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"I want my life to be with you" "I don't"

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by dcai0830, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    Of course they can and they have every right to do so. I hope, I made that clear in my post. You can even walk away on your decision alone, if you are already married.

    This is where I am sorry to have to disagree. Of course Buffy had every right to walk away from Spike. She made that decision for her. She was using him, but that wasn`t the reason, she walked away. The reason for breaking up with him was, that using him was killing her. And of course Riley had every right to get out of Sunnydale via helicopter. Buffy did not love him (or so he assumed). He didn`t want to be in a relationship where he wasn`t loved or at least didn`t feel loved.

    Angel walked away from Buffy, because he decided, that a life with him was not good enough for Buffy. But Buffy chose that life. If he would have felt unhappy, because he could not give her something, Buffy wanted, then I would perfectly understand, why he chose to walk away. But Buffy wasn`t missing anything. She was in love with him. She wanted to be with him. She wanted to be with him although she perfectly knew and understood that he was a vampire and she could neither have sex nor children with him.

    She was happy. With him. She wanted the life, he could give her. Not some other life he thought to be better for her. He did not want to be out of the relationship. That is what this thread is about. Does he say that he wants out or does he say that he wants her to be out ? I think most of us agreed, it was the latter.

    Flow
     
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  2. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    I disagree slightly. She wasn't missing anything YET. Angel was her first sexual experience, and it didn't end well. She's 18, at the moment just being with him Was enough, but it wouldn't always be. Eventually she would have wanted that intimacy, most humans do. To be so in love with someone and never be able to truly consummate that love, is a burden that Angel didn't want her to bear. I honestly feel he had the benefit of age and experience ...he was perfectly aware that she might one day want more, even if she didn't think so.

    I'm not just talking sex here either because I don't personally feel that it was just sex with Buffy that broke the curse. I think it was the peace and contentment he felt in her arms that did it, and whose to say that won't happen again? She's literally his weakness, if he's too happy he will go evil. What kind of future is that, to always be holding back with each other to prevent apocalyptic problems? She might say she's totally cool with it, but she's had literally no other experience.

    I say this as a Bangel lover btw. I mean, she was willing to put her life on hold just To be with him, and couldnt see clearly IMO. He did. If they made there way back to each other after she has had more life experiences I would have loved that! But i think at the time it was the right move on his part.

    And we see in the future just what a sexual being she is...I don't think celibacy and lack of a physical connection would have been enough for her to be honest.
     
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  3. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    Again, HE feels she deserves more. How can you completely invest in a relationship when you think your partner deserves more? It doesn't matter if the partner thinks she can be happy anyways, how are you going to be happy yourself thinking that you're not enough? Not that Angel should be happy to begin with because... of reasons :) You see how there was clearly no way this relationship could work? Either they are happy and he loses his soul (because let's face it, making Buffy happy would 100% make Angel happy and then then poof no more Angel!) or they are unhappy but then why stay together if it makes you unhappy?
     
  4. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Buffy is inexperienced. Angel doesn't have to trust that Buffy knows what she wants. Life happens and people change. They want different things at some point. And isn't it better to get out of a relationship before resentments grow? Imagine Angel had stayed and they had stayed together. Buffy would have gone to college and gone through the whole college experience. That includes lots of daytime stuff, could include parties. And all her friends are in happy, sexual relationships. Hell Willow even switches teams. All while she can't have that with Angel. Forget even the sex. They aren't even really allowed to cuddle much because if Angel becomes too content, boom the soul is gone. She would also have to split her night time focus between Angel and slaying, all while she still has to do her college assignments and such. And traveling between the mansion and UC SD. Add to that the trouble it would cause in the Buffy/Giles and Buffy/Joyce and Buffy/Scoobie relationships. That's a lot of strain to put on the girl. Something Angel wasn't willing to do. Because the benefits would be what?

    And Angel was right because Buffy herself said it in IWRY. 'I'm finally heading towards a pretty good life now that...' and Angel finished her sentence with '...I'm out of the picture'. And this was barely a few months after their break-up. That's how quickly things changed. And life changed.

    If Spike thinks it would be best if he left, then he should have. What Buffy wants doesn't matter. If he feels his absence would make things better for Buffy or himself or both, then he should go. Buffy desperately hanging on to Spike in some weird co-dependency wasn't good for either of them. It stopped Spike from growing and he was reduced to 'what Buffy wants/doesn't want' instead of carving out his own way. And it isolated Buffy from everyone around her.
     
