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Is it possible Cordelia would have taken the Wolfram & Hart offer?

slayer730

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I was thinking about the role of Cordelia in season 4 and wondered about a hypothetical scenario. If the writers made it so that she woke up at the end of the world peace arc do you guys think would she have a different position on the Wolfram & Hart offer? The Powers that Be in the show often functioned as unseen beings that used Cordelia to give the gang visions so they could help people, but Jasmine took it one step further and hijacked her body to meet her goal of world peace. I know Cordy had somewhat grown and by the end of season 3 became a lot more selfless than her Sunnydale years and was devoted to fighting the greater good, but Jasmine essentially used her body in a way without little regard for consent. Is it possible that Cordelia even after all of her development would feel some type of way about that and take W&H on their offer due to feeling betrayed? What do you guys think?
 

white avenger

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One way or another, I think that Cordy would have gone along with the move, though probably reluctantly. Moving Angel into the W&H headquarters was probably something that Joss had planned before the trouble with Charisma's unannounced pregnancy ever came up.
 

slayer730

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One way or another, I think that Cordy would have gone along with the move, though probably reluctantly. Moving Angel into the W&H headquarters was probably something that Joss had planned before the trouble with Charisma's unannounced pregnancy ever came up.
I'm not actually sure if he did come up with that in advance. From my understanding season 4 did so much damage to the viewership it was thought up as a means to reboot the show and try to regain interest. As far as Charisma's pregnancy though, I think if she did wake up and saw the offer they were given I think it would be a mix between reluctance given who W&H are as well as motivated by feeling betrayed by how the PTB (or at lest Jasmine) used her.
 

white avenger

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I'm not actually sure if he did come up with that in advance. From my understanding season 4 did so much damage to the viewership it was thought up as a means to reboot the show and try to regain interest.
I thought that I read somewhere Joss saying that the move to W&H had been planned out well in advance, but I can't find the quote now, so you're probably right.
 

Bluebird

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Cordelia became a bit of a representation of those people out there who needed Angel's help. Not just because of the pilot but because she is a pseudo avatar for the helpless in her visions, she knows and feels what they're going through. I get that from the start she becomes the (still abrasive) heart of the group. So on one hand I can see her saying no to the deal, but on the other hand I'd hope she would take it cos I hated the toned down, no sense of humour or fun, Saint Cordy of later seasons, when they forgot how to give her perspective and a heart without losing all her snark.
 

Taake

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Wolfram & Hart could let her keep her visions and be a Cordy! tv-star at the same time, so sure, I can see her get as wrapped up in the deal as the rest of them. She gets what she always wanted + to help the helpless. It's "Birthday" without the obvious consequences (like Angel going insane). Without Saint CordyJasmine I don't see what would've made her drastically different by the end of season 4, from mid-season 3. Of course, she might've been one of the first to get that the deal wasn't worth it, but I think she'd be enticed just like the rest of them.
 
GreyWalker1958
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+Lorne as her agent

thetopher

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Sure, they just would've made her a TV star & fashionista as well as offering to help with the painful vision side effects (assuming that S3 Birthday and Jasdelia never happened or had in some way been reversed).
I think she would've been swayed in the end, like everyone else, hell she was tempted by some of the stuff in 'You're Welcome' which I thought was very in-character.

Cordelia very much desired the trappings that came with money all the way through S1 and 2 and, whilst she came to value the purpose that the visions gave her, I don't ever think she would be dismissive of something that could give her access to money and resources that she had never really stopped wanting.

However, she WOULD still have kept her cynical attitude towards W&H and their reasons for the offer, just as she would also have kept the hubris that would lead her to think that she could use their resources for good, because 'she is Cordelia and she knows best'.
 

brinkster130

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I think it would have been interesting to see W&H try and win Cordy over. I think she ultimately would have gone along with it whatever the bribe, mostly because the rest of the gang did.
 

slayer730

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Wolfram & Hart could let her keep her visions and be a Cordy! tv-star at the same time, so sure, I can see her get as wrapped up in the deal as the rest of them. She gets what she always wanted + to help the helpless. It's "Birthday" without the obvious consequences (like Angel going insane). Without Saint CordyJasmine I don't see what would've made her drastically different by the end of season 4, from mid-season 3. Of course, she might've been one of the first to get that the deal wasn't worth it, but I think she'd be enticed just like the rest of them.


