Is Lorne a champion like everyone else on the team?

[Bad Boy Irish]

i thought i would make this thread for people to talk about wether or not they think Lorne should call me himself a champion. Sure many, many, many times he says himslef that he is not a champion but i have to disagree i think he is he has helped Angel and they team many many times and this alone makes him a champion.

Just because he is not physicaly strong like every one else does not make him a champion, he uses his demon abiltys to help just like every one else uses wat they have to bring into the team.

So i hope you all enjoy discussing this topic like i do with my mates and i hope you all agree with me!!

 

[anyatara]

In my opinion, I think he is. He works with the Angel Investigations team for years, which makes him a champion. And think about it, he's a demon from Pylea, but he's not evil, he should have been, but he's not, that alone doesn't make him a champion, I know, but he used his powers to help people; thus I think that makes him a champion.

 

[Dancing man]

I disagree with the word champion I see that as someone who takes an active role for a long period of time. Lorne is a hero, someone who does a lot of good deeds but doesnt really stick his neck out like everyone else. He hasnt tryed to better himself for the good vs evil battle like other Angel members did.

 

[Bad Boy Irish]

Of course he didnt have to better himself because really from the start he was never really dead set evil sure he is a demon, but he does good in many many ways.

What makes hima true champion is that he does what he can to help fight Good vs Evil, i know he doesnt stick his neck out but thats not his stlye.

 

[Allycat]

I think Buffy obsessed Fan brings up a good point with the difference between hero and champion. I think it's very hard to answer that one. Since in A:AtF we have seen that the Lords of Hell all have their own Champions, we must assume that this title is not limited to good guys. Anyway, that's a sidetrack for the discussion here.

Cause I'm assuming what Bad Boy Irish wants to discuss is whether Lorne is as much of a hero as Angel or Spike.

I think that for the longest time I think he wasn't; he only ever took on a supportive role in fighting evil. And I don't think he did it because he had such a strong sense of right and wrong, but he did it because he friends were doing it.


On the other hand, what he did for the people of Silverlake in First Night, Part I was really heroic... although there still seemed to be some degree of reluctance on his part.

 

[T.I.P]

Lorne isnt a champion, come on now, we cant just be throwing the word 'champion' around like that.
There were only a few real champions on the show(s), and as much as Lorne is the best character on Ats, he aint a champion.

 

[MSchett]

Why isn't he? He fought evil, it may have been in a different way then most the gang, but he still helped the helpless. I think that everyone on AI is a champion, without the team Angel/Spike would have no chance. Lorne constantly keeps Angel on track. Lorne may not fight in most the fights, but he shows up when hes really needed. He is definately a champion.

 

[Revolver]

Spike wasn't considered a champion until he sacrificed himself at the end of "Chosen" and he'd certainly helped before that. Pretty much all of the main characters have helped fight evil. Are they all champions or does the term champion imply more than that? Xander talked Willow out of destorying the world. Is he a champion? Fred? Giles? Connor? How much does one have to help to be considered a champion?

 

[white avenger]

In midieval times, the Champion was the warrior designated by the king, queen, baron, lord, or whatever to defend their commander's honor and protect the realm from all challengers (See Charlton Heston in "El Cid"). As such, he had to be the greatest hero in the land. That, to me at least, implies that the designation of "champion" is a specific honor and not a blanket designation. I agree with Dancing Man. Lorne was a hero, but he wasn't a champion.

 

[sibby]

He is a champion. A cute green one.

 

[itsxpaperdoll]

Spike wasn't considered a champion until he sacrificed himself at the end of "Chosen" and he'd certainly helped before that. Pretty much all of the main characters have helped fight evil. Are they all champions or does the term champion imply more than that? Xander talked Willow out of destorying the world. Is he a champion? Fred? Giles? Connor? How much does one have to help to be considered a champion?

That ^ is more or less what I was thinking.

Lorne has fought evil, he's done good, all that. But there's more to being a champion than fighting evil. Spike and Angel were champions because they died to save the world, went through torture and hell to become better men. As far as I know, Lorne didn't, and therefore he may be cool, a hero, cute or green, but not a champion.

 

[Chartreuse]

Yes, Lorne who was not a killer and in fact very empathic to all others made the decision to stand with his team for the greater good and killed Lindsey. Total champion.

 

[Mr Trick]

Champion seems too much of a label. But I'd say Lorne very much plays his part for the team. Its just more in an understated way like Oz and Xander did over on Buffy.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Champion is a word that goes back to the Greeks and Romans where a champion had a specific purpose. If a group of any size from patrol to division were at war with each other, they could all fight or they could each select a champion and agree to follow the fate of their champion. If you had, say, a champion from the Greeks fighting the champion from the Romans, the winning champion would win for his side and the side who sent in the loser would agree to be imprisoned or enslaved. In a world where a major war would have ~40% casualties, this was one way to ensure there would be more survivors.

 

[Spanish Flame]

Believe it or not, after reading all your comments I had to search for each definition because I wasn't sure what we were talking about. lol

After searching I must say that Lorne is a Hero not a champion. I love Lorne and I wished he was champion but as far as the definition of champion, he is not.

Champion: a person who defends a person or cause,
(formerly) a warrior or knight who did battle for another, esp a king or queen, to defend their rights or honour (Read yourself: champion | Definition, meaning & more | Collins Dictionary )

So despite Lorne helps and he is part of the team to fight, he is not warrior what I consider a champion is. Despite he is a Hero because he does many heroics but not as a warrior but using other abilities that makes him our Hero, cute and green. Not a champion.

Definition for hero:
a man distinguished by exceptional courage, nobility, fortitude, etc
2. a man who is idealized for possessingsuperior qualities in any field
3. classical mythology a being of extraordinarystrength and courage, often the offspring of a mortal and a god, who is celebrated for his exploits Link: hero | Definition, meaning & more | Collins Dictionary

Though I have to confess in my heart, Lorne is also a champion, not only my Hero !

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I don't think he had a calling from the Powers, no more than I think Xander was a Slayer.

 

[nmcil12]

Lorne isnt a champion, come on now, we cant just be throwing the word 'champion' around like that.
There were only a few real champions on the show(s), and as much as Lorne is the best character on Ats, he aint a champion.

I think this Champion identification was created specifically for Angel to give him an anchor point for his self-identification and support for his taking on his "redemption path." As such, the title/description is not the same application for the other characters. Lorne, Cordelia, Gunn, Wesley, Fred they all fought against the Doers of Evil and Forces of the Dark. I prefer the id of Heroic Warriors in the Angelverse - the "champion" id to me is one that is connected with the titled being bestowed, in this series, by a supernatural life force or beings.

The other character that I would use "champion" for would be Buffy and the Chosen Ones. As for Angel, I think a lot of the "champion" identification is something that he very much needed to make his life easier to accept with his history as Angelus.

Lorne is most certainly in my category of heroic warriors - and more importantly for me he is a metaphor/symbol of the inherent goodness and development of life - he rejected the brutality of his natural culture and world to instead follow his life that wanted and needed an alternative to the violence, killings and subjugation of classes to create a slave class.

It's an important connection that Lorne rejects any further association with Angel after he is given the duty to kill Lindsey - to me it is Lorne being forced into going against his free will choice not to embrace violence as a part of his life. How much Lorne in AtF directly reflects what Joss Whedon had planned for his LA in Hell - wish there had been more information on how closely the comic book season matched the original TV series plans.

Lorne actually became my favorite character of the Angel series along with Wesley - I don't include Spike because he was firmly established in the Buffy series and came over only for the last TV season.