I don't understand Spuffy

[Stoney]

It's a trophy, Spike's trophy, for murdering a slayer, and leaving her little boy orphaned in the process. Spike brags about that coat almost every chance he gets, because it's proof of his murderous superiority to anybody, especially a slayer, who crosses his path. It's how he swings his dick around, so to speak. No other vamp in the Buffy-verse really does this to the extent that Spike does. Angel doesn't have an article of clothing, or any other trophy for that matter, that comes close to meaning anything like that, and neither does Drusilla, Darla, hell, even the Master himself.

Dru was Angel's trophy, 'his masterpiece', and one that he doesn't choose to end when he can, despite knowing that she will go on to kill more innocent people. There are a lot of occasions on both shows that vampires that they 'know' are allowed to live because of previous relationships/connections to them, either as vampires or who they were as humans. It never looks good, particularly with Spike, Dru and Harmony repeatedly being given passes, but it is consistent and a failing committed by many characters.

The coat was Spike's trophy for murdering Nikki, I'm not denying that at all, but you can't dismiss that he was choosing to not wear it at the start of S7 and that change in himself was directly linked to not relishing the fight any longer once souled. The coat was then used to reconnect to the violence in himself specifically to be useful in the fight. Yes, he had the chance to give the coat to Robin or apologise to Robin, but the guy had just violated Spike in retaliation by deliberately triggering him to override the person that he had become and access the monster again to fight. Robin knew already there was a meaningful separation which is why he told Spike he didn't want to fight him, he wanted to fight the monster that had killed his mother. Now I'm not saying I don't understand Robin's anger and hurt, I really do, but I also understand Spike's anger in that moment after he regains control. Having said that, I don't think he should have been as callous as he was, he took it too far, and although they both weren't treating the other fairly, it was Robin's grief over Spike having murdered his mother that was upsetting him, so Spike should have been more lenient and left the personal out of his attack. But neither of them comes out of the exchange well.

This is the reason why I condemn Spike for wearing it: he had a CHANCE to change, to change his TREND, as I was saying previously, and didn't go thru with it, for whatever reason Team Spike wants to bring up (it's a weakness, an external prop he shouldn't use, Buffy told him to shape up, etc.) Fact is, he didn't have to pull himself together by putting it back on. He could've used a more morally uplifting way to do so (he DOES have a soul now, after all). In fact, he had a GREAT opportunity to make amends, to do the honorable thing, which would've been to either place the coat on top of Principal Wood's mom's grave, or give the coat back to Principal Wood himself and apologize for what he did. But NO, he didn't do that! He wore the coat again, knowing how wrong it was, because he has a soul now, knowing where it came from, and went right on punching and kicking. What the coat represents gives him the power to fight, and THAT is what's wrong. Where is this power coming from? Murder, mayhem, the old, soulless ways of doing things, which should NOT be his guiding light anymore, because he now has a soul, and has run outta excuses. He had the opportunity to rise above that, and did not, and that makes him simply despicable to me.

But the point in the episode is putting the mission above your emotions. Spike didn't want to wear the coat any more and have that connection with his murderous past, and he certainly wasn't happy about being told that his new souled self wasn't what was needed in the fight, but he did it to benefit the greater good. The message is deliberately an uncomfortable one here because the notion of putting anything/everything second to the mission is going to be uncomfortable and that is the point to be honest. It may well take characters places that they don't like and that don't make them look good but they aren't the priority. The episode deliberately aligns Spike's choice with both Buffy's request to him to be that person again despite his feelings on the matter, despite his soul, and also with Nikki's choice to go out at night and put herself on the line to fight despite having Robin - "the mission is what matters".

The meaning of the coat isn't his guiding light. Buffy, the slayer, told him that he needed to reconnect with the person he used to be and he did it in the way that he knows how. It wasn't something to work on gradually and create a new image to replace that could hold the same meaning as the old for him, it was an instruction to put on his big boy pants right now and get over the fact that he didn't want to be that person any longer and learn to be able to pull that side of himself to the fore as damn well needed. Now I understand why people don't like it, but it is the point of the story and the connection to the slayers he now has souled and fighting the good fight, what matters is the mission not the person. Now if you don't really want to consider in-story reasons that the writers (not 'team spike' ) created around the meaning of the coat and the push for Spike to wear it again, or perhaps you can accept an in-story reason but just dislike it anyway, that is of course completely your call. I know that I tend to lean more heavily on looking to the probable intention of the creators/writers than some fans do, turning to what could have been meant by the writing choices that were made, to increase character/plot understanding. As always, your mileage may vary, for others the stance of 'the author is dead' is the preferred point of view.

