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I don't understand Spuffy

Athene

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But he does do all those things and there are more things that he could choose to try and do, to continue trying to find an 'evil' way to live, that he doesn't. And he didn't have to go to the scoobies in the first place, he had other options that he wasn't even shown to explore (such as stealing blood or trying to hunt animals) if he couldn't sway Harmony to accept him back. Once he knows he can hurt other demons his options just widen, but he always has options and so therefore makes choices. Whilst trying to use the scoobies, he continues to try to be evil as well in fact until he realises that he has feelings for Buffy and then this revelation starts to affect his choices too and plays into his lack of continued attempts to be evil. Otherwise he may have just continued until he finally got his chip out or until Dru turned up to ask him to go with her and he may have taken her up on that if his affections hadn't moved. Every choice that he makes and doesn't make can be looked at to consider the character's motivations and to gain character insight. That he didn't choose to be chipped in the first place doesn't stop that being true. Spike didn't choose to be chipped, Angel didn't choose to be souled, Buffy didn't choose to be the slayer, Faith didn't choose to be a slayer either. But all of their stories are interesting because of seeing how they choose to respond to the circumstances they are put into, how they react, how it changes them and how it doesn't.
He did need the scoobies for protection against the initiative. I'm not saying that Spike never made any choices after being chipped. It's just that the chip is the catalyst in him turning to the good side. Spike didn't make a choice to be evil (he was turned into a vampire) but he also didn't make the choice to be good alone (the chip was what pushed him). If Spike had never been chipped, he would have continued being evil like he's been for hundreds of years. There's nothing to say otherwise.
Faith made a choice to be evil, and then a choice to be good again. She wasn't soulless (so no excuse for being evil) and she wasn't chipped (so nothing forcing her to be good again). Therefore that is Faith's arc and her growth. Spike was pushed into it by the chip. What is an arc if it's just the character getting pushed around by different things that he has no control over.
It's not practical to suggest that Spike could have continued to be evil after he's been chipped. There's too many problems that Spike would encounter (he's not got enough money, demons aren't loyal and could/would turn on Spike any minute).
 
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Stoney

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He did need the scoobies for protection against the initiative. I'm not saying that Spike never made any choices after being chipped. It's just that the chip is the catalyst in him turning to the good side. Spike didn't make a choice to be evil (he was turned into a vampire) but he also didn't make the choice to be good alone (the chip was what pushed him). If Spike had never been chipped, he would have continued being evil like he's been for hundreds of years. There's nothing to say otherwise.
Faith made a choice to be evil, and then a choice to be good again. She wasn't soulless (so no excuse for being evil) and she wasn't chipped (so nothing forcing her to be good again). Therefore that is Faith's arc and her growth. Spike was pushed into it by the chip. What is an arc if it's just the character getting pushed around by different things that he has no control over.
It's not practical to suggest that Spike could have continued to be evil after he's been chipped. There's too many problems that Spike would encounter (he's not got enough money, demons aren't loyal and could/would turn on Spike any minute).
Of course it is practical if someone evil is happy to play Bonny and Clyde with him. Spike never had money evil and unsouled that he 'earned'. Once he can kill demons he can dominate them exactly the same as he used to dominate minions when he was playing boss in S2. Sure he chose to use the scoobies to protect him against the initiative but he could have just left town, there are always choices. He didn't have to go to the scoobies and he didn't have to stick around Sunnydale, he certainly didn't have to stop trying to do evil or stop trying to get the chip out (as I said things he only did stop when he realised his feelings for Buffy).

Perhaps the chip is the catalyst, but you can read his behaviour around Buffy in The Harsh Light of Day, as coherent to him eventually realising he had underlying feelings for her (as it is revealed that Dru believed already). He came back and found a mythical ring to make him invincible and was so determined that she would see him as powerful that he wants to preen/brag about it and doesn't just take advantage of her surprise to just kill her quickly. Returning then in annoyance again once the ring is destroyed can be linked too with his unrealised underlying obsession. This was all there before the chip. The chip forced a change in circumstances for sure, but we can't know what would have happened if he hadn't been chipped and the choices Spike makes around it afterwards are not meaningless to the point where his whole arc isn't about 'him'.

Sure Faith has an arc that includes her choosing evil then good, but it was her being made a slayer that I was referencing, not her general arc. Angel doesn't choose to be souled and that hugely influences his character and the arc that he then is on, to seek redemption caused by being souled. My point in raising this, and Buffy being made the slayer too, is that seeing responses to forced situations is still interesting. Especially so if you can see coherent behaviours before and after that link to choices that are made leading up to and from the event in question. But regardless, you do still gain insight into characters' responses to forced events and can then consider the subsequent developments they experience in the context of the choices they do make afterwards and the ones that they don't.

