the terror, terrible, and great creative growth to understand why death is also in life. And, yes, Angel, still loved her with all his heart; so did her family. Obviously Spike is there for a reason that isn’t just him “growing a soul” by inches that is “all about Buffy.” Wasn’t that a rule once for holding STORY together?

And that is what I was waiting for with Angel. The Sanctuary place—genius! I really kept up my hopes seeing that.

Failure. It’s now: I am God and crush the infidels?

Wasn’t Angel, “true” to Buffy, all along, and it had simply been always denied by the curse? When were the writers going to actually confront that big “brush off” after 19 years of “the cone of silence.” All they ever did was “take it all away” in very awkward ways, especially in the comics.

Anyway, to me, Buffy and Angel showed, physically and emotionally, nakedly who they are, what love even looks like. They were love and that is why they were the gods of creation/destruction as is life itself. I mean that is what season eight looked like to me. I thought that was stunning and beautiful.

Suddenly it’s Eden and Buffy chooses being twelve or some great realization of self-betrayal—that is what Joss said? How about invading another country with a freaking army? Does that count as who are these people? Having a thing, is to use it without plan, purpose, or even plot?

Or was it the big self betrayal she dared to choose the love of her life, Angel? I can’t tell? Aren’t people supposed to grow up and make their own families: or is it required to lie under other people’s feet and chip in a few tips? No one is perfect, it takes practice, and in life and death, pretty close to perfect practice, which she did: she survived to NOT tell about it? Is that her damage?

When it comes to choice and consequence, I think that is why I didn’t like how they handled the AR. Buffy should have been the one to figure out she didn’t have to give away her power only to pain of the past. She could be wise. Didn’t Willow show some of this, even if she also showed habituation that could be callous. But, what about WITCH? Doesn’t witchery come out of pain, not just brain? The greatest guilt of murder of Angel never really got the “light of day” that all this AR stuff did for YEARS and seasons of years. All fixed and dump the guy, Spike? What? Isn’t “time” a problem here with a vampire, in that Buffy will indeed die, period? Angel’s story was all about the desire for a human death, his redemption thus materialized for a human time and it was one of love.

I never got that with Spuffy? Was it something else important I missed? Who does the dishes or buys new furniture? Is that the goal of ‘normal’ being defined for the entirety of this story and for the protagonists showing me they are doing the defining?

I just thought there would be more balance on good and evil and the nature of pain. Afterall the greatest joys hurt some, too. See child born.

I am a shipper and I honestly thought Buffy and Angel fit—they worked things out together, they didn’t always agree, but tried to see the other’s POV, it wasn’t always easy, and that made it honest, to me.

I thought Buffy and Angel would deal with the curse==why they make such a big deal of their sexual union, too—and Buffy would be a * firewoman, * mostly because the whole enterprise was so anti-gun. Not to mention handling long hoses for the goofs among us.

Well, also “fire” and “water” seemed to be the big elements for big, deep, hidden, but significant, symbolic meaning used for signaling the biggest transformations.

This used to be a board for my ship to feel a little safe for saying this stuff and I really just want to understand why Buffy and Angel just fizzled and suddenly Illyria—isn’t he a god encapsulating Fred with some sort of leaky, soulness factor?

I agree with the above poster that Buffy really showed growth and change after she drowned, after she murdered Angel—even if he is already dead, he did have a soul and that is also why she felt so guilty; isn’t that the only person she actually murdered ever?

Does anyone notice that Buffy could always tell when Angel is around got ignored in season Twilight? I honestly liked that the love of Buffy and Angel made paradise, as I thought it was both romantic and showed their “true colors.” Most of all the Angel stuff didn’t track—I thought the whole London episode was boring and the idea he would go to Ireland for a vaycay was preposterous. Isn’t that where he slaughtered his family, et al and never really “atoned” for all that?

Anyway, I don’t understand why Angel always brings up Buffy as “the one” in every single season, but I am left with this WTF? It all just fizzles—and Buffy riding herd on Faith…who does she think SHE is? Face-palm HARD! And not on mine, alone!

