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Is Doppelgangland a plot hole?

DeadlyDuo

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In The Wish, Cordy wishes Buffy never came to Sunnydale which creates the Wishverse which is an alternate timeline where Willow and Xander are vampires and Cordy and the three main scoobies die.. However when Wishverse Giles smashes Anyanka's amulet, we're led to believe that the wish is undone and the Wishverse ceases to exist, especially given the fact that we're taken right back to the moment where Cordy makes the wish in the first place and nobody (except Anya has any memory of the Wishverse).

So if the Wishverse is undone, how can Anya and Willow try and retrieve Anya's necklace from an alternate reality that isn't supposed to exist, likewise with vampire Willow. Either this is a massive plot hole or the Wishverse residents are doomed to repeat the same events we saw in The Wish over and over again, constantly restarting the time periods at the points of their deaths (which means Vampire Willow is going to spend every day being staked) and Anya and Willow just hopped in on one of these replays which is why vampire Willow was brought through to the real world.

Thoughts?.
 

nightshade

Headless chicken
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Black Thorn
Did Anya get another necklace after Hells Bells? If so why wasn't it just destroyed again to stop Anya instead of killing Halfrek?

Sorry no answers just more questions!
 

genghiskhan

God doesn't want you
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Black Thorn
I thought the necklace allowed her to travel from reality to reality (bringing Cordy with her) and breaking it brought her back into the normal reality. I thought the alternate reality always existed afterwards but Anya lost connection with it.
 

white avenger

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I don't believe that the necklace was ever retrieved from the Wishverse, but simply destroying it in that reality wouldn't mean the end of that reality. Even though we are returned to the primary Buffyverse when it was destroyed, that was just from the story line point of view.

If we use the "Avengers Endgame" explanation of how parallel universes are formed, removing Anya's necklace from their reality created the Wishverse, true, but the only way to eliminate that universe would be to return the necklace to the Buffyverse AT THE EXACT MOMENT THAT IT WAS REMOVED IN THE FIRST PLACE. Since that obviously didn't happen, both the Buffyverse and the Wishverse continue to coexist independently, and would probably continue to become more and more dissimilar as time passes.

(That would probably also explain how the Buffyverse exists independently of the universe (maybe our own reality) where Buffy is a normal girl, mentally deluded into believing that she is a Slayer living in a world inhabited by demons, werewolves, and vampires. Buffy wasn't traveling back and forth between those two realities, the Buffy's in those two universes were somehow developed some sort of temporary psychic bond.)
 

NeddaSai

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Assuming there's a timeline specific for the doppelgangland reality, I imagined there was some sort of time travel going where the spell honed in on that timeline and they went back to the time before Giles smashed the necklace, and grabbed VampWillow.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Anya's knowledge of magic exceeds both her skill and wisdom. My guess would be that there are a number of higher demons who live in Ultimate Chaos, where things like linear time and cause and effect are just illusions temporarily imposed on creation by gods for the benefit of the animals. They should be capable of fishing nothing out of nowhere.
 

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
If you follow the Rwasundi demons in Dead Things, you know demons can cause shifts in time.

Then look at what Cordelia wishes for: she wished that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale. The wish itself contains an element of something in the past not happening, so the execution of that wish requires time to be taken back to that point. This wish was not automatically going to repeat because it was for the change of a timeline only once in the past. Before Cordelia makes her wish, Anya takes off the amulet and hangs it on Cordelia's neck so as soon as the timeline shifts, the necklace is lost. When Cordelia is killed by Vamp!Willow and Vamp!Xander, she still has the pendant on and Giles keeps it and determines that it belongs to Anyanka. Giles does some research and says:

GILES
Aha! Here.
(paraphrases)
In order to defeat Anyanka, one must destroy her power center. This should reverse all the wishes she has granted, rendering her mortal and powerless again.
(to Buffy)
You see, without her power center she'll be just an ordinary woman again and all this will be different.

Giles performs a spell to summon Anyanka and she appears, complete with threats against him. She is wearing a copy of the amulet. Giles rips it off her and smashes it, ending the alternate timeline and returning to the present timeline that we have all been following from the beginning but starting at the point Cordelia makes the wish. Later on, Anyanka requests Willow's help to get the necklace (presumably the one she put on Cordelia), but it is nowhere to be found because it was her power centre and it was smashed. Anya remembers the necklace because she always had it, even before the shift in timeline, but it does not exist anymore in this timeline. I don't see a plot hole here.
 

thrasherpix

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While not particularly relevant, let me just take the time to point out that in retrospect I found it hilarious that Giles had a much easier time defeating Anyanka (even got to smack her across the room) than Buffy would in season 7.
 

