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I don't understand Spuffy

Stoney

Spiked!
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I don't understand how one could compare Spike with Angel as the best man (vampire) for Buffy and choose Spike? As you say they had a horribly destructive relationship and it blows my mind that there is such an overwhelming response to this ship at all. I find Spike beneath Buffy. Angel to me is her equal.
Of course at the end day this is largely about subjective preference. No character is perfect and without flaws and neither of these relationships are written to have no reasonable points for criticism, or to be without any foundation for praise either. Both Angel's and Spike's stories are written to be about complex individuals who are trying to walk heroic paths. We just join them at very different stages and watch different aspects of their stories as they progress. They are individual characters with their differing points of focus, their own strengths and their own weaknesses. When souled I'd say they are both capable of having a healthy, adult relationship and Buffy has actively/openly chosen to pursue a relationship with them both at different points. In my opinion she clearly loves them both, cares for them both deeply and they have both been written as legitimate relationship choices for her when they're souled. Of course writing intention doesn't mean that it has to work for you and obviously on both sides of this shipping war it doesn't always compute for some viewers/readers. And even if they both do make sense to you, people will still often have a personal preferences. I think it is fair to say though that to see either souled vamp as a terrible person or either relationship as totally invalid and/or beneath Buffy, is to miss intended qualities of the characters or aspects of the relationship or the progress in the story within their dynamic together. Things written that others clearly do see and appreciate. Sure they are characters that have flaws but these stories are about characters who are trying to walk positive paths, how they fail but also how they succeed. Both relationships are written as having strengths, both vamps as characters that Buffy cares for, chooses to be with and both as relationships that have brought her both heartache and strength.

Both vamps are favourite characters for me but I prefer Spike and I think that he and Buffy strengthen each other and complement each other very well. I totally accept some people prefer Angel and would prefer Bangel, but I don't want to get into listing any weaknesses that I feel exist in their relationship to raise up Spuffy. As I've said neither are perfect or without points for criticism or praise. Unfortunately for Buffy and Angel their situation isn't without additional complications and the potential risks of them being together have factored into keeping them apart. Buffy and Spike are lucky that they can have a shot at being together and are, at the moment, happy and it is working for them. I'll enjoy it whilst it lasts and hope that if it does fail that they do both gain from the time they've shared. Pockets of relative peace and happiness are often few and far between in this verse.
 
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Priceless
Priceless
Nicely put

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
But putting all of those notions of a greater destiny aside, I also happen to think that as warriors for good, as heros who face battles daily, who make sacrifices in their lives for their "calling", who make decisions that may sometimes be flawed but good intentioned, because of the work they do day in and day out, and the experiences that have had during their journeys, they are equals.
If I didn't know better I'd say this was a pretty accurate description of Spuffy as well;)
In fact I would say all of that word for word with different names replacing the pronouns.
 

white avenger

white avenger
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In all seriousness, could it be that, somewhere between Season 1 and Season 7, Buffy's taste in men simply changed? That maybe, in some way, by Season 10, she considered a relationship with Spike to be somehow more comfortable than anything that she might be able to share with Angel, especially with the "losing the soul" clause in his curse? I don't know if Buffy ever found out about Angel and Nina, but even if she never did, it wouldn't have been too hard to figure out that, while Angel couldn't have a moment of perfect happiness with him, he could almost certainly have a moment of happiness with someone else? That is, arguably, what she had with Riley, after all.

Whether or not you consider Spuffy to be the ideal relationship or not, it is, at least for the present, the best viable choice that Buffy has, and Angel should plan his future in the same fashion. He can't have Buffy, that's a given. But no one says that you have to starve to death just because you can't have steak, when there's hamburger on the menu.
 

flow

Scooby
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May 4, 2017
Messages
813
He was either misquoted or changes his mind more often than Spike changed his boots ;)

He said in an interview that was published on 10.08.2017 that Buffy and Spike were the ultimate pairing of the show.

You can find the interview here:

James Marsters explains why 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' is this generation's 'Star Trek'

And this is the part where he talks about Spike and Buffy:

I would hope after 20 years, he would have figured out what to do with his soul. I think he was on the slow road to redemption when we left off with "Buffy" on the show. He was certainly enjoying being a jerk to his old friend Angel, but hopefully he’s grown past his competition with him. And mostly, I wish he has become the kind of vampire that would deserve Buffy. I think the ultimate pairing on the show was Buffy and Spike, as it obviously cannot happen with Angel since he becomes soulless every time they couple. But I also don’t think he was ready for her yet, he had a lot of learning to do. I think getting the soul was just the first step to that. So yeah, after 20 years, he would totally deserve her.
Flow
 

Mylie

Scooby
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Everytime they couple? Dude it happened once lol.