It feels like we are probably just at the point of circling ourselves and should agree to disagree. :)
 

Athene

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Of course it is practical if someone evil is happy to play Bonny and Clyde with him. Spike never had money evil and unsouled that he 'earned'. Once he can kill demons he can dominate them exactly the same as he used to dominate minions when he was playing boss in S2. Sure he chose to use the scoobies to protect him against the initiative but he could have just left town, there are always choices. He didn't have to go to the scoobies and he didn't have to stick around Sunnydale, he certainly didn't have to stop trying to do evil or stop trying to get the chip out (as I said things he only did stop when he realised his feelings for Buffy).

Perhaps the chip is the catalyst, but you can read his behaviour around Buffy in The Harsh Light of Day, as coherent to him eventually realising he had underlying feelings for her (as it is revealed that Dru believed already). He came back and found a mythical ring to make him invincible and was so determined that she would see him as powerful that he wants to preen/brag about it and doesn't just take advantage of her surprise to just kill her quickly. Returning then in annoyance again once the ring is destroyed can be linked too with his unrealised underlying obsession. This was all there before the chip. The chip forced a change in circumstances for sure, but we can't know what would have happened if he hadn't been chipped and the choices Spike makes around it afterwards are not meaningless to the point where his whole arc isn't about 'him'.

Sure Faith has an arc that includes her choosing evil then good, but it was her being made a slayer that I was referencing, not her general arc. Angel doesn't choose to be souled and that hugely influences his character and the arc that he then is on, to seek redemption caused by being souled. My point in raising this, and Buffy being made the slayer too, is that seeing responses to forced situations is still interesting. Especially so if you can see coherent behaviours before and after that link to choices that are made leading up to and from the event in question. But regardless, you do still gain insight into characters' responses to forced events and can then consider the subsequent developments they experience in the context of the choices they do make afterwards and the ones that they don't.

It feels like we are probably just at the point of circling ourselves and should agree to disagree. :)
Loving Buffy is not a sign of him wanting to be good.
It's just that something happened to make Spike evil and then something happened to make him good. I wanted Spike to change himself instead of having stuff thrown his way to change him. It's like..I can't blame Spike for being evil and I can't credit his goodness to him because it was the chip that started the domino effect that led him to the good side.
I'm not trying to change your opinion though so you're welcome to keep it :) It's good that everyone has different opinions.
 

Stoney

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Loving Buffy is not a sign of him wanting to be good.
It's just that something happened to make Spike evil and then something happened to make him good. I wanted Spike to change himself instead of having stuff thrown his way to change him. It's like..I can't blame Spike for being evil and I can't credit his goodness to him because it was the chip that started the domino effect that led him to the good side.
I'm not trying to change your opinion though so you're welcome to keep it :) It's good that everyone has different opinions.
He didn't want to be good when he was soulless, I don't think he ever did when he was soulless, he just wanted to be what Buffy would want and what satisfied his wants for his own image (to be the romantic suitor in love). Spike chooses to change himself definitively when he went to get his soul, but still that wasn't to be good for goodness sake, it was to be good to be with Buffy, because that was what his character was motivated by. When he is souled, then he wants to walk a different path and is choosing to be good. He is capable of wanting that then. Soulless, nah, he is never motivated to be good for the sake of being good and that is part of the character's truth that his arc does explore, the limitations of being soulless. Wanting him to want to be good for goods sake is wanting him to do something that he inherently isn't capable of. But I still think this in no way invalidates finding his reactions to being chipped as informative of the character, in the same way it is still interesting how Angel responds to being souled despite it being forced on him and how Buffy responds to being made the slayer without being asked to choose it.

I didn't take you as trying to change my point of view, I just don't think we are moving forward really or uncovering new points but seem to be heading towards repeating ourselves. :)
 

Athene

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He didn't want to be good when he was soulless, I don't think he ever did when he was soulless, he just wanted to be what Buffy would want and what satisfied his wants for his own image (to be the romantic suitor in love). Spike chooses to change himself definitively when he went to get his soul, but still that wasn't to be good for goodness sake, it was to be good to be with Buffy, because that was what his character was motivated by. When he is souled, then he wants to walk a different path and is choosing to be good. He is capable of wanting that then. Soulless, nah, he is never motivated to be good for the sake of being good and that is part of the character's truth that his arc does explore, the limitations of being soulless. Wanting him to want to be good for goods sake is wanting him to do something that he inherently isn't capable of. But I still think this in no way invalidates finding his reactions to being chipped as informative of the character, in the same way it is still interesting how Angel responds to being souled despite it being forced on him and how Buffy responds to being made the slayer without being asked to choose it.