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  5. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    I actually agree with alot of what you say here. But Angel leaving was inevitable. He did it for selfless noble reasons sure but he could have gone about it in a different way. He didn't allow her the agency to make the decisions in her life. BUT I do forgive him for a number of reasons. (1) Buffy is young and she needed to grow up, find herself and decide what it is she needed/wanted out of life. Even if she is a slayer and if she is not your typical 18 year old, she has only known his love. As it turns out we find out that normal isn't in the cards for her and in fact he probably would be a good fit for her now that she has had life and love experiences. (2) Joyce - Angel was probably on the fence at the time she shows up and Joyce, who is the other person in Buffy's world who loves her so much wants more for her daughter and lets be honest, Angel would not be Angel if he ignored her requests. (3) He didn't feel worthy of her love. I imagine being in a relationship where you are constantly questioning why the other person loves you, or if the other person deserves more is not healthy for either individual and therefore, I understand his decision at that time to leave. Him going to LA and having his own purpose did wonders for his self worth.
     
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  6. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    Ok this is becoming ridiculous.

    Someone who wants to end a relationship doesn't have to give someone else the agency that they should have themselves to be allowed to end things.

    It's not Angel who's responsible for Buffy's agency, it's the writers. If people want to complain about Buffy's lack of agency in that breakup, then blame the writers. Angel, the character, is in no way responsible for that.
     
  7. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    Well that's kind of a slippery slope isn't it? After all isn't everything the character does ultimately informed by the writers?

    Anyway, ultimately with regards to the "agency" argument Buffy realizes in short order when talking to Willow that Angel is right. So the break up is not all that one sided in the end. And you are right, if Angel wants out that is all it takes to end the relationship.

    It's interesting how my perspective on this sewer conversation and the break up has changed the older I get. When I was younger and I watched this scene and I was so pissed at Angel. I resented him for treating Buffy like a child and not listening to her. Now as an adult it seems that there was literally nothing else he could have done at the time. He had to end it.
     
  8. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy BFF of Sour Patch Kid

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    Sineya
    You're not wrong about what is logical and what makes sense. Neither was Angel. I never was saying that. I just have a problem with you saying "what Buffy wants doesn't matter". That's just not true. It absolutely does. Spike knew that. That's all I'm saying. Buffy deserves to grow up when she wants to grow up. I honestly believe she would have. She even admits he is right in the long run.
     
  9. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    No, I don't think it does in this context.

    By saying that Angel took her agency here you're implying that a person breaking up with someone else is taking agency away from the other person, like a break up has to be mutual. It's very rarely mutual and it doesn't have to be. You're allowed to not want the same thing as your partner/ex-partner without being accused of taking away their agency.

    I have my own problems with the scene and yes I do wish Buffy had more agency in it but if she doesn't it's not because Angel took it away by breaking up with her. It's because the writers decided it was going to be Angel who was going to break up with her. I get it, it made more sense because his character was leaving, etc. But I still wanted to see the protagonist make that decision. That said, Angel is not to blame in this, he has the right to break up with her without being accused of making decisions for her. As far as I know, he's a participant in that relationship and so if he wants to break up, than he's allowed to do it.

    Basically, my problem is with the very tired and old argument that Angel always made the decisions for her (same thing happens with the IWRY scene) like the guy wasn't allowed to have a say in what he wants and his participation in a relationship.
     
  10. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I always thought Angel was lying when he said that particular line. Pre-Joyce's visit, he would've loved nothing more than to be with Buffy but Joyce kind of guilt tripped him into leaving. She had Buffy's best interests at heart and what she said had validity which is why he felt he had no other option than to leave in order to do right by Buffy. His "I don't" response to Buffy saying she wanted to spend her life with him, could be his attempt to get her to hate him because then that would make the break up easier. He phones her in "City of" but hangs up when she answers, he comes back to Sunnydale in "Pangs" because he thought something was going down but didn't want Buffy to know he was there, Angel is pining over Buffy because he still loves her. Leaving her was not his choice of his own volition, it was his choice because he'd been guilt tripped and pressured into it.
     
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  11. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    Angel had been thinking about leaving Buffy since Choices. That was clearly made apparent by his uncertainty at the end of the episode when buffy tells him that they're going to be ok and the bangel scene in the prom which happens before Joyce paid him a visit. If you also look at the scene itself, Angel never acts on the defensive and even agrees with Joyce, saying that he has been thinking about Buffy's futur a lot lately.
     
  12. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Not seen this pic of Bangel before.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. TriBel

    TriBel Scooby

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    I was always under the impression that Angel was driven by duty. So, irrespective of how much he loves Buffy he sees it as his duty to finish the relationship in her best interests. There's still an element of self-investment and a number of ways you can read it. Is it a case of "the greater good"? In which case, who is he to decide what's good for her? Is it with her long term interests at heart? If so, what was the guarantee they would have a long term relationship? Is he frightened of being in a relationship he can't control? Spike gives similar reasons when he suggests he and Buffy should take a break. The difference is, Spike isn't driven by duty - just love. I always thought Angel wanted to be in control - whereas Spike was looking for someone to take control. Angel wants to be a leader - Spike is happy to be a follower.
     