The comics are canon until Joss says that they aren't. He is choosing to keep having these stories written and not overwrite them with a live project. Until Joss actually declares the comics are no longer canon, what other projects he may or may not do aren't key. The canon comics are quite simply exactly that until then, and are Joss' current, active voice on the direction of the verse and its characters.

and this proves my point! Spike is an asshole, which is why I'm not Team Spike but Team Angel, as Angel souled, as I've said before, is a saint, and a much better person to be in a relationship with, even though Angel can never be in a relationship

Spike can be an asshole but that isn't the absolute and only parameters of his person. He can make really bad calls and be deliberately cruel at times that are unnecessary. He has issues with being nasty/defensive and falls to this behaviour far too often, but he isn't alone in making mistakes and not holding his hands up to them. I don't understand why you keep saying Angel is a saint when he has made many dark choices with his soul perfectly in place. I'm not condemning him for the murders and the cruelty that he has displayed over the years because I can accept that he isn't flawless and he struggles with an internal balance of soul/demon which must be immensely difficult. Characters get it wrong, but we look to the overall path that they choose to walk for their intent and their abilities to keep developing and progressing themselves. Both vampires put themselves on the line time and again to help others and be heroic. They will no doubt both get it right and wrong many times again.

 

[javidscool]

No, no, no. I like Angel fine and don't care much for Spike but Angel is NOT a saint. He has made a lot of morally wrong decisions and plenty questionable choices since he got his soul back. But that just makes him a flawed and complex character. Saints have no flaws and that's not Angel.

yes, you're right, Angel is certainly NOT a saint in the traditional sense...I meant saint in that he was willing to give his life to service and help others. he's NOT perfect either, and has definitely made questionable decisions, but, as I've said previously, no one in the Buffy-verse is perfect or does everything right, but at least Angel has a good heart and tries his best with the emotional stability he has at the time.

I'm not @thrasherpix but the easier question would be what's good in S7. That's a very short list. Listing the bad might take a day and a novel length post.

wow, I personally loved the story of the first, the uber vamps, Willow and Giles' complicated relationship, the Principal Wood story was INSANE (although I guessed it early on lol), with one of my favorite scenes in TV history, for ANY show I've seen, being Principal Wood locking Spike in the warehouse with crosses all around and played the song that made Spike insane...then you have the potentials and the deeper understanding of slayer lore that really impressed me, the ending monologue by Buffy that anyone who could be a slayer IS a slayer made me genuinely cry, as well as Buffy turning the Buffy-verse around by adding sooo many new slayers, Buffy's difficulty in corralling the potentials and Faith and her jockeying for position, even Spike's transformation into a better person was very interesting to me as well (even though, as I've stated before, I don't really care for Spike so much), and the ending with Sunnydale getting totally destroyed...Season 7 was fantastic to me!

@RomanticSoul can you just name maybe the top 3-5 things (in no order) that you didn't like about season 7??
 

Spike can be an asshole but that isn't the absolute and only parameters of his person. He can make really bad calls and be deliberately cruel at times that are unnecessary. He has issues with being nasty/defensive and falls to this behaviour far too often, but he isn't alone in making mistakes and not holding his hands up to them. I don't understand why you keep saying Angel is a saint when he has made many dark choices with his soul perfectly in place. I'm not condemning him for the murders and the cruelty that he has displayed over the years because I can accept that he isn't flawless and he struggles with an internal balance of soul/demon which must be immensely difficult. Characters get it wrong, but we look to the overall path that they choose to walk for their intent and their abilities to keep developing and progressing themselves. Both vampires put themselves on the line time and again to help others and be heroic. They will no doubt both get it right and wrong many times again.

yes, again let me clarify myself on this point: ANGEL IS NOT PERFECT...he's not a saint in the strict traditional sense of the word. Even with a soul, he makes bad choices, but his heart is certainly in the right place, and that is redemption for all his bad deeds as Angelus, his commitment to giving himself to service and helping people against the evil he used to be, and trying to create a more fair and peaceful world. He made a HUUUUUUUGE mistake joining with W&H, something he admits in the comics, and I knew that would come back to bite him, but I wanted to see him learn his lesson, and see where his character development and the direction of the story would take him and Angel Investigations, and I was pretty blown away at how much learning and growing everyone did on Angel S5...also, we need to take into account Angel's many problems at the time, Connor trying to kill people and holding them hostage, W&H's resources that Angel and his team could use for good, etc. again, it was the WRONG decision, but I can see why Angel made it, and the whole experience taught him A LOT, so it enhanced his character and his growth, ultimately
 

Willow and Giles' complicated relationship

ok, I don't mean romantic relationship here, obviously, just how they went back and forth with each other, with Giles trying to help Willow and Willow and Giles eventualy getting into pretty intense arguments

 

[RomanticSoul]

Dru was Angel's trophy, 'his masterpiece', and one that he doesn't choose to end when he can, despite knowing that she will go on to kill more innocent people.

Dru is Angelus' trophy, his perfect work of art. Not Angel's. When does Angel ever treat Dru like a trophy. Seriously? And they have made it clear as far back as S2 BtVS that Dru is one of the people Angel felt the most guilt about having hurt. He had already killed her once and found himself unable to do it again. While it's not morally correct I sort of understand his feelings there. Darla however is a different matter. But then Angel wouldn't have been allowed to kill certain vampires anyway because they all wore impenetrable plot armor. Same reason why Buffy is not allowed to kill Spike, Dru and Harmony.

But the point in the episode is putting the mission above your emotions. Spike didn't want to wear the coat any more and have that connection with his murderous past, and he certainly wasn't happy about being told that his new souled self wasn't what was needed in the fight, but he did it to benefit the greater good. The message is deliberately an uncomfortable one here because the notion of putting anything/everything second to the mission is going to be uncomfortable and that is the point to be honest. It may well take characters places that they don't like and that don't make them look good but they aren't the priority.

