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Imagine, Step into the shoes of another

AngelsCordy

Townie
Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
37
Age
32
Okay, let's play a little game. And it's about I've read some comments that other users in a differently community have made fun of the situation in Season 4 with Cordelia, Angel and Connor.

Now imagine, it is your favorite woman in the fandom, who would have been in that situation what would have been your reaction to it? Would you have thought that funny or would you even be sad or angry or disappointed?

I`m not sure if that is allowed. I just wanted your opinion.
 

WillowFromBuffy

Buffering...
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
366
Age
31
I don't need to imagine that Cordelia was my favourite woman in the fandom. I am furious about S4. The whole thing is a disgrace and a great tarnish on AtS and Joss.
 

Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
Joined
Oct 17, 2017
Messages
240
Age
31
Location
Germany
I do not need to imagine it. Since Cordelia is still my favorite. And no, this season has NOT distracted me from liking her. After all these years, I still hate and despise this season.
 

NeddaSai

Potential
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
220
I think many fans, even if Cordelia wasn't thier favorite female character, felt upset by the way she was handled.. it's still a matter of contention to this day with people (rightly imo) bringing it up all the time..

Personally I hate what happened to Cordelia, in the show's timeline we haven't seen her since S3 (and classic Cordy since S2 but that's another discussion) and one episode in S5 where everyone forgets her the second she leaves doesn't count, even if it was a beautifully well-written one, hell originally it wasn't even supposed to be her episode apparently.
 

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
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Messages
15,476
Age
72
Location
rome, georgia
Swap the genders around and imagine Spike and Faith hooking up in Season 7, and watching Buffy seethe at the "other" Slayer messin' around with "her" vampire. That could have been interesting, funny, sad, tragic, or ironic, take your pick.
 

AnthonyCordova

Earth Invasion Taskforce Unlimited
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
1,996
Location
Denver, Colorado
Sineya
Captain Janeway or Aeryn Sun in Cordelia's shoes!?! I credit myself with a flexible imagination but even I can't see either one of these two as Cordelia in that situation. It would be funny if it did happen!

I liked Cordelia. Angel and Cordelia developing a relationship didn't bother me; in fact, I thought that it was kind of cute, how their friendship developed into attraction. It didn't require any imaginative leap for me to imagine how it could be plausible. I also really, really liked S4, so maybe I'm not the type of fan for whom the OP question was intended for. I agree Cordelia's character was ruthlessly assassinated by the writers in S4, but if you're going to break eggs, at least make an omelet out of it, which in my opinion, they did. A tasty, action packed omelet of edge-of-your-seat fun and drama.
 

Taake

Something Wicked This Way Comes
Staff member
Joined
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33
Location
Stockholm, Swe
Black Thorn
What I honestly find most upsetting about Connor and Cordelia is that Cordelia looks 35 and heavily pregnant, because Charisma is. So the ick factor for me is more sympathy for Charisma, and the discrepancy in age.

Now, hooking up with your friend's, and possible love interest, son is a creepy plot. But if I were to take my fave female character from the fandom - Buffy - it would at least look less creepy because Sarah didn't look as old. I also get the feeling that she'd be more capable of turning in a stellar performance, even when she disliked the plot. So I could get over the plot itself if it had been handled and acted better, really. I like soapy type drama.

But I'm also one of those who love season 4. I do fast forward through the snippet of Connor and Cordy in bed, but that's the only part of the season that's totally unbearable, and again, it has less to do with plot and more to do with everything around it.
 

WillowFromBuffy

Buffering...
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
366
Age
31
Buffy does get body snatched and has creepy sex against her will, and SMG does indeed do a stellar job, but the material she is given to perform is just so much better. The story of Faith stealing Buffy's life and having people react to her as if she was Buffy is engangagig. There is a point to it.

Jasmine's trololololol tactics are not fun, and the story has no point and purpose. After several episodes of confusing torture porn, the audience is finally let in on the joke, but there is a complete lack of a satisfying punchline. I don't think it would be any less painful to watch if Charisma was younger.
 

