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I am going be honest I have never really like Faith!

DeepBlueJoy

Lion Faced Kitteh
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It's so weird. I would never think to associate the word 'wooden' or 'unconvincing' with ED's portrayal of Faith, even in S3 where she was a newbie compared to all the actors around her, who by that point had their character beats nailed.
To me Faith always added something to an episode even if she was on the periphery; whether its humiliating the bland muffin that was Scott Hope or brawling with a Sisterite before lust-pouncing on Xander she always seems real to me. Hell, by the end of the season she's basically playing Eliza+ since Joss kept on including more ED material for her to work with.

Also the only episode Faith comes across as 'whiny' is Enemies, she's too guarded with her emotions otherwise to spill them over nothing, she is rarely looking for sympathy since she wants people to think that she's having a great time living in her crappy motel.
She always stands in start contrast to other characters who seem to wallow in self-pity.

The only real irritation with her character is, for me, her habit of mouthing off about subjects she doesn't fully understand. It grates...but I can count the number of times she does this on one hand and usually she has an 'in character' reason for doing it, whether its genuine ignorance or trying to get a reaction.
I love Faith. She is a well rounded and appealing, thought provoking character. I just find her early acting stilted in comparison to the others and to her later work. Regardless. I always love her character. Sorry if that was unclear.

Yes, i suppose i am lucky in seeing Faith regardless of the actor. I also see the quality of shakespeare when performed by high school drama clubs. Quality shows. And Eliza rises to it.
 

GothicBuffy

Slayer
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Boston
It took me a full rewatch to actually love Faith. I was always pretty defensive of Buffy (and I liked the idea that she was the only Chosen One, which I changed on over time) so anyone criticizing her annoyed me. I was always sympathetic/empathetic for Faith and so much conflict could have been solved through better communication, (and less scooby interference) but I still found myself disliking her overall the first time I watched the show.

Now that I'm on my third or so rewatch, Faith is right about a lot of things. She's right about finding joy in slaying, about having fun (to an extent). She's also right that there should be different rules for Slayers, and that as Slayers, the amount of people they've saved makes their mistakes a little bit more okay (even though they should have gone to Giles.) I can't blame Faith for being scared and distrustful, though, based on the knowledge we have about her background. She showed that she was capable of change and she was slowly becoming responsive to the people who were trying to help her, until the Council ruined everything.
Plus, I love the Buffy/Faith romantic tension even more now.

The thing that most bothered me the most about her was her full on assault of Xander in Consequences. Xander clearly didn't want to, but she forced herself on him and almost choked im to death. She would have killed/raped him if Angel hadn't stepped in. That's a pretty terrible thing she did.
 

NothingVentured

Potential
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
333
I see Faith from the point of view of Professor Worth. Redemption arc? So what? I'm still dead.
Heh.

I don't think I dislike Faith, but she's a character I dislike talking about. You have Faith on the show as I saw her, an angry entitled young girl with trust issues who is easily lulled to the dark side, but then realized it wasn't the answer, either. She realizes in the end that the people she had a grudge against weren't any better off or happier than she was.

Then you have Fandom's version of Faith, who was right all along and it was all the Scoobies fault and she never really did anything wrong they didn't make her do.
 
Athene
Athene
I mean I wouldn't say Faith had it as good as the scoobies in S3 but I don't blame them I just acknowledge that it sucked and she made the wrong choice.
thetopher
thetopher
Never seen that particular Fandon version here, but I've read awful fan-fics that strongly resemble it.

Faded90

Scooby
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63
Heh.

I don't think I dislike Faith, but she's a character I dislike talking about. You have Faith on the show as I saw her, an angry entitled young girl with trust issues who is easily lulled to the dark side, but then realized it wasn't the answer, either. She realizes in the end that the people she had a grudge against weren't any better off or happier than she was.