If you have to be someone you are not, especially when it means turning evil, then it's meaningless. If you can't find the motivation within yourself, from within the person you are right now, then you have no place in the fight anyway. You should never be asked to be someone you don't want to be. Buffy saved the world before by just being Buffy. I don't see why Spike has to be someone he isn't when throughout the show people have done fine beating the bad guys by just being themselves.

The episode deliberately aligns Spike's choice with both Buffy's request to him to be that person again despite his feelings on the matter, despite his soul, and also with Nikki's choice to go out at night and put herself on the line to fight despite having Robin - "the mission is what matters".

Those two aren't even remotely the same. Nikki had no choice. The only way Nikki could have stopped being a slayer was to die. If she had stopped slaying people would have died. Spike's comment that Nikki should have just stopped being a slayer if she didn't want to get killed was utterly stupid. That's something you can't just stop being. Never mind that it wouldn't have mattered anyway since Spike deliberately sought her out and hunted her down for sport. Spike had a choice to be whatever he wanted, Nikki didn't.

The meaning of the coat isn't his guiding light. Buffy, the slayer, told him that he needed to reconnect with the person he used to be and he did it in the way that he knows how. It wasn't something to work on gradually and create a new image to replace that could hold the same meaning as the old for him, it was an instruction to put on his big boy pants right now and get over the fact that he didn't want to be that person any longer and learn to be able to pull that side of himself to the fore as damn well needed.

Buffy can't ask of Spike what she herself refuses to do. She is nothing but a giant hypocrite. She can't ask Spike to turn into someone he doesn't want to be, his doubts/progression be damned. She refused the additional power of the shadow men.

However it is in line with the one of the themes of the Season. It's not evil if women force/ask men or other women to do something even if it's uncomfortable or morally wrong and soul-destroying for that person (Buffy with Spike and Willow and the mass rape of thousand of girls) but it's evil when men do it (Shadowmen with Buffy/First Slayer). Oh, you gotta love feminism (/sark).

And quite frankly if someone needs a piece of clothing to find motivation in themselves to man-up then that's pathetic. All the other men in Buffy's life have managed to do that just that because they loved her (Xander, Giles, Riley, Angel). Apparently loving Buffy and wanting to help her out/see that she survives wasn't enough for Spike. He needed his big boy pants for that (so to speak).

The comics are canon until Joss says that they aren't.

Which he has already done.

@RomanticSoul can you just name maybe the top 3-5 things (in no order) that you didn't like about season 7??

Way too many. If you had asked me to name 3-5 things I did like that would have been easier. Thought I would be hard pressed to find a total of 5.

 

[Stoney]

Dru is Angelus' trophy, his perfect work of art. Not Angel's.

I don't always use the 'us' when referring to Angel unsouled, like some of the characters in the show in fact don't always. I wasn't saying that Angel-souled treats Dru like a trophy I was purely raising her in response to the statement that no other vampires were seen to have trophies when Dru's creation can be seen as such.

That Angel hasn't dusted her since becoming souled was really a separate point that these connections don't vanish and become emotionally void for them. His guilt and emotional connection to Dru affects him souled in different ways, but I understand how it can still and why it would be incredibly difficult for him. Spike's character is more abrasive and defensive over such things and I can see why it is harder for some fans to be as understanding towards him when he will present a defensive front to most other characters over his past and prefers to keep his focus on the future and what he can do now rather than the guilt of his unsouled actions. But the coat issue is deliberately explored in S7 and not only is his discomfort with it established but exactly why he retrieves it.

He had already killed her once and found himself unable to do it again. While it's not morally correct I sort of understand his feelings there.

Yes me too, which is why I said that character histories with the vampires/humans affects their abilities to dust them and I can accept/understand that. But sure, it is in great part plot armour on many occasions too, especially with Spike.

If you have to be someone you are not, especially when it means turning evil, then it's meaningless. If you can't find the motivation within yourself, from within the person you are right now, then you have no place in the fight anyway. You should never be asked to be someone you don't want to be. Buffy saved the world before by just being Buffy. I don't see why Spike has to be someone he isn't when throughout the show people have done fine beating the bad guys by just being themselves.

Because he is an individual so how he handles the situations is specific to him, and Buffy did ask this of him. He is only just souled and is really struggling with balancing the demon/soul and this is his way of coping with being violent in a way he isn't comfortable with being any longer but is being told is necessary. Told that by someone whose experience and status as a warrior for good he respects and defers to. Trying to meet that isn't 'evil', he is trying to access a side of himself that he is finding tough to reconcile with. Angel had a hundred years to figure some of these things out and still also finds it hard to balance sometimes. I don't hold it against Spike for needing something to feel separation to who he was and what he did unsouled, but at the same time needing it to be able to be that hard again through using that connection. It isn't the best way to handle it, he is unnecessarily cruel to Robin, but it is the point of the 'the mission is what matters' mantra. He isn't wanting to be like that any more, but he is doing so for the greater good in the way that he can find to.