Sure, they just would've made her a TV star & fashionista as well as offering to help with the painful vision side effects (assuming that S3 Birthday and Jasdelia never happened or had in some way been reversed).
I think she would've been swayed in the end, like everyone else, hell she was tempted by some of the stuff in 'You're Welcome' which I thought was very in-character.

Cordelia very much desired the trappings that came with money all the way through S1 and 2 and, whilst she came to value the purpose that the visions gave her, I don't ever think she would be dismissive of something that could give her access to money and resources that she had never really stopped wanting.

However, she WOULD still have kept her cynical attitude towards W&H and their reasons for the offer, just as she would also have kept the hubris that would lead her to think that she could use their resources for good, because 'she is Cordelia and she knows best'.
I don't know if Cordelia would have been phased by a TV/fashionista offer. She seemed to have gotten over that dream at the end of season 2 before she went to Pylea. With that being said I do think she could have been tempted with the resources of the facility and a second in command position to Angel with her own department. What department that would be though i'm not sure, but it would be interesting because If Cordy was in that season then that means Spike more than likely wouldn't have been which would probably give the season an entirely new feel.
 

Taake

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I don't know if Cordelia would have been phased by a TV/fashionista offer. She seemed to have gotten over that dream at the end of season 2 before she went to Pylea.
Fait enough, but she was tempted with a tv-show in season 3, so, I disagree that she let go off that dream. She just accepted it couldnt happen with her having visions too.
 

thetopher

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With that being said I do think she could have been tempted with the resources of the facility and a second in command position to Angel with her own department. What department that would be though i'm not sure
Probably client relations or something along those lines, Cordelia can be quite personable when she wants to be be.
Also maybe out actively pursuing a decent clientele..

Or heck, just give her Lorne's department; entertainment. Because its there is an utterly superfluous character in Season 5 its...well, Harmony actually. But also Lorne.
 

thrasherpix

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I think she would...but she wouldn't be her normal self. She'd be traumatized, and betrayed by the Powers. In fact, if she was still having visions, she might make it part of the deal that her connection be severed. Given everything she'd been through even before Jasmine, I can see why.

To make it work story-wise, I'd have to see her cold after all that she'd been put through, and questioning her role in the greater scheme of things, if it matters, and if Wolfram & Hart really are the lesser evil (or at least honest when it comes to their ethics with their employees, unlike the Higher Powers). She'd work through it by the end, but without the visions she'd be as convinced of how corrupt Angel had gotten as well (and might be interesting to hear her comment to the others on the difference between Corrupt Angel mad with power vs Angelus the demonic artist of terror and pain).

Though I have a hard time seeing her in the final battle...and I'd absolutely despised it beyond my ability to express if Angel made HER the sacrifice to the Black Thorn instead. Perhaps she'd retain some "quasi-demon" aspects from her time as Vision Girl that would allow her to use powerful magic (and she showed she could use a sword)...and perhaps she'd die, giving the same smile of relief that Buffy did in The Gift, or maybe she'd live and finally, for the first time in that season, have her old spark back with sword in hand (that's actually kinda awesome to me) when Angel says, "Let's Go to work."


Now if Cordy was instead still gung ho to do good, perhaps more determined than ever (though after what she'd been through I just don't see it), she'd do it as an infiltrator, like a spy for the Higher Powers. However, the Senior Partners would surely have ways to subvert or hinder any such visions. Hell, they'd (or more specifically, those they called in, I guess as a consultant) did so twice already, both times really extreme. She might also have horrific visions of Gunn in Hell. And how would her visions affect the matter of Illyria?

Frankly, I prefer the former.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Anything's possible. But Cordie's whole gimmick is that she was Angel's conduit to the Powers that be. She would probably have the same reaction the rest of the Scoobies did.
 

slayer730

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I think she would...but she wouldn't be her normal self. She'd be traumatized, and betrayed by the Powers. In fact, if she was still having visions, she might make it part of the deal that her connection be severed. Given everything she'd been through even before Jasmine, I can see why.