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  14. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    That is in an interesting perspective. I agree that Joyce probably had some influence in his decision to leave but in my opinion he was already thinking about these choices before the Joyce speech. She probably just added fuel to that fire or maybe even justified his impending decision. Ultimately, I read it as that he left her on his own volition, it was his choice but doing the right thing isn't always easy and he continued to struggle with that decision for some time as is evidenced in early Season 1 AtS.
     
  15. Athena

    Athena Belinda Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I don't think Joyce guilt-tripped him per se, but I do think her little chat with him made him realise what Buffy would be giving up to spend her life with him..... the old adage "If you love someone, let them go" springs to mind.
     
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  16. TriBel

    TriBel Scooby

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    Aaah...what a nice post (I say this sincerely). I think you're right - she enjoys the physical side but there's more to it than that. My problem - and the reason I don't think it's feasible is - in essence, she'd be going into a relationship knowing it can't get better - that as good as it is - it's capped. In a sense, you've admitted defeat before you've started. With Spike - or indeed anyone else - there's always the possibility of perfection - something to strive for even if that perfection is an illusion.
     
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  17. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    Buffy and Angel were NOT perfect. There was a lot of room for growth there. IMO....
     
  18. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    Seems to me you are using AtS Angel's character as he developed in the later Seasons to make that assumption. I saw nothing of that In S3 BtVS. BtVS Angel wasn't driven by duty yet, hell we couldn't have even been sure that Angel would leave Buffy and go out and hunt monsters. We knew by that time AtS was coming but if it had not, we wouldn't know. Because I don't see BtVS Angel as duty driven.
     
  19. TriBel

    TriBel Scooby

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    possibly
    Sorry - I seemed to have missed your response.

    The fact he's called Angel sets alarm bells ringing from the start - that he's in a binary/dyadic relationship with Angelus simply makes the bells louder. Once this is done it becomes possible to map the teleological structure of Christianity onto other grand narratives (in my case, psychoanalysis/marxism - this doesn't preclude other discourses). Yes - I'm drawing on future events but there's nothing wrong with that - once you've viewed/read the later material it's impossible not to reflect back. IMO, it's an unwritten requirement of S6/7 (other texts do this - Gray's Lanark/1982 Janine, Morrison's Jazz - "make me, remake me", Singer's Usual Suspects - I think there is an illustration in one of the comics that alludes to US). Obviously, all this is IMO. I think the BtVS has a form as complex as Lanark (perhaps more so) and is working to similar ends but perhaps I'm conflating the two (my mind has already conflated Spike and Leonard Cohen so there's an unhealthy and rather weird precedence for this).:)

    For me, the problem is not with the relationship between Buffy and Angel in and of itself but with what Angel represents. His name, the mention of him in the same breath as perfection or perfect happiness, the incident with Twilight whereby he's duped into an act of premature utopianism that doesn't address contraries and the philosophy of history this implies (it suggests someone's read the 18th Brumaire) perhaps points towards a Hegelian dialectic (I'm being careful with this - I don't know much about about Hegel - I'm not a philosopher). It seems to me that the text, in general, favours something akin to dialectical materialism (possibly the messianism associated with Walter Benjamin) and power from below, most definitely from the distaff side (literally and metaphorically). Certainly, 6/7 are influenced by Espenson's critical perspective. I can't see how what Angel represents paves the way for the radical feminism (I use the term loosely to encompass critical / theoretical feminisms) the text seeks to lift it beyond Liberal Feminism. So yes - I can read certain trajectories into the first three seasons - the rest is, to my mind, permissible evidence. Does this mean anything? Probably not, a) I'm not an expert in any of these fields and I have an unhappy tendency to over-read cereal boxes; :( b) I haven't followed Angel's story closely, he could still be evolving (Spike has him at the pinnacle of evolution but Spike's sometimes an unreliable narrator) :rolleyes:and c) Whedon can twist the logic of his universe with a stroke of the pen. :) And now, I've forgotten what the question was and I've most certainly digressed from it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  20. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

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    You know I'll just say, you need to stop thinking so complex over everything. Trying the existential, philosophical, literary or religious way won't work really. While it's fun to go there in theory, it's IMO a waste of time and energy because Whedon & Co. sure as hell didn't think that deeply or complex on a lot of things.

    It's a moot point for me post S3. They lost the 'what would X character do perspective' for a lot of the main characters. Whatever they wanted to do, they did, whether it fit the character or not. Trying to pin that down the way you try so hard is an exercise futility IMO.