Then you have Fandom's version of Faith, who was right all along and it was all the Scoobies fault and she never really did anything wrong they didn't make her do.
I LOVE Faith but I would (mostly) agree with your top paragraph in that certainly is the Faith I watched. I’ve never liked the ‘it was the scoobies fault’, the only thing the scoobies were guilty of was naivity and taking her ‘I’m just living my best life’ act at face value. I do think Buffy particularly really cared and tried - with limited resources, I dare say later season Buffy would know how to help her better, but that’s not S3 Buffy’s fault. I do think Giles could have done better though but it largely fits into his ‘I’m not getting involved’ tactic that he often goes to.

For me people who place all blame at everyone but Faith actually miss the best part of her story which is her taking responsibility. Throughout late S3 Faith is basicallg aiming all of her resentment and anger at Buffy, mostly for things that Buffy can’t control, she can’t give Faith a better Mother, she can’t force her friends to like her more and she can’t just hand over her boyfriends but this is obviously Faith’s deep seated issues that she’s no longer able to (relatively) control. S3 Faith takes no responsibility for anything, it’s a key part of her character. And yet there’s the painful moment in Who Are You when she realises that actually SHE is the bad guy, in her own story no less. She realises she’s not entitled to what she wants, she says to Angel that Buffy ‘went outof her way even though I had no right or reason to expect her to and I screwed her’, it’s the polar opposite of her ‘how dare she go on with her life and her a new boyfriend’ rant to Joyce (the scene with Joyce I genuinely think is the best written and deepest look into Faiths darkest psyche we ever get) and it shows her growth. The same when she tells Buffy ‘I can’t ever make it right’, she’s not entitled to Buffy’s forgiveness and she’s not expecting it

I love her story and arc because once she’s decided not to be bad anymore there’s nothing self indulgent about it, nothing ‘poor me’, there’s no melancholy ‘we were victims too, once upon a time’ . she takes full responsibility because she has to. And I love that!
 

NothingVentured

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333
I LOVE Faith but I would (mostly) agree with your top paragraph in that certainly is the Faith I watched. I’ve never liked the ‘it was the scoobies fault’, the only thing the scoobies were guilty of was naivity and taking her ‘I’m just living my best life’ act at face value. I do think Buffy particularly really cared and tried - with limited resources, I dare say later season Buffy would know how to help her better, but that’s not S3 Buffy’s fault. I do think Giles could have done better though but it largely fits into his ‘I’m not getting involved’ tactic that he often goes to. For me people who place all blame at everyone but Faith actually miss the best part of her story which is her taking responsibility. Throughout late S3 Faith is basicallg aiming all of her resentment and anger at Buffy, mostly for things that Buffy can’t control, she can’t give Faith a better Mother, she can’t force her friends to like her more and she can’t just hand over her boyfriends but this is obviously Faith’s deep seated issues that she’s no longer able to (relatively) control. S3 Faith takes no responsibility for anything, it’s a key part of her character. And yet there’s the painful moment in Who Are You when she realises that actually SHE is the bad guy, in her own story no less. She realises she’s not entitled to what she wants, she says to Angel that Buffy ‘went outof her way even though I had no right or reason to expect her to and I screwed her’, it’s the polar opposite of her ‘how dare she go on with her life and her a new boyfriend’ rant to Joyce (the scene with Joyce I genuinely think is the best written and deepest look into Faiths darkest psyche we ever get) and it shows her growth. The same when she tells Buffy ‘I can’t ever make it right’, she’s not entitled to Buffy’s forgiveness and she’s not expecting it I love her story and arc because once she’s decided not to be bad anymore there’s nothing self indulgent about it, nothing ‘poor me’, there’s no melancholy ‘we were victims too, once upon a time’ . she takes full responsibility because she has to. And I love that!
I've seen it called redemption arc syndrome. I think it's a pretty accurate title for the phenomenon. It happens all the time when a character goes off the rails then recovers.
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
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7,311
Sineya
I LOVE Faith but I would (mostly) agree with your top paragraph in that certainly is the Faith I watched. I’ve never liked the ‘it was the scoobies fault’, the only thing the scoobies were guilty of was naivity and taking her ‘I’m just living my best life’ act at face value. I do think Buffy particularly really cared and tried - with limited resources, I dare say later season Buffy would know how to help her better, but that’s not S3 Buffy’s fault. I do think Giles could have done better though but it largely fits into his ‘I’m not getting involved’ tactic that he often goes to.