I didn't take you as trying to change my point of view, I just don't think we are moving forward really or uncovering new points but seem to be heading towards repeating ourselves. :)
Alright, I can agree to disagree :)
 

RomanticSoul

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W&H offered a means to help defeat The First, it was Buffy's decisions to use it. Just as the Shadow Men offered her a means to help, and it was her decision not to take them up on their offer. The scythe was also a means to help defeat the First. There were lots of things that came together to assist in the war effort, offered from a lot of different sources and it was always Buffy's decision what got used and what did not, and how it was used.
I'm supposed to applaud Buffy for her stupidity and that she won through blind dumb luck? Haha, never going to happen. Just like I'm not going to applaud someone jumping from a cliff onto the rocks below but luckily missing crashing into them.

But in the show Spuffy never got a chance of a real relationship either because of a soul. Firstly because Spike didn't have one, and then when he did neither him or Buffy felt ready to enter into a full relationship. Spuffy didn't get a chance in the show either, and only began to really work in season 10 and 11.
Sorry but you can't pull this one. For you the comics are canon and from all accounts the Spuffy relationship is in it's second Season now and here to stay. You can't say they weren't a couple in the show and never given a chance either and then mention the comics where they have been together for quite a while now. Clearly, they have been given that chance.
 

javidscool

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WOW! what a thread! I'm so sorry everyone, I was thinking about this conversation over the past two days, but I've been so busy that I haven't been able to jump back on the boards. I'm a software engineer in real life and I also teach software engineering at a code academy in Miami at night, so I sometimes get overwhelmed. I'm gonna respond to each and every one of you right now, as you all have been gracious enough to take your time to speak your minds on this thread, and I certainly don't wanna leave anyone hanging. I've certainly learned so much from each and every one of you, and even tho I'm still Team Angel, I have a lot more respect for Team Spike than I used to, when I was confused as to why people would even think about being Team Spike. This is the reason I joined buffy-boards, because you all are so awesome and have so many cool interesting points of view on the buffyverse which we all love, so again, thank you each and every one <3
 
Ok, so this is gonna be a long post. I've finally finished reading what everyone has written and I'm gonna try to respond to everyone as best I can, as well as add my own two cents into the mix. Here goes:

@Priceless said that Angel makes Buffy more insecure, whereas Spike gives her security. I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with this. Angel did the best he could to help Buffy, keep her out of harms way, give her as much inside info and advice as he could, and even stole the codex at risk of his own life in Buffy S1E11 to try to help her. He talked to her in S2E11 about understanding her mother's point of view on her not wanting to be lonely. He was as supportive and helpful as he possibly could've been. Please, PLEASE anyone on this forum show me examples where Angel's specific actions made Buffy insecure, and NOT Buffy's own insecurity. As for Spike giving her security, you must be joking.

@brinkster130 mentioned an issue is finding Spike's story genuine or not, and this is a GREAT point, because I don't. A lot of other people mention this as well.

Let's look at the facts: Spike was an outwardly evil and maniacal person before he got a chip implanted in him, after which he was still maniacal in every way he could be. He could't hurt humans anymore, but he could hurt demons, so that's what he did. Anything he could to throw a punch and beat up somebody, ANYBODY. Then he realized he could also hurt Buffy, which he did as well. He even went to such depraved lengths as to create Buffy-Bot, which no one on this thread has mentioned yet but I feel is EXTREMELY important. He didn't care about Buffy, he just wanted sex, and someone who he had sexual feelings for to do what he wanted. This comes up when Xander and Anya caught Spike and Buffy-Bot boning in Buffy S5E18, but thought it was Buffy. Sure, Spike wants to keep Buffy and Dawn safe, as he does when he lets Glory torture him and doesn't give up any info, but his intentions are't pure, in fact he's even confused by what he wants himself, as the chip is starting to make him question everything.