Bluebird

two by two, hands of blue
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
6,208
Black Thorn
I don't think anyone would want a character assassination of their favourite character, that seems a bit obvious if you like a character.

I don't have too much of a problem with the Connor and Cordelia thing, like @Taake mentioned there's a noticeable age difference because of the actors. The characters themselves aren't that far apart in age. I think the fall of Cordelia came from when she started to have Angel tunnel vision at the sacrifice of all her other friendships at the end of season 3. The scene that annoyed me the most and is super cringy is her 'healing Connor' with her dialogue 'let it go, baby' or whatever it is. Who the hell was that? She seemed to age 40 years in a few episodes and was now the smartest and wisest of them all. I hated it. Cordelia was gone from then in my eyes, but I don't hate season 4. Overall it's probably my favourite season for various other reasons past Cordelia.

Personally, I think season 3 is Cordelia's worst season for character assassination, because at least within the show season 4 Cordy wasn't truly herself but I couldn't make head nor tails of what that was in season 3, especially by the end. She wasn't possessed in season 3? Sure felt like it sometimes.
 

spikenbuffy

"You have superpowers,that's so cool,can you fly?"
Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Messages
1,304
Age
25
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France
I wouldn't mind it, I love S4, I can make a difference between Cordy and her being possessed just like I can make a difference between Angel & Angelus who aren't the same, I seriously don't know what's a character assassination about Cordy if it's not her. I only cringe at NotreallyCordy & Connor sex scene but that's all. Cordy has disapeared in S3.
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
Love the new banner.

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
6,958
Age
29
What I honestly find most upsetting about Connor and Cordelia is that Cordelia looks 35 and heavily pregnant, because Charisma is. So the ick factor for me is more sympathy for Charisma, and the discrepancy in age.

Now, hooking up with your friend's, and possible love interest, son is a creepy plot. But if I were to take my fave female character from the fandom - Buffy - it would at least look less creepy because Sarah didn't look as old.
Agreed. Also CC cutting her hair and dyeing it blonde makes her look older. Add in the fact that Cordy stopped acting like an early 20s year old and you can see the problem.

I think both shows kind of suffered this problem (though Buffy to a lesser degree visual wise). Dawn was written as a younger character but played by an older actress (and though the writers "aged" Dawn up to match the actress' age, in the early episodes you still see Dawn acting like a younger child which makes her look like a moron and really babyfied by the other characters eg having ice cream plastered around her face.

Connor suffers this as well. He looks like he should know better (especially after growing up in a hell dimension) yet he seems to be so gullible every single time. For a younger teenager, it's understandable albeit annoying, for an 18 year old or older, he just comes across as stupid and irritatingly so because his stupidity then affects the other characters.

Even the scoobies acted like late 20s/early 30s rather than early 20s and looked like it too through the clothing choices. Buffy seemed to have a "mom" look in Season 7 rather than a "22 year old" look.

Cordelia does show her age the worst because of the pregnancy (I think CC said that even her nose looked pregnant because she put on so much weight) and also because they put her with someone much younger. Had they put her with someone older, then her age probably wouldn't be as noticeable.
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
I kind of disagree but on the other hand you make a persuasive case

Bluebird

two by two, hands of blue
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
6,208
Black Thorn
The question is framed as if people think it's funny that Cordelia was written out the way she was. Is that so? Most of the fandom I know think it was pretty awful, not funny. Most people are thankfully on Charisma's side when it comes to her basically being fired for getting pregnant.

Season 4 is really contentious though, to such a degree that those that hate it find it absolutely incomprehensible that others would call it their favourite season. I find that kind of funny because loving season 4 so much you get scoffs of derision or shouts of 'why?!' as if you just admitted a secret kink. It's all good, people like different things.
 