He does seem to change his mind a lot when it comes to spuffy/bangel. Or maybe he just didn't feel like saying his actual opinion in front of SGM the bangel shipper. :)
 

sosa lola

Scooby
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Hello, I'm new to the forums, and I know this question has probably been posed a million times before, but I simply CANNOT understand how anyone is Team Spike, aside from the fact that Spike is a bad boy and girls like bad boys. He abused her, tried to kill her many times, almost raped her, and even Buffy acknowledged that their relationship was destructive.
IMO it's a taste thing. Some fans enjoy mushy love, some fans enjoy healthy depicted relationships, some fans enjoy the forbidden romance, and some fans enjoy intense and abusive relationships like S6 Spuffy (I won't lump S7 Spuffy in that category. S7 was a healthy friendship enveloping great heat and passion.)

I, myself, find S6 Spuffy interesting to watch and explore and discuss and read fanfics about. I enjoy reading about complicated and abusive relationships. It does not mean I support them or want them in my life. I mean, hey, we enjoy a show about vampires it doesn't mean we want real vampires in our lives.



..puleeease explain to me how anyone can be Team Spike, cause I really don't even see another choice BUT Team Angel. What am I missing???
Other than the sexy factor, Spike is an enjoyable character and he does make up for his mistakes. The rape attempt was what pushed him to get a soul. After getting his own soul, he began to care about lives of others - something that was already there except it was mostly caring about people Buffy cares about/being there for Buffy - he became a champion and was the only person by Buffy's side in Empty Places/Touched.
 

Stoney

Spiked!
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He was either misquoted or changes his mind more often than Spike changed his boots ;)

He said in an interview that was published on 10.08.2017 that Buffy and Spike were the ultimate pairing of the show.

You can find the interview here:

James Marsters explains why 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' is this generation's 'Star Trek'
I saw that interview too. It isn't actually totally inconsistent with the further details from the 20th reunion they published in the EW mag, (in the page I attached above), where he again says that with time Spike could become worthy of being with Buffy once he'd had time to figure out his soul, or some such.

People do respond to context of course and there are many factors in an interview that can steer the answers somewhat and, as I said before, it depends also on what the interviewer chooses to edit it down to. Here I took him saying 'ultimate pairing' to mean the one that got the most screentime, development and was where the show itself finished. That wouldn't mean he couldn't also see the Bangel pairing as more of a love story. Again there is ambiguity and interpretation at play. :)
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
Honestly I don't give much credibility to what James Marsters said/says..
He has changed his mind so much over the years that I doubt he really thinks what he says
I'll watch him get interviewed about how he hated Spike being turned into a hero and then a year later say Spike and Buffy deserved to get together and his favorite season was his season on Angel. Dude needs to make up his mind.
 
Antho
Antho
I deleted my post :) I don't want you in trouble lol

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Black Thorn
Yeah James Marsters is all over the place on these topics. It doesn't help that he does a comic con deal like 3 times a year. And so was David Boreanaz on the Cangel/Bangel stuff from what I can tell. I think the responses he gave depended on what they were trying to sell at the moment. If the show was selling Cangel he gave some Cangel-Esque quotes.

SMG has been pretty solid all along :D
 

Antho

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And so was David Boreanaz on the Cangel/Bangel stuff from what I can tell. I think the responses he gave depended on what they were trying to sell at the moment. If the show was selling Cangel he gave some Cangel-Esque quotes.
I woud say that it's David Boreanaz's personality. I think he is the kind of guy who live and care for the present and leave the past behind him. When he was in Buffy, he said nice things about Bangel, and when he was in Angel, he said nice things about Cangel. After the shows were finished, he rarely talked about Angel, he mostly talk about Bones, his new series. And now Bones is over, he doesn't talk about the series, he is all about "Seal Team" his new project ! All I want to say is that I thing he is like that !
 