@white avenger and @Fool for Buffy mention trying to separate Spike's evil deeds from Angel's, and how Spike becomes one of the good guys before getting his soul, an argument later followed up on this thread by @Stoney and @Athene. Again, let's consider some issues before we begin down this train of thought. Everyone in the Buffyverse, and I mean EVERYONE, is put into situations they don't wanna be in: Angel with his curse, Buffy forced to be the slayer and not have a normal life, Spike with his chip, Willow having Tara die in her arms, etc. What we need to look at, what is VERY important to consider, is the TREND of what these characters do when put in these shitty circumstances. I say TREND because every now and then people make mistakes, and do bad things, but nobody is perfect. Willow becoming Dark Willow after Tara got killed wasn't cool. Buffy not withdrawing from her friends in S6 and being sometimes nasty to the potentials in S7 (which caused them to put Faith in charge) wasn't cool either. They make mistakes, but they always make up for them, and they don't have a track record, or TREND, of making shitty choices because Buffy and Willow aren't shitty people. But Spike's trend, on the other hand, is the exact OPPOSITE of this. Before he got the chip he was unhinged, after he got the chip he tried to find as many ways as he could to hurt anyone he could (culminating in the attempted rape of Buffy and then calling her a bitch before riding off to get his soul). And why did he get his soul? For selfish reasons, as has been said before on this thread. Well, what about after he got his soul? He was a great person then. I'm not buying it, and this is something that ALSO hasn't been addressed in this thread so far, but blows a BIIIG hole in Team Spike:

*****He was STILL wearing his Slayer jacket after he got his soul. The jacket he killed Principal Wood's mom to get. Why would you wear a murder jacket after you have a soul, after you know better, after you truly feel the hurt of all the bad things you've done??? Spike doesn't lose this jacket till Angel S5E20, when it was burned off of him in the explosion, and he STILL says in that episode that it was his favorite jacket.***

Spike is a bad boy, always has been, always will be. He's certainly tempered with a soul, but you can still see the personality differences between Angel with a soul and Spike with a soul. Angel can never be with Buffy because of his curse, but what does he do? He goes to LA, starts Angel investigations, and helps people. Angel is a goddamned saint, and he puts his life on the line for other people. He didn't even wanna take money for his services, and only started to do so when Cordelia told him. He feels immensely sorry for what he did as Angelus, and spends ALL of Angel trying to make up for it, to redeem himself, to be good, and to help others not suffer the way he made people suffer in the past, to protect them from evil like his old-self. He has dedicated his life to service, which is the most noble thing ANYONE can do, I don't care what anyone here says. He sees himself as not a selfish individual, the way Spike does, but as a part of the greater whole, as someone who can make a difference in the world. As @Living Dead Boy said, Angel had his soul forced upon him, while Spike had to earn his. Ok, but Spike's intentions were selfish, and Angel turned into a different person and kept at it after he got his soul. he was consistent and pure, whereas Spike is erratic, you don't know WHAT is gonna happen with him next.

And as @GraceK and @Fool for Buffy said eariler, Spike becomes a more interesting character with Buffy, Angel by himself. Well in that logic is the inherent downfall. Co-dependency is not good, and that's what Spike and Buffy were in the beginning of Spuffy, and that brought them both much harm and pain. Angel, on the other hand, FORCED into a life of solitude because of his curse, does the next best thing. Again, we go back to people being put in bad situations and seeing what they do, and Angel GIVES HIS LIFE TO SERVICE. He wasn't selfish, he didn't complain like Spike did, he didn't try to weasel his way outta it. He stepped away from Buffy BECAUSE he loves her so much, because he can't give her what she needs, as he says in Buffy S3E20. He knows what Buffy needs, knows he can never provide it for her, and so gracefully bows out and leaves, turning himself into a goddamn saint in the process. He is the most unselfish man I know, and that's why I am and WILL ALWAYS BE FOREVER TEAM ANGEL!!!
 
Buffy not withdrawing from her friends in S6 and being sometimes nasty to the potentials in S7 (which caused them to put Faith in charge) wasn't cool either.
I meant to say Buffy withdrawing, please take out the "not"
 
Antho
Antho
Really good post !
Octavia
Octavia
Thanks for taking the time, enjoyed the post!
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
kudos on great points!

Stoney

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The BuffyBot shows that Spike isn't interested in just sex from Buffy but wants to be admired by her and appreciated. It matters to him what Buffy's opinion is of him as part of his 'fantasy'. I'm not excusing what he did, it is another illustration of how disconnected he is from most human's standards of acceptability. It is a gross thing to do, but it isn't just about having a sex toy at all.