Those two aren't even remotely the same. Nikki had no choice. The only way Nikki could have stopped being a slayer was to die. If she had stopped slaying people would have died. Spike's comment that Nikki should have just stopped being a slayer if she didn't want to get killed was utterly stupid. That's something you can't just stop being. Never mind that it wouldn't have mattered anyway since Spike deliberately sought her out and hunted her down for sport. Spike had a choice to be whatever he wanted, Nikki didn't.

No Nikki didn't choose to be the slayer but she could have chosen to not take the duty on, to not act on it. That a slayer is chosen by fate/chance without any choice in the matter and is destined to die young fighting every night is unbelievably tough. Buffy's struggle in S1 with being 'fated' to die really touches on this. They are asked to put the mission/duty above their own lives/wants/aspirations once they are chosen and that is the hard truth of being 'chosen'. Spike is being asked to put aside his own choice to not connect to the violence in himself any more because he will be better able to serve the mission if he does. There are similarities in that.

In S9 when Buffy goes to speak to Robin about being the child of a slayer we see flashbacks that show Nikki did have the option to leave the duty behind as her watcher tried to help her, to keep her pregnancy from the council and cover for her in her duty. But Nikki chose to patrol and Robin talks again of how his mum put the mission first. I think Nikki is choosing to put personal matters aside for serving the mission, for protecting people and being the slayer and it is intentional that this reflects to Spike's choice to put on the coat in the episode when he no longer wants to wear it once souled, and as he has been specifically shown to choose not to up until this point. Sure you don't have to agree, but I think it is very clear that the reflection of not putting yourself first, putting your 'self' to one side and doing what serves the greater good, is very intentionally there to see.

Buffy can't ask of Spike what she herself refuses to do. She is nothing but a giant hypocrite. She can't ask Spike to turn into someone he doesn't want to be, his doubts/progression be damned. She refused the additional power of the shadow men.

But she does, and Spike didn't have to do it but he chose to for the mission.

However it is in line with the one of the themes of the Season. It's not evil if women force/ask men or other women to do something even if it's uncomfortable or morally wrong and soul-destroying for that person (Buffy with Spike and Willow and the mass rape of thousand of girls) but it's evil when men do it (Shadowmen with Buffy/First Slayer). Oh, you gotta love feminism (/sark).

Hmmm, yes, I've never liked that aspect of the Chosen spell tbh. :s

And quite frankly if someone needs a piece of clothing to find motivation in themselves to man-up then that's pathetic. All the other men in Buffy's life have managed to do that just that because they loved her (Xander, Giles, Riley, Angel). Apparently loving Buffy and wanting to help her out/see that she survives wasn't enough for Spike. He needed his big boy pants for that (so to speak).

It isn't just manning up, it is being someone that not only do you not want to be any longer, but is at the same time a side of yourself that you are struggling with dealing with the memories of having been, and also having a side within you that is still that in the demon too. It is complex and Spike is very early on in his time souled to be able to manage it all well. He does what he thinks he needs to put the mission before his personal choice to keep distance from that side of himself. His need for outward 'costumes' to support who he is or who he wants to be is a personal weakness. But Spike's identity issues are one of the most layered parts of his characterisation.

And again, this is really early for him in being souled and how he tries to cope isn't always the best. He certainly behaves terribly at points in AtS 5 too when he and Angel bring out some of the worst in each other despite being best able to understand and support each other in some ways too. This isn't a side of Angel's journey that we see very much of, whereas Spike's arc is specifically about the journey. But we do know that Angel too struggled hugely when he was early in being souled. Spike is lucky to have guidance and support in both Angel and Buffy that Angel didn't get. This is no doubt why Spike is able to walk a heroic path sooner than Angel managed, but it won't remove times when he also doesn't get it right or finds it tough. And Angel did find it very tough too, it just took longer for him to get support and a sense of direction without people readily to hand, guiding and providing examples to him. So not only did Angel return to his vampiric family and kill briefly again, but he also was shown when trying to help in Are You Now or Have You Ever Been to be capable of losing interest and patience and choosing to leave people to suffer when he tells the demon to 'take them all'. Fighting that inner balance is a huge undertaking for them and it no doubt plays into Spike not handling the Robin side of the situation with the coat admirably. But that still doesn't change that his intention in putting it on again is to put himself to one side to better serve the greater good. It seems we just feel very differently about the understanding and leniency that Spike/Angel should have when they are first souled.

Which he has already done.

No he hasn't. They are canon until he says otherwise and making a comment that he could overwrite them is not the same as dismissing them then and there and saying they are no longer the canon continuation. Joss' actions speak otherwise, he is still having them written/produced, they are his active voice on the verse and come out every month with his name on them. You don't have to pay any attention to them of course, but stating they aren't canon is just inaccurate. Yet another agree to disagree moment.

 

[thrasherpix]

Wow I love season 7, but a lot of people see it the same way you do. What are some of your biggest issues with season 7?

I was sure I'd listed my major problems with season 7 in the past, but if so then I wasn't able to find it (and my preference would be to link to that so as to not derail this thread). I guess I must've only deconstructed season 6 in any significant way, and given that I tend to conflate those 2 seasons (despite some real differences between them) then I'm wrongly remembering that I deconstructed season 7. I know I've mentioned more than one WTF moment about season 7 in which I was no longer able to suspend disbelief for, but those would be about specific scenes rather than the season as a whole.