For me people who place all blame at everyone but Faith actually miss the best part of her story which is her taking responsibility. Throughout late S3 Faith is basicallg aiming all of her resentment and anger at Buffy, mostly for things that Buffy can’t control, she can’t give Faith a better Mother, she can’t force her friends to like her more and she can’t just hand over her boyfriends but this is obviously Faith’s deep seated issues that she’s no longer able to (relatively) control. S3 Faith takes no responsibility for anything, it’s a key part of her character. And yet there’s the painful moment in Who Are You when she realises that actually SHE is the bad guy, in her own story no less. She realises she’s not entitled to what she wants, she says to Angel that Buffy ‘went outof her way even though I had no right or reason to expect her to and I screwed her’, it’s the polar opposite of her ‘how dare she go on with her life and her a new boyfriend’ rant to Joyce (the scene with Joyce I genuinely think is the best written and deepest look into Faiths darkest psyche we ever get) and it shows her growth. The same when she tells Buffy ‘I can’t ever make it right’, she’s not entitled to Buffy’s forgiveness and she’s not expecting it

I love her story and arc because once she’s decided not to be bad anymore there’s nothing self indulgent about it, nothing ‘poor me’, there’s no melancholy ‘we were victims too, once upon a time’ . she takes full responsibility because she has to. And I love that!
Agreed with most of what you said . But I still think Giles dropped the ball with Faith . He supposed to be watching out for her & doesn't even know where
she lives . Doesn't make sense with the way Kendra was trained & how the Council was .
 

katmobile

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I LOVE Faith but I would (mostly) agree with your top paragraph in that certainly is the Faith I watched. I’ve never liked the ‘it was the scoobies fault’, the only thing the scoobies were guilty of was naivity and taking her ‘I’m just living my best life’ act at face value. I do think Buffy particularly really cared and tried - with limited resources, I dare say later season Buffy would know how to help her better, but that’s not S3 Buffy’s fault. I do think Giles could have done better though but it largely fits into his ‘I’m not getting involved’ tactic that he often goes to.

For me people who place all blame at everyone but Faith actually miss the best part of her story which is her taking responsibility. Throughout late S3 Faith is basicallg aiming all of her resentment and anger at Buffy, mostly for things that Buffy can’t control, she can’t give Faith a better Mother, she can’t force her friends to like her more and she can’t just hand over her boyfriends but this is obviously Faith’s deep seated issues that she’s no longer able to (relatively) control. S3 Faith takes no responsibility for anything, it’s a key part of her character. And yet there’s the painful moment in Who Are You when she realises that actually SHE is the bad guy, in her own story no less. She realises she’s not entitled to what she wants, she says to Angel that Buffy ‘went outof her way even though I had no right or reason to expect her to and I screwed her’, it’s the polar opposite of her ‘how dare she go on with her life and her a new boyfriend’ rant to Joyce (the scene with Joyce I genuinely think is the best written and deepest look into Faiths darkest psyche we ever get) and it shows her growth. The same when she tells Buffy ‘I can’t ever make it right’, she’s not entitled to Buffy’s forgiveness and she’s not expecting it

I love her story and arc because once she’s decided not to be bad anymore there’s nothing self indulgent about it, nothing ‘poor me’, there’s no melancholy ‘we were victims too, once upon a time’ . she takes full responsibility because she has to. And I love that!
Maybe there's not one way to do a redemption arc but many and it's not an either/or. I love me a one and can appreciate many - it's doesn't have to be oneuppersonship. Also Buffy never mistreated Faith in the way she did your non too subtle comparative example - yes the abuse went both ways but she wasn't completely innocent.