Spike didn't wear the jacket again after he first became souled. It was left at Buffy's house in Seeing Red, which we know because Xander saw it when he arrived at the house after the attack. So at some point it must have been boxed and returned to Spike after he came back. Leaving it was symbolic of the journey he was about to go on. When he returned he didn't try to get it back and clearly didn't wear it straight away when it was given back to him. We had seen him even trying to change his look/outfit (the blue shirt in Beneath You). It is consistent characterisation to see Spike again trying to find a new image as he wasn't the same within any longer once souled. He doesn't wear the coat again until Get it Done when Buffy complains about him not being as useful anymore without being the fighter he was. He told her he wasn't relishing the fight any longer since becoming souled but she basically said he needed to find a way to be a better fighter again to be useful to the fight. Spike uses the coat to connect to who he was. It isn't great, it is a weakness to need external props to make him feel different aspects of his 'self' and to give him confidence, but it is a consistent aspect of his story, to need to build an external image to create a persona. His bitterness when he loses the jacket in AtS doesn't make sense against the BtVS use of the jacket. What he says about it to Angel is horrible, but I make sense of it by considering their relationship. It fits to their dynamic and rivalry that Spike would feel defensive about what the jacket had come to mean to him, that he wouldn't want to expose his insecurity about being useless in the fight without the external prop. Again, not great behaviour to choose but it makes sense in characterisation that he opts for putting up a front and trying to hide emotional weakness.

We see Spike in S7 very soon after he got his soul when he is trying to settle his responses to it. Yes he isn't stable at first but that is hardly surprising because of adjusting to the soul and the torment that The First is putting him through on top to try and keep him in that basement. He fights to try and be useful, to make a positive impact with his life now. He is really lucky that Buffy is able to support him, can see the person he can become and the difference he can make. She strengthens him and assures him of what he can do and there is no doubt that this helps him in this early stage of adaption. But his decisions are his own and he chooses to help, he chooses to fight and he chooses to sacrifice himself for the greater good. When he returns in AtS he spends a season with Angel and gains guidance again on walking a heroic path. He is lucky again as there is someone who has experience of the specific difficulty of being a souled vampire and he grows more in the season. Angel is pretty cruel to him when he first appears and they both behave shamefully to the other at different points early on. But they end up developing from that early antagonism to mutual respect over the course of the season. Spike is fortunate to have people who can support him through this time. Angel didn't have that but we don't follow his story in the early years of learning to deal with his soul, his main story path isn't about the same journey that Spike's is. We do however see snippets and hear how he returned to his vampire family briefly and how he tried to help people at points and then gave up and withdrew again, how he ended up scavenging for food and then how Whistler came and helped to give him direction. He struggled for a hundred years on his own and made some bad choices along the way. But because I can consider how difficult it must be learning to cope with the mix of guilt, being tormented by memories/voices and also the remaining violent urges from the demon still within him, I don't hold it against him. How much he struggled helps me to appreciate how much Spike benefited from having Buffy and Angel to turn to. But I don't blame Spike for not being instantly stable and for not having clarity and certainty about who he could become at first either. It is clearly an incredibly difficult adjustment to make, somewhat of a continuous struggle, but both vampires choose to put their lives forward to try and do good. They both become heroes and deserve credit for the choice they make to walk that path.

Spike has had a specific point of progress in the comic seasons of finally considering how it isn't healthy to put the weight of his happiness on one person. He saw this and decided to integrate with the gang more completely and this then actually led to him and Buffy openly giving a healthy relationship a go. Spike isn't perfect for sure, but he is on a progressive journey and he does keep striving to be better. But we don't all have to enjoy the same aspects or agree on the characters, mileage varies as they often say.
 
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javidscool
javidscool
I see your point

Priceless

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Sorry but you can't pull this one. For you the comics are canon and from all accounts the Spuffy relationship is in it's second Season now and here to stay. You can't say they weren't a couple in the show and never given a chance either and then mention the comics where they have been together for quite a while now. Clearly, they have been given that chance.
I was only talking about the show because that's what you were talking about, and I know you don't consider the comics canon. On the show Buffy and Spike were never a couple, and I assumed that was pretty much accepted by everyone. They weren't given a chance in the show, and rightly in my opinion, because of the lack of a soul, and then the effect of the soul.
 
I'm supposed to applaud Buffy for her stupidity and that she won through blind dumb luck? Haha, never going to happen. Just like I'm not going to applaud someone jumping from a cliff onto the rocks below but luckily missing crashing into them.
I dont see it as luck, I see as superior decision making :) Buffy decided what to do and what tools to use and how to use them. That's what leadership is, making the right decisions at the right time, when faced with a set of options. She could have asked Angel to stay, but decided not to. She could have asked him to wear the amulet, but didn't. She made the right decisions that won the war, relying on her own intuitive abilities.
 
javidscool
javidscool
wait a minute, I thought the comics ARE canon

javidscool

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I was only talking about the show because that's what you were talking about, and I know you don't consider the comics canon. On the show Buffy and Spike were never a couple, and I assumed that was pretty much accepted by everyone. They weren't given a chance in the show, and rightly in my opinion, because of the lack of a soul, and then the effect of the soul.
 