I do ask that if anyone wants to argue me on non-Spuffy stuff, that they make a new thread in the season 7 forum.

Keeping it short (any essay on the matter will have to be in another forum), I found the writing for season 7 incredibly lazy, and the character violations were such that I was no longer able to suspend disbelief. Like season 6 it took itself too seriously which made it harder to overlook its flaws while also coming off as pretentious rather than fun, but at least season 6 put more thought into it where season 7 struck me as the writers thinking their audience will accept any BS by that point to the point they weren't even trying, and other than Spuffy and ending the series they had no real interest in it or the characters (like Xander, Willow, Giles, etc) that the rest of us cared about as much as we cared about Buffy. Buffy was an incredible hypocrite and Spike was an asshole, which I understand is sexy and romantic for some, but that doesn't work for all of us.

I didn't like how the Scoobies were sacrificed in both time and portrayal to make Spuffy happen with writing that felt forced to me (along with lazy), which was an incredible disservice to them.

Wait, I finally did remember where I wrote how season 7 could've been so different, you can find some of my ideas in this thread:

Give me you S7 story arcs, please !

 

[javidscool]

If you have to be someone you are not, especially when it means turning evil, then it's meaningless. If you can't find the motivation within yourself, from within the person you are right now, then you have no place in the fight anyway. You should never be asked to be someone you don't want to be. Buffy saved the world before by just being Buffy. I don't see why Spike has to be someone he isn't when throughout the show people have done fine beating the bad guys by just being themselves.

fantastic! couldn't have said it better myself!

Those two aren't even remotely the same. Nikki had no choice. The only way Nikki could have stopped being a slayer was to die. If she had stopped slaying people would have died. Spike's comment that Nikki should have just stopped being a slayer if she didn't want to get killed was utterly stupid. That's something you can't just stop being. Never mind that it wouldn't have mattered anyway since Spike deliberately sought her out and hunted her down for sport. Spike had a choice to be whatever he wanted, Nikki didn't.

again, fantastically said!

No Nikki didn't choose to be the slayer but she could have chosen to not take the duty on, to not act on it. That a slayer is chosen by fate/chance without any choice in the matter and is destined to die young fighting every night is unbelievably tough. Buffy's struggle in S1 with being 'fated' to die really touches on this. They are asked to put the mission/duty above their own lives/wants/aspirations once they are chosen and that is the hard truth of being 'chosen'. Spike is being asked to put aside his own choice to not connect to the violence in himself any more because he will be better able to serve the mission if he does. There are similarities in that.

In S9 when Buffy goes to speak to Robin about being the child of a slayer we see flashbacks that show Nikki did have the option to leave the duty behind as her watcher tried to help her, to keep her pregnancy from the council and cover for her in her duty. But Nikki chose to patrol and Robin talks again of how his mum put the mission first. I think Nikki is choosing to put personal matters aside for serving the mission, for protecting people and being the slayer and it is intentional that this reflects to Spike's choice to put on the coat in the episode when he no longer wants to wear it once souled, and as he has been specifically shown to choose not to up until this point. Sure you don't have to agree, but I think it is very clear that the reflection of not putting yourself first, putting your 'self' to one side and doing what serves the greater good, is very intentionally there to see.

I'm sorry but I have to respectfully side with @RomanticSoul on this. Nikki really didn't have a choice, @Stoney. What was she to do, not act on her slayer duties and have many people die? That's really no choice at all, which is what all slayers struggle with, including Buffy. They HAVE to protect people from the demons, and the consequences on their conscience would be too great if they didn't. I CAN see your point, which you've made many times, that Spike is new to the soul game, and is just trying to do the best he can, which is why he put the jacket back on, but, as @thrasherpix said in a seperate post (thanks for liking it so much @thrasherpix):

If Spike had given up the coat as part of making amends and putting his demonic self behind him would've greatly endeared the new Spike to me, and made me a lot more sympathetic to him...and could've inspired similar wonderful moments with other characters as well. Such a missed opportunity, IMO.

this is a VERY big missed opportunity for Spike's development, and it's unfortunate that the writers in the show didn't take advantage of it.

Buffy with Spike and Willow and the mass rape of thousand of girls

well didn't the girls know what was gonna happen to them? didn't Buffy and Willow discuss it beforehand (even though we in the audience didn't get to see cause it would've spoiled the surprise)? they didn't just go into that ubervamp fight not knowing that they were about to gain this enormous power, that would've been stupid and simply suicidal on their part
 

Way too many. If you had asked me to name 3-5 things I did like that would have been easier. Thought I would be hard pressed to find a total of 5.

wow, ok, didn't expect this answer. I'm gonna do what @thrasherpix said, @RomanticSoul, and start a discussion of this in the Buffy S7 side of this forum, as I don't wanna break continuity with this thread.

Ok, it's done @RomanticSoul and @thrasherpix. I started a discussion of s7 issues on the s7 board, if you all wanna chime in there:
What issues do people have with S7?

