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If Illyria had taken over someone else

nightshade

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Black Thorn
How would the season have changed if it wasn't Fred that got taken over by Illyria?
 

thrasherpix

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I suppose Fred would've developed the ray gun that depowered her and also figured out what was happening without Hamilton's help. They'd probably have to have Fred break the memory orb or whatever that restored the memories Angel arranged to have erased (and she'd have to suspect Angel first, though she's smart enough to do so) as Wes wouldn't be properly motivated. And then there's the Gunn arc of his going to Hell, which was a compelling one to me...but mostly because of WHY he did it. And then who is Angel supposed to have betrayed to get into the Black Thorn? (Sending Gunn to Hell with him testifying against him later? Doesn't seem like it's quite enough...and unless Gunn agreed to it beforehand, for gods knows why, then I don't see him cooperating with Angel's continued plan.)

From the audience perspective, Illyria probably would've been a lot less interesting, not only because it took Fred, but because Amy Acker didn't play her. (So who does? Harmony? Eve? Perhaps even Faith if they had her return?)
 

Taake

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*picturing a blue Wesley in a skintight suit* I could live with this...

I suppose part if the purpose of Illyria is that juicy pain Wes has to suffer through, so having it not be Fred would elmininate a big emotional factor. I don’t think the group in general, collectively, would have cared as much if anyone else had turned into Illyria, honestly.

But, Illyria would’ve remained an interesting villain all the same. I think the main change would’ve been that there probably would never have been any kind of redemption/turning good-ish of Illyria. She-he/it would have been eliminated as a villain or become a recurring villain.

I think the desire to keep Fred around, in any way or shape, is part of Illyria’s popularity and the need to have her reform her ways. Without Fred, Illyria is more disposable
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
Nice post. You don't leave me with anything to add. Leave some meat on that bone for the rest of us!

TriBel

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How would the season have changed if it wasn't Fred that got taken over by Illyria?
I think Spike, Angel and Wes would have had less of an investment in her/him/it. Kinda changes the sexual dynamic if Illyria had incorporated Gunn.
 

white avenger

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I don't think that it could have ever worked with anyone but Fred, and it only really worked that well with Fred because it happened so soon after she and Wes finally got together. Without that element of love, so long desired and so lately acquired being lost, it just wouldn't have had that tragic element that made it so special.
 

fauxindigo

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I love how Amy played Illyria (Queen Elizabeth meets the Terminator)... but I hate that we lost Fred. I would've rather it been Eve- she kind of deserved it (wasn't she evil?) and she was also really annoying and boring so perhaps Illyria killing/possessing her wold've made her character (and the actress) more interesting.

if it were to be one of the guys... it'd be interesting if it was Gunn. Considering he willingly let Wolfram & Hart inside his body (brain upgrade)... he arguably deserved to be possessed more than Fred, who unwittingly was taken over. :( Fred was way too damn smart to mess with that sarcophagus anyway.
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
Hmm! I kinda like the idea of Eve! I might be able to warm to that with some encouragement

DagonSphere

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The story would have played very differently, because much of the dramatic heavy lifting came from Fred representing the innocence and vulnerability of the gang and being the lone female member of a team who was beloved equally by everybody who is part of Angel Investigations. it would not have been quite the same if it had been any of the other members of the gang; and since we had seen Wesley and Gunn being tough already, the difference between the two characters would not have been as jarring.
 

DeadlyDuo

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They could've had Cordelia be Illyria rather than the whole Jasmine plot. Both female members of the AI team have been possessed by another entity.

Do you think Illyria is problematic in that they killed off Fred, whose main strength was her intelligence, and power boosted her into Illyria whose physically strong and more emotionless, thus making her more into the stereotypical "strong female character" Hollywood is so fond of doing?
 

white avenger

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I love how Amy played Illyria (Queen Elizabeth meets the Terminator)... but I hate that we lost Fred.
But did we, really? I always thought that it was Fred's personality I never bought into the whole "Fred's soul was completely consumed by the hellgod" story. Absorbed, maybe, but still intact, deep down in there, and fighting with all the stubbornness of her Texan ancestors to regain her freedom., That, to my way of thinking, is really what resulted in the mellowing of Illyria's initial cold blooded arrogant nature. That would certainly explain how Fred was able to actually return in the final Season of Dark Horse's series. (Assuming, of course, that you accept those stories as actually being canon)
 
fauxindigo
fauxindigo
I do accept the canon but I also take it as wishful thinking that her soul wasn't destroyed when they said it was in s5. Bringing her back in the comics just seemed like fan service.

Altoz

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What would have happened if it had been Gunn or Wesley? Hmmm. Fred would have been dealt a devastating blow if she'd lost the man she loved forever. She might well have turned her back on the team, or else toughened up considerably in the face of the loss. And the loss of Wes as a character would have been interesting to contemplate. From being one of Angel's subordinates, Illyria/Wes or Illyria/Gunn would have been on a par with the ensouled vampire, or perhaps even stronger. In an AU, Gunn might have had second thoughts and made sure it was he that was contaminated by the sarcophagus, or Wesley might have been cautious and investigated it beforehand, with deadly results. Or Lindsey? Hmmm. That would have been interesting...
 

TriBel

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Absorbed, maybe, but still intact, deep down in there, and fighting with all the stubbornness of her Texan ancestors to regain her freedom.,
Nice - an excellent point! :) Spike calls Illyria "Blue Bonnet" in S12. Isn't that the state flower of Texas? A11 was all about Illyria and Angel's forefathers. I really appreciate the Burkles being evoked in 12.

@fauxindigo "I do accept the canon but I also take it as wishful thinking that her soul wasn't destroyed when they said it was in s5. Bringing her back in the comics just seemed like fan service".

Wasn't it men or males who said her soul had been destroyed? Everything we know about the soul comes from men...Giles, Wes, Angel, Spike....It's kinda nice to have a woman's perspective...and for the woman to prove them wrong. ;)
 
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AlphaFoxtrot

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It wouldn't have meant anything. The only reason Fred works is because 1. Everyone crushed on either Fred or Amy or both at some point, every one liked Fred, so there was a lot of emotional investment to exploit. 2. Amy Acker killed the part, going from playing a role that was pretty much nothing to a complete 180.
 

AndrewCrossett

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In the (canon) comics continuation of the series,
it turns out that Fred's soul really was still in there. She returns after the world's magic gets re-set, with her and Illyria sharing control of the body.
 

GreyWalker1958

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In the (canon) comics continuation of the series,
it turns out that Fred's soul really was still in there. She returns after the world's magic gets re-set, with her and Illyria sharing control of the body.
However....
They're both in Hell fighting monsters at the end of The Reckoning. Back to Square One for her but not alone this time"]
 
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