I dont see it as luck, I see as superior decision making :) Buffy decided what to do and what tools to use and how to use them. That's what leadership is, making the right decisions at the right time, when faced with a set of options. She could have asked Angel to stay, but decided not to. She could have asked him to wear the amulet, but didn't. She made the right decisions that won the war, relying on her own intuitive abilities.
wait a minute, the comics ARE canon @RomanticSoul, some were written by Joss himself, and all are overseen by him...how can you say they're not?

From Wikipedia:

"This is an overview of what has been dubbed official Buffyverse canon by series creator Joss Whedon:

 
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white avenger

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Spike uses the coat to connect to who he was. It isn't great, it is a weakness to need external props to make him feel different aspects of his 'self' and to give him confidence, but it is a consistent aspect of his story, to need to build an external image to create a persona.
It might also be pointed out that Spike didn't smoke in Season 7 until he put the coat on, and smoking was another part of the soulless Spike persona.

As for his wearing Nikki Wood's coat again after regaining his soul, is that a whole lot different from Angel continuing to live in the mansion, Angelus' headquarters during his attempt to destroy the world in Season 2?

If we are supposed to condemn Spike for wearing that coat, because of how he originally got it, why don't we also condemn him for continuing to go by the name that he supposedly earned because he liked to drive railroad spikes through his victims' heads? But, if we condemn him for that, shouldn't we do the same for Angel, who continues to go by a variant of the name that he earned as a vampire (the monster with the "angelic" face)?

(Incidentally, the earliest time that we see Spike wearing a coat like that is in the flashback to World War 2 in "Why We Fight," in Season 5 of "Angel." Wouldn't it be an ironic twist if that was actually the same coat that Nikki's Watcher had somehow come into possession of after the submarine was recovered, and Spike had just been retrieving what was originally his own coat in the first place? If that was true, then the question might be, "Why was an African American Slayer running around New York City wearing a Nazi Gestapo coat?")

Regardless of the coat's origins, by Season 7 it is considered to be an integral part of Spike's persona, just like the bleached hair, the hair gel, and the silver Zippo lighter, (which he no doubt took from another of his victims at some point, probably the same one who was the original owner of his 1959 Desoto). In order to be the "old Spike, the one who almost killed me when we first met," that Buffy goaded him into becoming once again. I think that it is significant to point out that he apparently knew where it was ever since he returned to Sunnydale, but didn't put it back on until he felt that he needed to, not as much a trophy as a suit of figurative armor.

For all we know, every stitch of clothing that either Spike or Angel ever wore could have originally been the property of one of their victims, as well as any money that they might have had to spent. Maybe even the hair gel that both vampires used was taken from someone they killed. All that it would require would be for some writer to incorporate it into a story.
 

javidscool

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For all we know, every stitch of clothing that either Spike or Angel ever wore could have originally been the property of one of their victims, as well as any money that they might have had to spent. Maybe even the hair gel that both vampires used was taken from someone they killed. All that it would require would be for some writer to incorporate it into a story.
Ok, now this, and the rest of your post, is a dodge, and not a fair one to make. That coat is not just any coat, it represents something. It's a trophy, Spike's trophy, for murdering a slayer, and leaving her little boy orphaned in the process. Spike brags about that coat almost every chance he gets, because it's proof of his murderous superiority to anybody, especially a slayer, who crosses his path. It's how he swings his dick around, so to speak. No other vamp in the Buffy-verse really does this to the extent that Spike does. Angel doesn't have an article of clothing, or any other trophy for that matter, that comes close to meaning anything like that, and neither does Drusilla, Darla, hell, even the Master himself.

This is the reason why I condemn Spike for wearing it: he had a CHANCE to change, to change his TREND, as I was saying previously, and didn't go thru with it, for whatever reason Team Spike wants to bring up (it's a weakness, an external prop he shouldn't use, Buffy told him to shape up, etc.) Fact is, he didn't have to pull himself together by putting it back on. He could've used a more morally uplifting way to do so (he DOES have a soul now, after all). In fact, he had a GREAT opportunity to make amends, to do the honorable thing, which would've been to either place the coat on top of Principal Wood's mom's grave, or give the coat back to Principal Wood himself and apologize for what he did. But NO, he didn't do that! He wore the coat again, knowing how wrong it was, because he has a soul now, knowing where it came from, and went right on punching and kicking. What the coat represents gives him the power to fight, and THAT is what's wrong. Where is this power coming from? Murder, mayhem, the old, soulless ways of doing things, which should NOT be his guiding light anymore, because he now has a soul, and has run outta excuses. He had the opportunity to rise above that, and did not, and that makes him simply despicable to me.
 