 

[Stoney]

I'm sorry but I have to respectfully side with @RomanticSoul on this. Nikki really didn't have a choice, @Stoney. What was she to do, not act on her slayer duties and have many people die? That's really no choice at all, which is what all slayers struggle with, including Buffy. They HAVE to protect people from the demons, and the consequences on their conscience would be too great if they didn't. I CAN see your point, which you've made many times, that Spike is new to the soul game, and is just trying to do the best he can, which is why he put the jacket back on, but, as @thrasherpix said in a seperate post (thanks for liking it so much @thrasherpix):

If Spike had given up the coat as part of making amends and putting his demonic self behind him would've greatly endeared the new Spike to me, and made me a lot more sympathetic to him...and could've inspired similar wonderful moments with other characters as well. Such a missed opportunity, IMO.​

this is a VERY big missed opportunity for Spike's development, and it's unfortunate that the writers in the show didn't take advantage of it.

As big as mirroring the actual choice and behaviour of the slayer he had killed unsouled by putting his own personal feelings and wants for himself to one side for the mission, the mission which he then even sacrifices his own life for??? Can't agree I'm afraid. Particularly considering the meaningful separation between the person that actually killed Nikki and the one who dies putting her mission first too.

Spike hadn't apologised to Robin but he had already chosen to put the coat aside and his demonic self behind him. The point here has nothing to do with Spike being new to the soul game other than his inability to be kinder to Robin than he chooses, or perhaps in not managing to find a different way to connect to the fighter he can be again. The point is that he was also choosing to not put himself first, to set aside his own wishes to separate from who he had been, and put the mission first instead.

I never said Nikki should not have chosen to fight by the way. It was an observation that it was a possible choice to not do so which was covered specifically in the comics in relation to when she was pregnant and someone else was telling her they would cover her duty. But her strength of feeling about putting the mission first was such that even then she didn't. I agree that a slayer fights to protect people, to put them above themselves and not accept the deaths of innocent people they could have prevented. Again, this is kind of the point of the reflection between Spike souled ignoring his own wishes, to Nikki's and Buffy's choice as slayers to protect others with their lives above whatever other choices they could have made if they had put themselves first and not put their lives on the line for the mission above all else.

 

[white avenger]

well didn't the girls know what was gonna happen to them? didn't Buffy and Willow discuss it beforehand (even though we in the audience didn't get to see cause it would've spoiled the surprise)? they didn't just go into that ubervamp fight not knowing that they were about to gain this enormous power, that would've been stupid and simply suicidal on their part

Buffy discussed the activation spell with the dozen or so girls who were there in Sunnydale, and she may have believed, from what Giles told her ("Once, there were many, but now there are only a handful left, AND THEY ARE ALL HEADING FOR SUNNYDALE") that all of the Potentials left in the world were sitting right there in her living room. In fact, that is almost certainly what she believed, because suddenly bestowing that kind of power on a few thousand girls with neither explanation or, until a long time after the fact, any sort of guidance is the epitome of irresponsibility.

 

[javidscool]

Buffy discussed the activation spell with the dozen or so girls who were there in Sunnydale, and she may have believed, from what Giles told her ("Once, there were many, but now there are only a handful left, AND THEY ARE ALL HEADING FOR SUNNYDALE") that all of the Potentials left in the world were sitting right there in her living room. In fact, that is almost certainly what she believed, because suddenly bestowing that kind of power on a few thousand girls with neither explanation or, until a long time after the fact, any sort of guidance is the epitome of irresponsibility.

Yes, this is what I believe too. There was no way for her to know exactly how many potentials there were in the entire world, and what the long-term ramifications of what she was doing would be. She needed to defeat the ubervamps and bringers, and that is what she was focused on, because not doing so could've spelled the destruction of the world. She needed to make a decision fast and she did. She could't defeat that many enemies (ubervamps and bringers) by herself and therefore simply evened the odds. I particularly loved the ending because the Buffy-verse finally did what I thought was the right decision all along. Think about it, how the hell can you task one slayer with fighting ALL the demons in the ENTIRE world??? That's bullshit, and plainly unfair. Even if Buffy was on the hellmouth, what about the vampires in Japan, Europe, Cuba, Antarctica, etc, etc. etc.??? How the HELL can one slayer combat all of these demons from all different parts of the world??? It's bullshit and shouldn't be expected from ANYONE. The beginning of season 8 in the comics was fantastic for me because the series was FINALLY doing what I thought should be done all along, which was to have an army of slayers in regiments all around the world linked back to multiple command bases with witches and psychics helping them out from behind the front lines. When I first took a look at Xander's command base in the very first issue of season 8 I thought, "Jesus Christ, this is what should've been happening all along!!!" I give the people who created the slayer magic BIG points off for having the idiocy of having one slayer take care of all of the world's demon problems. How STUPID can you be to think that was a good idea!? Why did they do that in the first place??? Hmmm, this may have to be a separate thread in itself.
 

As big as mirroring the actual choice and behaviour of the slayer he had killed unsouled by putting his own personal feelings and wants for himself to one side for the mission, the mission which he then even sacrifices his own life for??? Can't agree I'm afraid. Particularly considering the meaningful separation between the person that actually killed Nikki and the one who dies putting her mission first too.

