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"I want my life to be with you" "I don't"

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by dcai0830, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    I'm posting this on the general Season 3 forum instead of a Bangel forum because I want to get different shippers and non shipper's perspective.

    The convo in the sewers comes up a lot in the conversations and videos that are anti-Bangel and the line that gets played a lot is:

    Buffy: I want my life to be with you.
    Angel: I don't.

    Here is my question, I always interpreted that line to mean that Angel was telling Buffy that he didn't want her life to be with him. Not that he didn't want his life to be with her. Which goes in context with what he is saying (i.e. Buffy deserves more than he can give him).

    Given that this line gets thrown into conversations that purport to show how Angel didn't love Buffy (or was generally a crappy guy) did anyone out ther read this text differently? Specifically, did any of you all think that Angel was saying he didn't want his life to be with her?
     
  2. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    No, I've always read it the same way as you. But I also think that the other way isn't that bad. It's true that he doesn't want his life to be with her since he doesn't think he's enough for her. I think it works both ways and the general idea is still there : he doesn't think that they should spend their life together.
     
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  3. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    I'm not a shipper and I see it the same way.
     
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  4. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    I don`t think it is a secret that I love Spike and Buffy and think they are meant for each other. I also think that Angel and Bufy truly and deeply loved each other. I don`t think, there can be only one love.

    Having said this, I have always understood the meaning of what Angel said exactly like you do. It is not about his life, it is about hers. But even if he had said clearly "I don`t want my life to be with yours", it would still have been for the same reason. The reason is not that he doesn`t love her but that he thinks she will have a happier life without him in it.

    The difficulties I have with this scene are different ones. I don`t know, if you want to know about it, so I will say nothing, unless you give me permission, as this is your thread.

    Flow
     
  5. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    I am a bit of a closet Bangel fan, but there is a lot of post s2 stuff that bothers me about Angel. Leaving Buffy for the reasons he states is not one of them.

    One thing that confuses me is that in Sanctuary, Angel says, "You broke up with me!" That is not what happened. :confused:
     
  6. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    What? I don't remember that happening?

    He said that it was her idea to stay away from each other, which is true. That's what she told him at the end of I Will Remember You, which was in reaction to him showing up in Pangs.
     
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  7. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    Thanks for clearing that up for me. Sorry about the misquote. I am often too lazy to look things up.

    I guess I may have resented Angel a little for leaving, even if his reasoning made sense. That is how feelings work, I guess.
     
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  8. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I don't think that anyone seriously doubts that Angel loved Buffy, or even that she might very well have been the first romantic love he had ever known. I he had no feelings or her, he would have either stayed in Sunnydale (ignoring the fact of the spinoff, of course) or left and never come back. He did neither. He love her to the point that, even when it became obvious that bad things were apt to happen whenever they were together, he still simply could not stay away. Even when she has obviously moved on with Riley, and later, in Season 10, with Spike, and despite whatever feelings that he may or may not have had about Cordy, or, later, Nina, I don't think that Angel ever has, or probably ever will, totally get over Buffy.
     
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  9. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy BFF of Sour Patch Kid

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    Sineya
    I'm an obvious devout Spuffy shipper and I think it's pretty clear that Angel is saying what you think he is saying @dcai0830. He values her ability to have a life very much.
     
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  10. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    Angel says that he doesn't want his life to be with Buffy however it's not true he's saying that because he wants to make it easier on her when he leaves. He's also trying to convince himself that he doesn't want to be with Buffy.
    I think that Angel just understands that seeing as Buffy's life is full of death and darkness (her slaying life), her love life should be kept in the light as he says and so Buffy shouldn't be with him. Anyone remember Angel's dream where he and Buffy got married? That was symbolising how destructive it is for Buffy to be in a relationship with a vampire, Buffy's getting married to him in the dream and then she goes up in flames. Even as a Bangel shipper I agree with him, he's technically not the best thing for Buffy, the best thing for Buffy would be a human who can actually go out with her in the day time and make her feel normal. So, despite the fact that Angel would love to be selfish and be with Buffy at the expense of Buffy having a normal life, instead he'll do the right thing and he'll leave her.
     
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  11. Athena

    Athena Belinda Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    Angel is acting completely selflessly. He could have told Buffy he wanted her, and Buffy would have accepted that and literally stopped living her own life to be with him, she was so in love with him.

    Angel, being (slightly) older, knows that as much as he loves her, he can't condemn her to his immortal life. She deserves to life a full and happy life as any young woman should, and she could never do that with him. It's quite sweet actually. It could almost turn me Bangel.... ;)
     
  12. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    You don't need my permission, my thread is your thread ;). Speak your mind!
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 3, 2017 ---
    Interesting, so you think that he WAS saying he didn't want his life to be with Buffy? And further, you think he wanted her to think that is what he meant. That is a different perspective. Thanks!
     