(Incidentally, the earliest time that we see Spike wearing a coat like that is in the flashback to World War 2 in "Why We Fight," in Season 5 of "Angel." Wouldn't it be an ironic twist if that was actually the same coat that Nikki's Watcher had somehow come into possession of after the submarine was recovered, and Spike had just been retrieving what was originally his own coat in the first place? If that was true, then the question might be, "Why was an African American Slayer running around New York City wearing a Nazi Gestapo coat?")
as for this, I think it's just a simple continuity error lol...nbd
 
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Priceless

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wait a minute, the comics ARE canon @RomanticSoul, some were written by Joss himself, and all are overseen by him...how can you say they're not?

From Wikipedia:

"This is an overview of what has been dubbed official Buffyverse canon by series creator Joss Whedon:

Hope I'm not speaking out of turn here @RomanticSoul? I am sure I've read people on this board who don't see the comics as fully canon. I'm actually a big fan of the comics, but I try not discuss what happens in the comics with people who don't read them, as it just gets confusing.
 

thrasherpix

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he had a GREAT opportunity to make amends, to do the honorable thing, which would've been to either place the coat on top of Principal Wood's mom's grave, or give the coat back to Principal Wood himself and apologize for what he did.
Just imagining this....gods, such a scene could've instantly made (soulled) Spike a favorite character for me. Not in just someone who is entertaining, but...for the first time (for me)...someone to truly admire and root for. The writers could've done so much with the other characters (who see this true change) as well, and may have turned a train wreck of season 7 into something truly beautiful and inspiring, but unfortunately (for me anyway) the series had truly lost its magic and its direction by season 7.
 

RomanticSoul

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I dont see it as luck, I see as superior decision making :) Buffy decided what to do and what tools to use and how to use them. That's what leadership is, making the right decisions at the right time, when faced with a set of options. She could have asked Angel to stay, but decided not to. She could have asked him to wear the amulet, but didn't. She made the right decisions that won the war, relying on her own intuitive abilities.
What decision making? Taking a dozen barely trained girls, armed with nothing but basic weapons into an unknown battle isn't a genius plan, that's deliberate suicide. Why wait until AFTER opening the seal for the activation spell? Buffy didn't even know if Willow would actually succeed. Why not rip the roof off the school and flood the area with sunlight? Why not call Riley who has shown he could there in a flash and bring with him all kinds of neat weaponry (flamethrowers, napalm bombs etc.). Why send Angel away who at that point is CEO of W&H with access to all kinds of supernatural beings and tools. The only reason most of them survived was W&H's little trinket.

wait a minute, the comics ARE canon @RomanticSoul, some were written by Joss himself, and all are overseen by him...how can you say they're not?
I can say so because Joss said so. Yes, Joss has said they are canon. But he also said he would ignore the comics if he ever got a live project off the ground again. We all know a live project is never going to happen but that doesn't matter. It's his willingness to discard them at all and therefor that 'canon'. Joss has to pick one, either they are canon no matter what happens in the future or they are not.

This is the reason why I condemn Spike for wearing it: he had a CHANCE to change, to change his TREND, as I was saying previously, and didn't go thru with it, for whatever reason Team Spike wants to bring up (it's a weakness, an external prop he shouldn't use, Buffy told him to shape up, etc.) Fact is, he didn't have to pull himself together by putting it back on. He could've used a more morally uplifting way to do so (he DOES have a soul now, after all). In fact, he had a GREAT opportunity to make amends, to do the honorable thing, which would've been to either place the coat on top of Principal Wood's mom's grave, or give the coat back to Principal Wood himself and apologize for what he did. But NO, he didn't do that! He wore the coat again, knowing how wrong it was, because he has a soul now, knowing where it came from, and went right on punching and kicking. What the coat represents gives him the power to fight, and THAT is what's wrong. Where is this power coming from? Murder, mayhem, the old, soulless ways of doing things, which should NOT be his guiding light anymore, because he now has a soul, and has run outta excuses. He had the opportunity to rise above that, and did not, and that makes him simply despicable to me.
Spike had a chance to show his shiny new soul that supposedly makes him a better man in his dealings with Wood and he didn't. He shouldn't let Wood kill him because souled Spike didn't kill Wood's mother. But Spike didn't have destroy Wood's memories of his mother or threaten to kill Wood if he ever looked at him wrong. He could have used his soul to show some empathy for someone who isn't Buffy. He could have tried to make Wood understand about the difference between souled and unsouled. But instead soulled Spike showed that he's a douchebag even with the soul. Which is true of us humans who have choice due to the soul, some are just assholes. A soul doesn't automatically make someone good.
 