Spike hadn't apologised to Robin but he had already chosen to put the coat aside and his demonic self behind him. The point here has nothing to do with Spike being new to the soul game other than his inability to be kinder to Robin than he chooses, or perhaps in not managing to find a different way to connect to the fighter he can be again. The point is that he was also choosing to not put himself first, to set aside his own wishes to separate from who he had been, and put the mission first instead.

I never said Nikki should not have chosen to fight by the way. It was an observation that it was a possible choice to not do so which was covered specifically in the comics in relation to when she was pregnant and someone else was telling her they would cover her duty. But her strength of feeling about putting the mission first was such that even then she didn't. I agree that a slayer fights to protect people, to put them above themselves and not accept the deaths of innocent people they could have prevented. Again, this is kind of the point of the reflection between Spike souled ignoring his own wishes, to Nikki's and Buffy's choice as slayers to protect others with their lives above whatever other choices they could have made if they had put themselves first and not put their lives on the line for the mission above all else.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that Spike missed a big chance for character growth by finding himself and his power another way, without reverting to old, evil things of his past. Me, @thrasherpix and @RomanticSoul seem to agree on this, but if you don't then we can agree to disagree

 

[Stoney]

I guess all I'm trying to say is that Spike missed a big chance for character growth by finding himself and his power another way, without reverting to old, evil things of his past. Me, @thrasherpix and @RomanticSoul seem to agree on this, but if you don't then we can agree to disagree

Hmmm, but I'm not saying there isn't weakness in needing to use a prop to connect to a side of himself that he is struggling to reconcile with. Or even that it isn't hard, even cruel to keep wearing it once he finds out that Robin is Nikki's son. I'm saying that to focus on those aspects is to miss the point in the episode of the in-story narrative justification for him doing so anyway. Given in the deliberate mirroring to Nikki and Buffy putting the mission first through his willingness to put his own feelings about not wanting to wear the coat and feel connected to his evil past, to one side. He isn't reverting to his evil past through doing this, he is reluctantly using a connection to it to achieve what is asked of him and doing so despite his own feelings. It isn't great on some levels for sure but that is kind of the point. It is a choice he makes for the greater good and in doing so he is reflecting the behaviour of the warriors of good. But sure, agree to disagree again.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Just came across this

James Marsters Says Spike 'Was Not the Right Answer' for Buffy

“People like to fight,” Marsters told Entertainment Weekly. “They like to get into teams and push against the other team and prove the other side wrong. I think what the show was saying very clearly was that Angel was her One, but it was impossible. I think the show was equally clear that Spike was not the right answer.”

 

[Stoney]

Just came across this

James Marsters Says Spike 'Was Not the Right Answer' for Buffy

This is always the problem, it depends on what is edited. We don't really know the full comments that were made, only what we are told. The clips of the reunion didn't provide all of what James said and neither does this article. The EW issue obviously is edited too, but it also shows (below and linked within the article above too) that JM didn't solely say Spike wasn't right for Buffy full stop. I've heard JM make the point before that Spike was the bad boyfriend unsouled, that the audience was being reminded that he was evil and I agree with that. But he has also said that he thought at the end of the series Angel was better for her basically because he was further into his journey souled. This sits with the point he made which was in the printed EW article that Spike needs time to work out what he should do with his soul. And this is what has happened post the show in the comics. Spike stayed away from Buffy for years and matured in that time, developed whilst they were apart and now they are in a healthy functioning relationship (for the time being anyway ).

 

[TriBel]

This is always the problem, it depends on what is edited. We don't really know the full comments that were made, only what we are told. The clips of the reunion didn't provide all of what James said and neither does this article. The EW issue obviously is edited too, but it also shows (below and linked within the article above too) that JM didn't solely say Spike wasn't right for Buffy full stop. I've heard JM make the point before that Spike was the bad boyfriend unsouled, that the audience was being reminded that he was evil and I agree with that. But he has also said that he thought at the end of the series Angel was better for her basically because he was further into his journey souled. This sits with the point he made which was in the printed EW article that Spike needs time to work out what he should do with his soul. And this is what has happened post the show in the comics. Spike stayed away from Buffy for years and matured in that time, developed whilst they were apart and now they are in a healthy functioning relationship (for the time being anyway ).

View attachment 9007

I find JM over-defensive sometimes. This is Whedon in Empire, March 2017. It seems to be verbatim.

"We had a few things in mind with season seven. One, everybody was tired of being depressed, including us. Two, this was the last season. Three, let’s get back to where we started. Let’s go back to the beginning. Not the word, not the bang, but the real beginning. And the real beginning is girl power. The real beginning is what does it mean to be a Slayer? And not to feel guilty about the power, but having seen the dark side of it, to find the light again. To explore the idea of the Slayer fully and perhaps to see a very grown up and romantic and confusing relationship that isn’t about power, but is actually genuinely beautiful between two people in the form of Buffy and Spike." I think the comic arc was quite reasonable.
 