Also I find it interesting how when Buffy and Faith are fighting in Sanctuary they are both right - Buffy says I gave you chance after chance and you spat on me and you made me into a victim and Faith have you have no idea what it's like to feel like you have no control over your life or yourself. Both we realise it over time too and start to apply that compassionately.
 
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Faded90

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Maybe there's not one way to do a redemption arc but many and it's not an either/or. I love me a one and can appreciate many - it's doesn't have to be oneuppersonship. Also Buffy never mistreated Faith in the way she did your non too subtle comparative example - yes the abuse went both ways but she wasn't completely innocent.

Also I find it interesting how when Buffy and Faith are fighting in Sanctuary they are both right - Buffy says I gave you chance after chance and you spat on me and you made me into a victim and Faith have you have no idea what it's like to feel like you have no control over your life or yourself. Both we realise it over time too and start to apply that compassionately.
Sorry I didn’t mean it in a ‘one upmanship’ way at all. Probably just didn’t phrase it right, I meant it more in a way that Faith HAS to take full responsibility for her behaviour and I love that. The Faith that’s helping save the world in Chosen is still the same Faith who killed Professor Worth. We understand the soul/no soul issue of course with other redemptions but I like how it’s something that Faith has to find within herself to change that’s all. Just a personal preference. I like the pragnaticness of it.
 
K
katmobile
Ok I can accept that

NothingVentured

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Maybe there's not one way to do a redemption arc but many and it's not an either/or. I love me a one and can appreciate many - it's doesn't have to be oneuppersonship. Also Buffy never mistreated Faith in the way she did your non too subtle comparative example - yes the abuse went both ways but she wasn't completely innocent.

Also I find it interesting how when Buffy and Faith are fighting in Sanctuary they are both right - Buffy says I gave you chance after chance and you spat on me and you made me into a victim and Faith have you have no idea what it's like to feel like you have no control over your life or yourself. Both we realise it over time too and start to apply that compassionately.
I never cared for that comment from Faith. I take it as her still not getting Buffy at all. Faith had more control over her own life than Buffy did. It's fine because her journey really isn't complete yet, but it's a weird thing to say to someone we've seen struggle with people trying to force her into a pigeonhole for 4 years.

I can agree with Giles dropping the ball. I think over the course of the series, it's shown that Giles isn't a particularly good watcher and not in a 'father's love' kind of way. We know Kendra's watcher provided for her, we know Wood's watcher looked out for her child post-death. It's suggested Faith's old watcher helped. It seems as though Giles and Wes are the ones who choose to leave the girls to flounder.
 

Priceless

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Then you have Fandom's version of Faith, who was right all along and it was all the Scoobies fault and she never really did anything wrong they didn't make her do.
I have literally had the argument that if Giles or Joyce had given her a bed she wouldn't have turned bad. Good people aren't good because everyone does everything they say and give them everything they want. Buffy has had a difficult childhood, so has Giles and Xander and Tara and even Dawn, and none of them became a baddie. Good people are good even when the world treats them badly, that's the mark of a truly good person.

I do cut Faith some slack because of her age, and young people are prone to making terrible, decisions without thinking things through. I also like her 'redemption' in Angel, it's good television and good story telling, but the reason she needed redeeming was herself, no one else.
 

Faded90

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I never cared for that comment from Faith. I take it as her still not getting Buffy at all. Faith had more control over her own life than Buffy did. It's fine because her journey really isn't complete yet, but it's a weird thing to say to someone we've seen struggle with people trying to force her into a pigeonhole for 4 years.