javidscool

My friends call me based Giles
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Just imagining this....gods, such a scene could've instantly made (soulled) Spike a favorite character for me. Not in just someone who is entertaining, but...for the first time (for me)...someone to truly admire and root for. The writers could've done so much with the other characters (who see this true change) as well, and may have turned a train wreck of season 7 into something truly beautiful and inspiring, but unfortunately (for me anyway) the series had truly lost its magic and its direction by season 7.
Wow I love season 7, but a lot of people see it the same way you do. What are some of your biggest issues with season 7?
 
Why send Angel away who at that point is CEO of W&H with access to all kinds of supernatural beings and tools. The only reason most of them survived was W&H's little trinket.
I don't believe he was CEO yet. Did he just get that title? Cause I believe season 7 of Buffy is season 4 of Angel, and he gets the keys to W&H at the very end.
 
Spike had a chance to show his shiny new soul that supposedly makes him a better man in his dealings with Wood and he didn't. He shouldn't let Wood kill him because souled Spike didn't kill Wood's mother. But Spike didn't have destroy Wood's memories of his mother or threaten to kill Wood if he ever looked at him wrong. He could have used his soul to show some empathy for someone who isn't Buffy. He could have tried to make Wood understand about the difference between souled and unsouled. But instead soulled Spike showed that he's a douchebag even with the soul. Which is true of us humans who have choice due to the soul, some are just assholes. A soul doesn't automatically make someone good.
and this proves my point! Spike is an asshole, which is why I'm not Team Spike but Team Angel, as Angel souled, as I've said before, is a saint, and a much better person to be in a relationship with, even though Angel can never be in a relationship :(
 
I can say so because Joss said so. Yes, Joss has said they are canon. But he also said he would ignore the comics if he ever got a live project off the ground again. We all know a live project is never going to happen but that doesn't matter. It's his willingness to discard them at all and therefor that 'canon'. Joss has to pick one, either they are canon no matter what happens in the future or they are not.
Ok, I didn't know this. It's honestly strange to me that Joss would flip-flop so much on this issue. I really don't believe he would throw everything out and start fresh, nor necessarily use all the comics and be exactly in line with where they are now, because the people who aren't Buffy fans, or have never heard of Buffy at all (I know, that is CRAZY to all of us), would then be totally lost. I'm fairly confident he would take a middle-ground approach, putting some stuff in from the comics to please the fan-base who have kept up with the Buffy-verse this whole time, and also taking things back some for the potential new fans, or old fans who never read the comics for one reason or another, that a new live action project would bring. And this would be understandable to all of us I feel.
 

Miditron

A man with a Seabreeze
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I personally like the drama of both relationships. But I also think they were in between fillers for the next big bad coming to town. In the end with Buffy. You can gurantee one heck of a face off when it comes to the Big Bad. But now that the show itself has ended I am just thankful I can watch 7 seasons over again and it still mean something personal.
 

RomanticSoul

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Wow I love season 7, but a lot of people see it the same way you do. What are some of your biggest issues with season 7?
I'm not @thrasherpix but the easier question would be what's good in S7. That's a very short list. Listing the bad might take a day and a novel length post.

I don't believe he was CEO yet. Did he just get that title? Cause I believe season 7 of Buffy is season 4 of Angel, and he gets the keys to W&H at the very end.
He was CEO before he left for Sunnydale, therefor he had the keys to the castle already.

and this proves my point! Spike is an asshole, which is why I'm not Team Spike but Team Angel, as Angel souled, as I've said before, is a saint, and a much better person to be in a relationship with, even though Angel can never be in a relationship :(
No, no, no. I like Angel fine and don't care much for Spike but Angel is NOT a saint. He has made a lot of morally wrong decisions and plenty questionable choices since he got his soul back. But that just makes him a flawed and complex character. Saints have no flaws and that's not Angel.

Ok, I didn't know this. It's honestly strange to me that Joss would flip-flop so much on this issue.
Because that's Joss in a nutshell. He flip flops like crazy about so many things. Sometimes it depends on what audience he is speaking to. But most of the time he just wants to have his cake and eat it too. That's why he strung shippers along right to the end of BtVS. 'Sh*t or get off the pot' or 'stop sitting on the fence is what a lot people used to say about Joss at the end of S7.
 
javidscool
javidscool
you are right, Angel is not a saint...I probably shouldn't have used that word lmao
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