Buffy discussed the activation spell with the dozen or so girls who were there in Sunnydale, and she may have believed, from what Giles told her ("Once, there were many, but now there are only a handful left, AND THEY ARE ALL HEADING FOR SUNNYDALE") that all of the Potentials left in the world were sitting right there in her living room. In fact, that is almost certainly what she believed, because suddenly bestowing that kind of power on a few thousand girls with neither explanation or, until a long time after the fact, any sort of guidance is the epitome of irresponsibility.

Do you think that's what happened (genuine question)? If so, do you think Giles was just badly informed? It never made much sense to me - particularly from a feminist perspective. It's not just the repercussions - Slayers without guidance, Slayers ill-equipped to perform the role (Dana for instance) - but also the lack of choice for those chosen who weren't in one the plan. They'd already discussed the downside of being the chosen one in Potentials (life turned upside down - early death etc.). Also, again from a feminist perspective - it seems they just appropriated the tools of patriarchy (militaristic solutions). In fact, in the long run, it just seems to be one problem after another as a result of that decision. I'm just asking because "Girl Power" was an incredibly reductive and naïve solution by the early 2000s (in fact before that). I honestly wondered whether Whedon was actually making the point that it was outmoded? Certainly, her solution goes against the grain for many of the movements within Third Wave Feminism and Marxist Feminists etc.

 

[white avenger]

Do you think that's what happened (genuine question)? If so, do you think Giles was just badly informed?

I got the impression that the Watchers never really knew just how many actual Potentials there were in the world. As I recall, they never knew, or at least, approached, Buffy prior to her actually being Called, and I seriously doubt that that was the first time that something like that had happened. Most likely, the Watchers had some way of identifying and locating the few most likely Potentials at any given time, and those were the ones that they trained beforehand, on the hope that they would, eventually, be Called, but in reality, who was called was pretty much a crap shoot.

Joss never went into any sort of detail about the process by which a particular girl might be Called, so we can only guess and conjecture, so anyone's guess is as good ans anyone else's, and he never even hinted of multiple Potentials until it became necessary as a plot device.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Hello, I'm new to the forums, and I know this question has probably been posed a million times before, but I simply CANNOT understand how anyone is Team Spike, aside from the fact that Spike is a bad boy and girls like bad boys. He abused her, tried to kill her many times, almost raped her, and even Buffy acknowledged that their relationship was destructive.

This was even touched upon on the final Buffy episodes of season 7, when she instantly ran into Angel's arms and started kissing him, making Spike jealous, and at the very end when Spike had the amulet on and Buffy said she loved him, he said, "no you don't, but thanks for saying it"...puleeease explain to me how anyone can be Team Spike, cause I really don't even see another choice BUT Team Angel. What am I missing???

I too am relatively new and share your sentiment on Spuffy. I have found that we are handedly outnumbered in this position re Spuffy on these boards. Lol.

I don't understand how one could compare Spike with Angel as the best man (vampire) for Buffy and choose Spike? As you say they had a horribly destructive relationship and it blows my mind that there is such an overwhelming response to this ship at all. I find Spike beneath Buffy. Angel to me is her equal.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Angel to me is her equal.

Are you saying he's the 'ying to her yang'? The universe thought so, apparently. As did the PTB when they send Angel to Buffy. Literally the only higher power who doesn't see it that way is Joss Whedon.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Are you saying he's the 'ying to her yang'? The universe thought so, apparently. As did the PTB when they send Angel to Buffy. Literally the only higher power who doesn't see it that way is Joss Whedon.

Do I think Buffy and Angel are destined, soul mates, meant to be, kissmite, kyrumption, together they are stronger alone they are dead?... hell yeah I do! (Except for NOT the Season 8 way!)

But putting all of those notions of a greater destiny aside, I also happen to think that as warriors for good, as heros who face battles daily, who make sacrifices in their lives for their "calling", who make decisions that may sometimes be flawed but good intentioned, because of the work they do day in and day out, and the experiences that have had during their journeys, they are equals.

Joss Whedon as a higher power. That is a scary thought! lol.

 

[white avenger]

I don't understand how one could compare Spike with Angel as the best man (vampire) for Buffy and choose Spike?

I think it's got something to do with that "Dull as a table lamp" thing that Spike referred to.

 

[flow]

I have found that we are handedly outnumbered in this position re Spuffy on these boards. Lol.

You really think so ? I find it very equally matched if you look at the number of threads and members in both fan clubs and at the rankings or polls that we sometimes have. Of course we Spuffys have more to talk about ....

Angel to me is her equal

That is funny because it is one of the things that made me fall for Spike and Buffy. That they have a lot in common and are equally matched.

Flow

 

[RomanticSoul]

But putting all of those notions of a greater destiny aside, I also happen to think that as warriors for good, as heros who face battles daily, who make sacrifices in their lives for their "calling", who make decisions that may sometimes be flawed but good intentioned, because of the work they do day in and day out, and the experiences that have had during their journeys, they are equals.

Angel is the only one who could possibly understand Buffy's life and destiny/battles. Hell the two shows made damn sure to have all these parallel stories woven into them to make that crystal clear. The only other person who comes close to understanding Buffy is Faith, being a fellow slayer and all.

Joss Whedon as a higher power. That is a scary thought! lol.

Well he thinks that highly of himself. But I just meant that in terms of the stories told on Buffy, he is THE highest power.