Why didn’t Buffy and Angel “work out” like I was lead on to believe would happen all these years? Even if I agree suddenly dumping Spike because of ‘rising passions’ in violence—and they all have lives of violence is also WTF? Shouldn’t Spike have become the actual narrator-poet person of this final diatribe, or something?

Okay. I feel really stupid. Show me. And yeah, loving a job with possible ‘fringe benefits’ of subordinates is an appalling idea of romance and female empowerment, BTW.

I am sorry to go on so long, but somebody has to understand this story and how I got it all so wrong. Other than just waiting for Buffy and Angel to come full circle, because this, most certainly, was not my imagination for holding out for it. Otherwise, why bring up Buffy and Angel, every single season, even when Angel wasn’t even around?

Spike didn’t hold that level of her fascination. All this Spike romance complexity only proves his story, his love, and I do feel sorry for Spike-Buffy shippers. I know you have to think that lame ass excuse to end “domesticity’ was also a cheat, considering they had zero impediments EVER to romance, sex, fighting with or for anything. Worst fault of all: I never got the idea Spike ever wanted to be mortal. Ever.

Spike stays a vampire with a soul. Buffy is mortal. That not only makes her unique, it makes her precious. She will die. THIS is why Spuffy is called a (helpless) tragedy.

Fixing it? IMO, Dru and Illyria actually are a great couple. Maybe that leaky soulness “remembered human” stuff, according to the Judge, if I recall, will “rub off” on Dru in or out of time? Then, she’d be ready. This new “mistress” of “Boom” comics is a whole different sage, and I have no idea why they have the old storie’s faces, But anyhow, meanwhile, after Buffy dies, that still leaves Spike suffering and alone---wait…here comes another “good time.” So, Spike. So, not really.

That striving to be fully human, understanding “the gift” of death, shown and demonstrated by the power of love, is why Buffy and Angel will always captivate my heart. It’s honest, it’s positive, and, best of all, true; THAT is what I call a happy ending for a story.

Even Angel got saddled with a mortal child that shows how badly he wanted simply “a death in life.” Buffy got saddled with Dawn, and who is the one person in her whole saga who got “normal,’ but (also showing love, even with a pregnancy, human potential and “form” of immortality beyond death), with “human” and “normal” Xander—the “show” of how much Buffy wanted it! They kept these simple ideas of “normal” and “human” until the end of the comics, IMO.

So, it seems to me that “human’ and “normal” were the goals of the narrative? When did that change? How can they just “skip” that part of human/normal for Angel himself, when they show Buffy won her “human/normal?”

I know this is too much, maybe for one person, but if you guys go through the story, it would help me see how I could get this whole thing so wrong, into some just fizzle or fade away that I don’t understand at all. It’s a story, for crying out loud and this makes a lot of work feel like a story nobody ever intended to read as a piece, at least.

Why was I so wrong about Buffy and Angel “becoming” their own dream of themselves? And keeping track of the ‘point’ of the story, in their goals of ‘human’ and ‘mortal’?

I just thought of the horror of Twilight, the other one. Is Buffy supposed to end up a vampire—I think that sucks. Snicker.

Thanks for anybody who survived this, and I do hope you will take parts or tell me how you see it and show me, if you can, how that is supported in the story, if you can, too, to help me accept this. That seems to be the problem. It somehow stinks because I don’t understand this ‘this.’

Start anywhere, go anywhere, I will follow your trail before I pipe up!

Sally sez S’allez MWAH!
In a sense you have an idea that Bangel is a thing but it's platonic. She'll always love him and they are connected but they aren't workable as a couple. Magic isn't modular and it's changed a lot over the years.