To make it work story-wise, I'd have to see her cold after all that she'd been put through, and questioning her role in the greater scheme of things, if it matters, and if Wolfram & Hart really are the lesser evil (or at least honest when it comes to their ethics with their employees, unlike the Higher Powers). She'd work through it by the end, but without the visions she'd be as convinced of how corrupt Angel had gotten as well (and might be interesting to hear her comment to the others on the difference between Corrupt Angel mad with power vs Angelus the demonic artist of terror and pain).

Though I have a hard time seeing her in the final battle...and I'd absolutely despised it beyond my ability to express if Angel made HER the sacrifice to the Black Thorn instead. Perhaps she'd retain some "quasi-demon" aspects from her time as Vision Girl that would allow her to use powerful magic (and she showed she could use a sword)...and perhaps she'd die, giving the same smile of relief that Buffy did in The Gift, or maybe she'd live and finally, for the first time in that season, have her old spark back with sword in hand (that's actually kinda awesome to me) when Angel says, "Let's Go to work."


Now if Cordy was instead still gung ho to do good, perhaps more determined than ever (though after what she'd been through I just don't see it), she'd do it as an infiltrator, like a spy for the Higher Powers. However, the Senior Partners would surely have ways to subvert or hinder any such visions. Hell, they'd (or more specifically, those they called in, I guess as a consultant) did so twice already, both times really extreme. She might also have horrific visions of Gunn in Hell. And how would her visions affect the matter of Illyria?

Frankly, I prefer the former.
I think from a writing perspective, in order for Cordy to be a part of the W&H rebooted format she would have to lose the visions somehow because like you said it'd be difficult to have big surprise events like Illyria. I'm not sure how believable it'd be to have W&H have the ability to remove visions as a part of negotiating a contact for her though, especially for an ability that they didn't give her to begin with. I think the writers would have probably came up with another way where the Jasmine removed all of her supernatural abilities and instead of being an entity that drained her actually healed her while inside of her.

I also think I remember the writers saying they either got tired of the vision format with the MOTW or were having difficulty continuing writing for it so its definitely possible that even if Cordy did stay she would have lost those visions at some point. It'd be an interesting character arc to see her lose something she learn to embrace because it helped her help others and feeling lost and betrayed to turn to W&H's resources to try and do the same thing. Spike was a nice addition to season 5, but his character very much had wrapped up on Buffy, so it would have been nice to see Cordelia take his place.
 

Cohen

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I would have liked to see Joss’ original plan for season 4. Pregnant Cordy/baby daddy Conner was horrible and disgusting. The whole situation was poorly handled. I was fine with the evil Cordy storyline but without the Cordy/Conner sex and pregnancy. That said, had she survived the ordeal, I still think Cordy would have a tough time being coaxed by W&H. They literally put her through hell for the better part of 4 years. Let’s not forget it was W&H behind her vision coma in the season 1 finale, Angel’s spiral in season 2, and her vision hell in season 3. These aren’t small happenings in her life. Each of these affected her deeply. Like another post mentioned, Cordy was very much the heart of the group. I don’t think she would have been as easily swayed as some have claimed here. She wasn’t a saint, but she wasn’t an idiot either.
 
AlphaFoxtrot
AlphaFoxtrot
I kinda wish Dark Horse would have done a rewrite series, where the seasons most affected by production problems were shown as "intended."

slayer730

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I would have liked to see Joss’ original plan for season 4. Pregnant Cordy/baby daddy Conner was horrible and disgusting. The whole situation was poorly handled. I was fine with the evil Cordy storyline but without the Cordy/Conner sex and pregnancy. That said, had she survived the ordeal, I still think Cordy would have a tough time being coaxed by W&H. They literally put her through hell for the better part of 4 years. Let’s not forget it was W&H behind her vision coma in the season 1 finale, Angel’s spiral in season 2, and her vision hell in season 3. These aren’t small happenings in her life. Each of these affected her deeply. Like another post mentioned, Cordy was very much the heart of the group. I don’t think she would have been as easily swayed as some have claimed here. She wasn’t a saint, but she wasn’t an idiot either.
The original season 4 plan is one of the biggest mysteries we'll never know and theres so many questions about it. If Cordelia did go evil as planned then what would be her motivation to do that? Also what would the end of that season look like if they had that supposed sword battle scene between Angel and Cordelia? Would Angel have really killed her? The fate of Cordelia after season 4 always seemed like they were moving toward shifting the show drastically especially with her character.
 
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