DeadlyDuo

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This should reverse all the wishes she has granted, rendering her mortal and powerless again.
Cordelia's wish created the Wishverse, therefore if all of Anyanka's wishes are reversed, that includes the wishverse. The wishverse should cease to exist once the amulet is smashed hence why the audience was thrown back to the moment Cordelia made the wish and Anya being unable to grant it. Also given the fact that everyone is still alive, particularly Cordelia suggests time was undone. It was normal Cordelia that was transported to the Wishverse. If the wish that made the wishverse wasn't granted (hence the throwback to Cordy making the wish) then how can the wishverse continue to exist in Doppelgangland?

Either it's a plot hole and it shouldn't exist, or it is now an independent indefinite time loop that starts and ends from where Cordelia made her wish to where Giles smashes the amulet. If that is the case, it means Vampire Willow is going to keep reliving the events that end with her death, possibly for the rest of eternity.
 

Tank1978

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If there are an infinite number of parallel universes then the spell might simply have been to switch cordy's soul/consciousness with the cordy from the wishverse universe which also explains why she would know none of the rules. Once the amulet was broken and the spell reversed it reversed it from the point it was cast meaning the events in the wishverse never took place, a bit like in I will remember you where those events never took place. In the Buffyverse a load of stuff would also have happened probably with a confused cordy telling everyone about curfews and people laughing at her! Again that all didn't take place after the spell was reversed.

If this is how it happened then both buffyverse and wishverse continue to exist alongside each other both before and after the spell.
 

Ceadsearc03

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We know there are all kinds of AUs, like the world without shrimp. I feel more like Cordy’s wish swapped the “primary” reality and smashing the amulet undid it, more than that it actually erased everything.

Or at least that’s my best theory, because otherwise that’s a gaping plot hole for a season that I would assume was mostly mapped out by that point.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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While not particularly relevant, let me just take the time to point out that in retrospect I found it hilarious that Giles had a much easier time defeating Anyanka (even got to smack her across the room) than Buffy would in season 7.
Indeed!

He won because he used KNOWLEDGE. Powerful beings often are defeated by things they don't expect.

Scary monster Al Capone went to jail for tax evasion, not the horrible stuff he did to people. Buffy 'powerful being', assumed violence would work and charged in. It's a mistake often made in fights, and the reason the big guy doesn't always win. Giles knew he didn't stand a chance with force. All the white hats in the slayerless universe had to use their wits, though, of course, some of them died.

Thankfully, Buffy didn't always depend purely on her physical prowess... IMO, those are often her best moments.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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My understanding is that the Vengeance Demon Clan was subject to rules, like all good genies, and are way into legalism. Anya mentioned the Lower Beings, D'Hoffryn mentioned the Fates etc. Odds are, only the most recent wish, or the wish Giles was attempting to undo was undone, rather than a blanket reversal.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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In The Wish, Cordy wishes Buffy never came to Sunnydale which creates the Wishverse which is an alternate timeline where Willow and Xander are vampires and Cordy and the three main scoobies die.. However when Wishverse Giles smashes Anyanka's amulet, we're led to believe that the wish is undone and the Wishverse ceases to exist, especially given the fact that we're taken right back to the moment where Cordy makes the wish in the first place and nobody (except Anya has any memory of the Wishverse).

So if the Wishverse is undone, how can Anya and Willow try and retrieve Anya's necklace from an alternate reality that isn't supposed to exist, likewise with vampire Willow. Either this is a massive plot hole or the Wishverse residents are doomed to repeat the same events we saw in The Wish over and over again, constantly restarting the time periods at the points of their deaths (which means Vampire Willow is going to spend every day being staked) and Anya and Willow just hopped in on one of these replays which is why vampire Willow was brought through to the real world.

Thoughts?.
I think time forked when Cordy wished and she was returned to the pre-fork reality when the power center was broken... And when Willow and Anya did the time fold spell... they created a time fold... like the oracles did when the rewound the day in Angel... so they basically wound time back to a moment of that 'forked' reality... allowing the two realities to come back into contact at the point where Willow was and she got sucked out. when they 'send her back' she returns to that reality... which sadly is probably going pearshaped... and probably won't last since demonkind has overrun sunnydale and is working on the rest of the planet... I think of it like the Quantum Mirror realities from Stargate... which if you haven't seen may not mean much... basically the theory is that there are a bunch of closely abutting realities that run parallel with this one and as you go further afield, the realities gets more and more different... some are happier and some are sadder than ours... It doesn't say how those realities are created.

I personally like the idea that there may be realities where I am a musician, author and brain surgeon with a lovely blond husband (who still has all his hair at 60) and four happy children who are all creative and fun... but... then again, that means there's probably one where I am 1000lbs and die at 28...
 

DeadlyDuo

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Odds are, only the most recent wish, or the wish Giles was attempting to undo was undone, rather than a blanket reversal.
But the wishverse was the most recent wish. The fact that time jumped back to Cordy making her wish after the amulet was destroyed suggests that the wishverse was undone, in which case how are ANya and WIllow able to go to the wishverse and pull out Vampire Willow?
 
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AlphaFoxtrot
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