Actually I would have hated it if Buffy and Angel had gone off into the sunset together and he'd shanshued not just because I'm a Spuffy but because it's a cliche to have the supposed OTP end up together Sex and the City did it, Friends did it, Scrubs did it...yawn. Also the problem of IWRY isn't solved - Angel can't protect and work with Buffy as a human and the Spuffy break up may indicate that there are problems with vampires with souls generally - to me it's obvious the birth of Joyce made Buffy broody for example. Also I think Angel takes over given the chance Ilyria won't let him do that. I actually kinda hated how everyone slobbered over Angel in season twelve although I did love he inspired Ilyria's heroism. The immortal words of Mick Jagger 'you can't always get what you want' and I think a solution most camps are a bit unhappy with is better than one that panders to one group and stabs another in the back.
Also no character development? At least Buffy's got past the 'my relationships don't work I'll never be happy' stich and is building a future for herself and Faith with pensions I actually really like that.
 

The Ferg

Scooby
Joined
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I'm just glad they got the chance to have a proper ending. There's an alternate universe where the Buffyverse just ends at Season 11. As much as I loved S11, that would have sucked and would have been a real sour note on the entire universe.

That said, I don't think it was great. I loved some things (Harmony, Harth, pretty much everything involving the future). I loved what happened to Harth when he gained Slayer powers. I honestly love and respect it, for the most part, but there are a couple things that really irk me, and probably will for the rest of my life.
  1. I love the Georges Jeanty's art, but Jesus, he's not the only one to have worked on Buffy. Hell, Season 12 wasn't just a finale to the Buffyverse proper, it was a finale to everything Dark Horse had been doing for the last two decades! Honestly, how hard would it have been to hire a different artist for each issue? It actually would have drastically improved the quality, seeing as they had very limited time to get the series done. Most importantly though, it would have shown off the rich artistic history of the Buffyverse. My dream would be:
    #1- Jeanty;
    #2- Karl Moline (because of future stuff);
    #3- Cliff Richards (the guy started his career with Buffy, illustrated the best "classic" stories, and is now a fairly big name in the industry);
    #4- Rebekah Isaacs
  2. Keeping Angel and Illyria together is weird and off-putting.
  3. Buffy and Spike should have been together in the end. It's weird and makes no sense that they would randomly break up.
 
Foxy
Foxy
I 100% agree with everything, especially the different artist per issue!

Foxy

I am cookie dough!
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Sineya
I generally disliked s12, but I feel the majority of the issues came from time pressure. I think they wanted to make s12 the same length as s11, but I am pretty sure they were only given a set amount of issues because Boom bought the rights to the comics and after roughly 20 years DarkHorse needed to have some ending at least.

Besides that in the case of the comics, there are always hits and misses and the good outweighs the bad by a ton!

Sadly s12 was part of the bad category, but I do think the ending (even though it was similar to Chosen) is a good one. It ends with them all reasonably happy and moving on with their lives. Is it the best ending? No. But considering the stuff I mentioned earlier I am okay with it.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
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Black Thorn
Keeping Angel and Illyria together is weird and off-putting.
I didn't read more than the first issue of season 12 (or many of the Angel comics) but that is a really odd pairing...
Spike and Wesley both had better chemistry with her.
Buffy and Spike should have been together in the end. It's weird and makes no sense that they would randomly break up.
I wasn't bothered that they broke up, it was just the nature of it that was annoying. Again, this was pure fan service/ wanting Buffy on her own, surely they could have come up with a better reason for them to break up?
 

LeeJones41

Potential
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Aug 18, 2016
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This sounds like a rushed and cheap ending. Sorry. As for whether Buffy ends up with Spike or Angel . . . I honestly don't care anymore. It's obvious that Whedon will never have her choose one over the other. So the whole thing is irrelevant to me.
 

famicommander

Townie
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Dec 26, 2016
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70
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28
I liked it well enough but I wish more characters could have been there for the final battle.

Oz, Riley and Sam, Andrew, Robin Wood, Charles Gunn, Connor, Kate Lockley, Groosalugg, Nina Ash, Laura Weathermill, Betta George, Beck, Gwen Raiden, Giles' aunts. All former members of the Scooby Gang, Team Angel, or Team Spike still living when the climactic battle took place but only Andrew is really accounted for.
 
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