  13. Athene

    Athene Scooby

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    I think Angel was just desperate, Buffy didn't seem to understand that him leaving was coming from a place of love so I think he was trying another tactic which was saying he didn't want to be with her.
     
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  14. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    Angel had been subjected to The Talk from Joyce who basically told him that Buffy was a teenage girl who would never be able to initiate a split so if it was going to happen, he was the one who had to do it. He saw the truth in that and this is the reason for the exchange:

    Buffy: I want my life to be with you.
    Angel: I don't.

    This was the only way there could be a clean break because Buffy would never agree to split up unless he said that. Angel understands the "I love you but I can never touch you" scenario as one that will deny Buffy any happiness in spit of them being together, so he had to initiate the split unilaterally.
     
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  15. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    Okay !

    The first problem I have is, how was he to know, she would be happier without him ? She actually wasn`t, as we could see in S4-S7. She never had a normal life and she never had a happy and healthy relationship (except for the Comics, if you Count them). And honestly - there are many normal people, who don`t have a happy life. Not being in a relationship with a vampire is not a guarantee for happiness. You always always risk to be unhappy, if you love someone, if you share your life with somebody. That doesn`t mean, we shouldn`t try.

    The second problem I have, is, that he made that decision for her. If it would have been about his life, if he really did not want his life to be with her, then he would have had every right to make this decision. But it was about her life and it was her decision to make. And she did that. She said "I want my life to be with you". How could he take that decision away from her ? I know that he did it out of his love for her. I am not questioning that. But that doesn`t make it right.

    Flow
     
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  16. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    @flow Either person in a couple can make the decision to walk away unless they are already married. By the same logic, Buffy should not have been able to make the decision to walk away from Spike and Riley should not have been able to walk (or fly) away from Buffy. From the other side of the coin, if he was prevented from walking away from a relationship, that would be sexual slavery, an evil that is worse than rape because it is continuous and prevents anything from getting better. The fact that Buffy was never going to be "normal" or have a happy life is not his responsibility.
     
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  17. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    Pretty much this.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again : I will never understand the «he made the choice for her» argument as a way to criticize Angel. He made a choice for HIM. He didn't want to prevent her from being happy, he didn't want to not be able to give her the life she deserves. HE wanted out of the relationship.

    From a narrative point, I get it. It sucks that the character Buffy wasn't allowed to break up with her love interest and move on to another chapter of her life on her own free will. But Angel himself isn't responsible for that and the character is allowed to break up with the heroine for whatever reason he chooses.
     
  18. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy BFF of Sour Patch Kid

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    Sineya
    I agree, even though he made the choice with her in mind, he made it for himself. He didn't want to carry the burden of keeping someone from a life they deserve. I still have to disagree with his decision making though. When Giles is talking about Spike refusing to leave her like Angel did in Lies My Parents Told Me he is dead wrong. He acts like Angel is the wise one. If she's the love of your life and she wants you to be there, you should be there.
     
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  19. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    I object to that. As the old saying goes, 'sometimes love isn't enough'. In the case of B/A, they were stuck in a dead end relationship. Aside from the difficulties of slayer/vampire and mortal immortal, they were also limited due to the curse. They could never really be intimate or happy with each other because it literally would destroy Angel. Was Willow supposed to sleep with a box of orbs under her bed in case of a call in the middle of the night? While B/A know to be careful they are still human, sort of, and sometimes humans are weak. Even these two. Eventually they would give into their desires. And death and destruction would follow.

    Angel is fully aware of all this and the limits of their relationship. But he loves Buffy enough to want for her to have a relationship where she can express herself however she wants without fear of the world ending. Where happiness isn't feared. Buffy has gone through quite a lot during her relationship to Angel (including soul loss, world almost ending, suicide attempts, limited to nighttime dating etc) and there wasn't even a possibility of an upside to all that because of the curse.

    Giles was absolutely right in what he said. When being with your partner isn't good for said partner and they aren't willing to make the break, you have to. No matter how much you might love each other because that's what selfless love is. Spike doesn't care if Buffy would be better off without him because I don't think it would ever actually enter his mind. Spike wants what he wants, after all.
     
  20. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy BFF of Sour Patch Kid

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    Sineya
    I get the whole giving into your desires thing, but Buffy said she wouldn't care about that. He has to trust that. Clearly it's not a problem for him as he went over a 100 years without getting any. If she wanted out of the relationship eventually for very logical reasons, she could say that. But it's not his job to determine what she wants. She even says that in the long run Angel is probably right. But that doesn't change the fact that he made the decision on her behalf. She deserved to decide for herself.
    As far as Spike goes, he suggested that he leave in First Date. Buffy told him not to and that she didn't want him to go. So he stayed. It's not that he "wants what he wants" and refuses to see the big picture. It's that he wants to do whatever Buffy wants. And if she made the decision for him to go, Spike would leave. She didn't. (Of course I'm referring to ensouled Spike, he obviously didn't leave when she wanted him to when he was soulless).
     
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