Mylie

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Yes, it definitely goes with his personality but he's also been seen dismissing Cangel and being pro Bangel during s5 of AtS. Which ok might make sense since they were killing off Cordelia and the rivalry with Spike. I don't think I've ever really got the impression that he really was pro-Cangel though. Even when being positive about the pairing, it was very far from the stuff he said about Bangel. And I do think that in the end, Bangel > Cangel for him.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Black Thorn
Yes, it definitely goes with his personality but he's also been seen dismissing Cangel and being pro Bangel during s5 of AtS. Which ok might make sense since they were killing off Cordelia and the rivalry with Spike. I don't think I've ever really got the impression that he really was pro-Cangel though. Even when being positive about the pairing, it was very far from the stuff he said about Bangel. And I do think that in the end, Bangel > Cangel for him.
Yeah I got the impression that he was probably told to sell Cangel during that time. And the he later says "I never understood the Cordy thing" and some comments about why Angel says Buffy's name in the dream scene.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
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Sineya
It depends on what you consider to be more important; does the story move you or does it make sense.
Spuffy moves many people because its interesting and well-acted in both S6 and S7 and that's really all that matters, some people find the subject matter off-putting because of the messages it sends.
I understand both those points of view; for me I can't invest in Spuffy because 1) It doesn't make sense as depicted.
With Bangel you could completely remove the Angelus aspect and the romance still works- for the most part- but you can't do the same with Spike/Buffy; that's a big problem.
2) It (apparently) requires that the viewer believe that Spike is somehow special without any explanation as to why he is special.
3) I don't like what Spike and Buffy turn into in S7, especially around each other. They seem to bring out the worst in each other; I don't like that destination so I can't invest in any of the journey.
 

Serenityrose

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I don't know if it requires you to think of Spike as special. Actually it's Angelus who appears to be more of an anomaly.
Look at the episodes Surprise and Innocence. The judge determines that Spike, Dru, and even Dalton have humanity in them. He then said Angelus had none. Over the years we've seen the examples of other vampires having humanity.. Harmony, Holden,..
So it's not just Spike.

As for Spuffy it's always going to boil down to personal preference. Does their chemistry, story, and relationship appeal more to you. Some people prefer dark and complicated. They prefer seeing a journey from enemies to lovers. Others prefer a Romeo and Juliet type of thing. I've always preferred the former.

A few of the writers really described my feelings well:

Jane Espenson: But my number one has got to be the Buffy and Spike love story. I think that is just a gorgeous story. How do you follow up her romance with Angel? I like the romance with Spike better. I'm more interested in the heat between those two characters because I felt Buffy and Angel had romantic love. Spike and Buffy have something so much more complicated that it's got that romance and all this other stuff on top of it which makes it so interesting for me.

Joss Whedon: You know what, I liked Spike. With Angel it’s too “Romeo and Juliet”. Which means, as soon as it happens you’re bored. Riley, you know he was a well-adjusted person who loved her in a much, much healthier way than the other two guys. Nobody wants to see that. With Buffy and Spike, they had a real Beatrice and Benedick kind of relationship, in “Much Ado About Nothing”. I think with the wedding, she would have tried to do something fast, but he would have made it elaborate and done everything wrong. It would have been extraordinarily counter-intuitive, and awesome!

Joss Whedon: I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me.


So ultimately it's all about preference and what draws you in as a viewer. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. Just difference of opinion.
 

AstridDante

Potential
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I don't know if it requires you to think of Spike as special. Actually it's Angelus who appears to be more of an anomaly.
Look at the episodes Surprise and Innocence. The judge determines that Spike, Dru, and even Dalton have humanity in them. He then said Angelus had none. Over the years we've seen the examples of other vampires having humanity.. Harmony, Holden,..
So it's not just Spike.

As for Spuffy it's always going to boil down to personal preference. Does their chemistry, story, and relationship appeal more to you. Some people prefer dark and complicated. They prefer seeing a journey from enemies to lovers. Others prefer a Romeo and Juliet type of thing. I've always preferred the former.

A few of the writers really described my feelings well:

Jane Espenson: But my number one has got to be the Buffy and Spike love story. I think that is just a gorgeous story. How do you follow up her romance with Angel? I like the romance with Spike better. I'm more interested in the heat between those two characters because I felt Buffy and Angel had romantic love. Spike and Buffy have something so much more complicated that it's got that romance and all this other stuff on top of it which makes it so interesting for me.

Joss Whedon: You know what, I liked Spike. With Angel it’s too “Romeo and Juliet”. Which means, as soon as it happens you’re bored. Riley, you know he was a well-adjusted person who loved her in a much, much healthier way than the other two guys. Nobody wants to see that. With Buffy and Spike, they had a real Beatrice and Benedick kind of relationship, in “Much Ado About Nothing”. I think with the wedding, she would have tried to do something fast, but he would have made it elaborate and done everything wrong. It would have been extraordinarily counter-intuitive, and awesome!

Joss Whedon: I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me.


So ultimately it's all about preference and what draws you in as a viewer. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. Just difference of opinion.
Loving and agree with all of the above. It is definitely your own preference and I can see the draw to both relationships. Buffy and Angel are great love all Romeo and Juliet however what Spike and Buffy had/have is very real, complicated, romantic and the chemistry between the characters and actors was what drew me the most to Spuffy
 
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