Taake
Taake
Angel season 4 is totally my secret kink ;)

Taake

Something Wicked This Way Comes
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Black Thorn
Buffy does get body snatched and has creepy sex against her will, and SMG does indeed do a stellar job, but the material she is given to perform is just so much better. The story of Faith stealing Buffy's life and having people react to her as if she was Buffy is engangagig. There is a point to it.
I thought the question was if another character was in Cordelia's exact position. I.e. Buffy sleeping with Connor/ or her love interest's son in this case, for me. Not just any body highjacking. But for me you can only blame material for so much. There is plenty of poor material in Buffy that could've come across a lot worse if the performance had been lacking.
 
Bluebird
Bluebird
Lol you deviant!

AngelsCordy

Townie
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37
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32
Exactly, that was my idea - to imagine your own favorite woman in Cordelia's position. To look if you still find it just funny or if you still like that season. Without hostility, please.
 

Myheadsgonenumb

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I don't think 'funny' is the right word - certainly not funny 'ha ha'. Funny 'peculiar' perhaps - but peculiar is a but tame for what it is. 'creepy, gross wrong and a complete violation of a beloved character' is probably a more accurate way of putting it.
Cordelia is my favourite female character. The reasons I find the story of Connor/Cordy disturbing is because Cordelia knew Connor as a baby, she changed his diapers, he is her best friend's son - she was the closest thing he ever had to a mother - and that is how she feels about him. So my problem is that the Cordelia I love has been violated so badly by Jasmine that she is being forced to do things, against her will, that she herself would find deeply inappropriate and squicky. I don't have any problem with Connor's feelings towards her - he has no memory of her as a mother figure and he is one messed up kid just looking for a bit of kindness.

My second favourite female character is Buffy herself and - yes, if Buffy lived the same story line I would be angry that such a pivotal, well written, well rounded, independent character became nothing more than a shoddy plot device. And I would hate that the Buffy I loved was being violated by Jasmine, having her will removed and being forced to sleep with someone she didn't want to, before ending up in a coma and dying prematurely. It would be less squicky in terms of Buffy never changing Connor's diapers ... but it is still squicky that this boy was a baby just a few months ago, and it is Angel's son. Basically any grown woman - who has lived in the world and had real world experiences over decades - is squicky with a teenage boy who has grown up in a hell dimension, has very little knowledge of the world and for whom basically she is the only woman he has ever met. It's squicky because of the power differential. Connor is incredibly vulnerable in that relationship - which is why Jasmine is able to manipulate him so easily. There isn't a single woman in the world who can make this relationship OK- it's not OK.

But equally there isn't a single female character for whom it would be OK for them to get possessed, have their entire personality changed, be made to act in ways contrary to who they have been for 7 years and then get written off in a coma. That's a bad story and a bad treatment of a character.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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Messages
6,958
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Basically any grown woman - who has lived in the world and had real world experiences over decades - is squicky with a teenage boy who has grown up in a hell dimension, has very little knowledge of the world and for whom basically she is the only woman he has ever met. It's squicky because of the power differential. Connor is incredibly vulnerable in that relationship - which is why Jasmine is able to manipulate him so easily. There isn't a single woman in the world who can make this relationship OK- it's not OK.
I think this highlights the exact issue with Connor/Cordy "relationship". Although Cordy is supposed to be 22, CC is much older than that and looks it which in turn makes Cordy seem much older than she is supposed to be. Connor is barely legal at best and although VK was in his early 20s, he could pass as an 18 year old (assuming Connor was supposed to be 18 and not younger).

Add on the fact that Cordy did initially take on a mother like role, it gives an uncomfortable sense that Cordy is preying on Connor. Even though it's later revealed that Jasmine is possessing Cordy, the truth remains that for much of the season, the audience was led to believe it was Cordy doing those things and that kind of sticks in people's minds. Cordy was essentially portrayed as an abuser and that ripples out and has a massive negative impact, not just on the shipability of Cangel (which was on dodgy ground to begin with), but on Cordelia's character as a whole.
 
Myheadsgonenumb
Myheadsgonenumb
That's it exactly! The story line turns Cordelia into a sexual predator and that perception can't easily be shaken. And that was a rotten thing to do to both Cordy and Charisma.
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