I can agree with Giles dropping the ball. I think over the course of the series, it's shown that Giles isn't a particularly good watcher and not in a 'father's love' kind of way. We know Kendra's watcher provided for her, we know Wood's watcher looked out for her child post-death. It's suggested Faith's old watcher helped. It seems as though Giles and Wes are the ones who choose to leave the girls to flounder.
I agree it’s Faith still not ‘getting’ Buffy fully. I don’t think she really does until she’s forced into her position in Empty Places. I think she still idealises Buffy’s life, how can Buffy complain so much when she has the things she has? In S7 she realises that Buffy’s position is not all it’s cracked up to be (Buffy actually envied Faith in S3 in some ways for not having the huge responsibility she does) it’s actually incredibly lonely and Buffy is surrounded by a lot of people who while they do what they can to help can never fully understand the burden of responsibility placed on her and while she’ll get the ‘wow Buffy you’re awesome!’ When things go well they are more than happy to point the finger of blame directly at her. This is something Buffy has accepted by S7 and Faith only really understands this when she’s forced into it. It’s why that scene in End of Days I think is so special

I agree about Giles also, I love him in general but I feel like it’s forgotten how easy he had it in a lot of ways having Buffy. He could train her and pack her back home to her Mother for everything else. It’s a consistent flaw that he struggles to understand her as a young woman at times (understandable of course) but he does have a tendency to almost just look the other way when both girls are deeply troubled
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
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Sineya
I agree it’s Faith still not ‘getting’ Buffy fully. I don’t think she really does until she’s forced into her position in Empty Places.
I might be in the minority by I always figured Faith's comment to Buffy about 'always being in control' was 1) Spot on and 2) Great foreshadowing for Buffy's own fall in S6. Before that Buffy had never allowed herself to totally lose control, or to violently lash out at somebody who is trying to help her (in their own way). Buffy had always held herself to a high standard (which is why, for example Angelus' rampage and Jenny Calendar's death hit her so hard) and in control of herself. She always held herself accountable.
But in S6 Buffy hates herself like Faith hates herself most of the time. And then in S7 Buffy admits to herself (and Holden) that at that low point in her life she didn't want to be helped, or loved or to get better. In S3 Faith felt she had nobody she could trust and she too didn't want to be helped or understood or judged or indeed held accountable in any way for her actions.

Although unlike Faith Buffy had longtime friends and family who could help her.
 
T
thrasherpix
Also interesting to me, Buffy and Faith switch the "I am the Law." In s3, Faith says it to Buffy's distress, in s7 it's the opposite.

Faded90

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I might be in the minority by I always figured Faith's comment to Buffy about 'always being in control' was 1) Spot on and 2) Great foreshadowing for Buffy's own fall in S6. Before that Buffy had never allowed herself to totally lose control, or to violently lash out at somebody who is trying to help her (in their own way). Buffy had always held herself to a high standard (which is why, for example Angelus' rampage and Jenny Calendar's death hit her so hard) and in control of herself. She always held herself accountable.
But in S6 Buffy hates herself like Faith hates herself most of the time. And then in S7 Buffy admits to herself (and Holden) that at that low point in her life she didn't want to be helped, or loved or to get better. In S3 Faith felt she had nobody she could trust and she too didn't want to be helped or understood or judged or indeed held accountable in any way for her actions.

Although unlike Faith Buffy had longtime friends and family who could help her.
I agree, I think there are a LOT of parallels with S3 Faith/S6 Buffy - without Buffy turning ‘evil’ obviously. Self loathing, using sex as an outlet and a way to reclaim a bit of the power they feel they don’t have and not opening up to other people - I think you could also consider Buffy has lost a bit of the trust in her friends after her resurrection. I think the alley scene in Dead Things was absolutely done with the Who ArenYou church scene in mind. The difference like you say is Willow/Xander and Dawn. Shown in Normal Again when after Buffy nearly gets them killing they basically handwave it away with a ‘it’s ok no harm done’ and then reinforced by Dawn in Grave that gives her some hope back in the future
 

NothingVentured

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I might be in the minority by I always figured Faith's comment to Buffy about 'always being in control' was 1) Spot on and 2) Great foreshadowing for Buffy's own fall in S6. Before that Buffy had never allowed herself to totally lose control, or to violently lash out at somebody who is trying to help her (in their own way). Buffy had always held herself to a high standard (which is why, for example Angelus' rampage and Jenny Calendar's death hit her so hard) and in control of herself. She always held herself accountable.
But in S6 Buffy hates herself like Faith hates herself most of the time. And then in S7 Buffy admits to herself (and Holden) that at that low point in her life she didn't want to be helped, or loved or to get better. In S3 Faith felt she had nobody she could trust and she too didn't want to be helped or understood or judged or indeed held accountable in any way for her actions.

Although unlike Faith Buffy had longtime friends and family who could help her.
Faith didn't snap and lose control in her actions. She systematically plotted them. She was absolutely in control, even moreso than Buffy was. It was part of the lifestyle attraction in S3.

Buffy acts in S6 as a complete opposite of Faith. Faith never felt like she didn't deserve her power, quite the opposite. Buffy didn't say she didn't want to be helped or get better. She said she didn't want to be loved because she wanted to be punished like she deserved. Faith on the other hand absolutely did want to be loved as depicted by the Mayor both in S3 and as the First in S7.

The similarities of Buffy and Faith are superficial at best. They are chiralities more than parallels.
 
Athene
Athene
Faith only started plotting after she got into bed with the mayor which is a different thing before that it was loss of control.

thetopher

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Sineya
Faith didn't snap and lose control in her actions.
She snapped in Consequences and definitely loses control. And whilst her time with the Mayor stabilized her for a time when he is gone her downward spiral leads to self-destructive behaviour in Five-By Five.

Faith never felt like she didn't deserve her power, quite the opposite. Buffy didn't say she didn't want to be helped or get better.
I might've misremembered some of what Buffy said but the point still stands that Faith and Buffy both hated themselves and take it out on people who are trying to help them. The parallels are there and they're pretty stark.

She said she didn't want to be loved because she wanted to be punished like she deserved.
And Faith also wanted to be punished, but only after her downfall in S3.
 

NothingVentured

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She snapped in Consequences and definitely loses control. And whilst her time with the Mayor stabilized her for a time when he is gone her downward spiral leads to self-destructive behaviour in Five-By Five.
All of which she was in total control of. She orchestrates to have Buffy blamed. She signed on with the Mayor. She tried to set Angelus loose. She shot Angel with the poisoned arrow. She targeted Buffy with the Mayor's device. She took her body over. She took off and ran. She tortured Wes. All of these were her choices. The only time Faith 'snaps' is in Who Are You. Everything else is all rather premeditated, which I don't think qualifies as 'snapping'.

I might've misremembered some of what Buffy said but the point still stands that Faith and Buffy both hated themselves and take it out on people who are trying to help them. The parallels are there and they're pretty stark.
Buffy took her hatred out on herself because she hated herself. Faith took it out on everyone else because she hated everyone else. The parallels are only there because people seem to forget things. The alley scene and the church scene are the same! Well, no, they say the complete opposite. It's the same with the 'I am the law' speech. Similar words, opposite meanings. Faith hates the things she's done. Buffy hates who she is. That goes all the way back to S2. The idea that Buffy is suddenly depressed in S6 is one of the stranger things fandom has conjured up but then fandom has this penchant for only interrogating Buffy's character in the context of other characters' arcs. I think it's a main character problem since they do it to Angel as well. Anyway, Faith has done terrible things and wants to be loved in spite of them. Buffy has done heroic things and doesn't want to be loved.

And Faith also wanted to be punished, but only after her downfall in S3.
Only after her downfall in S4/S1, long after she gives her little talk about Buffy's life. Even then she didn't really want to be punished, now did she? She only goes to the cops as a last ditch measure.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
Buffy took her hatred out on herself because she hated herself. Faith took it out on everyone else because she hated everyone else.
I mean, I disagree with most of your characterization of Faith but this here, I just think you've missed so much. Faith's self-hatred is there from Revelations, through Enemies and is totally obvious by the time 'Who Are You rolls around. I think you're mistaking anger for hatred.
Agree to disagree and really, whatever your implying I don't forget the bad things a character does to form a narrative or whatever.
 
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