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JM quitting Angel and not being in S6

Btvs fan

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Just read on another forum that James Masters was feuding backstage with Producer Kelly Manners and that it was getting so bad he was going to ask Joss to let him out of his contract. Then the cancellation happened, so it became mute anyway.

Got me thinking would Spike have been killed off again or simply left or what ?
And What was the feud about does anyone know ?
 

Taake

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I've never heard of this so I'd be keen to know myself. I would guess that if it had come to that Spike would have left, I don't think they would've killed him off, either he would've gone to find Buffy or gone off to be a rogue demon hunter a la Wesley (though slightly more convincing in an all leather outfit :p )
 

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I've never heard of this so I'd be keen to know myself. I would guess that if it had come to that Spike would have left, I don't think they would've killed him off, either he would've gone to find Buffy or gone off to be a rogue demon hunter a la Wesley (though slightly more convincing in an all leather outfit :p )
I knew he and Kelly Manners didn't get along. JM and Charisma Carpenter are doing a convention (it's on YouTube) and JM does an impression if a producer he had problems with "don't give a hoot just shoot shoot shoot" and Charisma says that's exactly like Kelly and JM worriedly says "dont say his name". I'm just curious about what the feud was about ?
 

Angel6

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Well he told an anecdote of shooting the scene where it’s implied Spike and Angel have had a sexual encounter in S5, on the recent Buffering interview. He implied that David wasn’t particularly interested in analysing the content of the scene and when he said ‘woah David does that mean that we...’ he just went ‘whatever, just get on with it shoot the scene’. Maybe I’m reading too much into it but I got the sense he felt like the rest of the cast and crew weren’t super invested?
 

Btvs fan

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Well he told an anecdote of shooting the scene where it’s implied Spike and Angel have had a sexual encounter in S5, on the recent Buffering interview. He implied that David wasn’t particularly interested in analysing the content of the scene and when he said ‘woah David does that mean that we...’ he just went ‘whatever, just get on with it shoot the scene’. Maybe I’m reading too much into it but I got the sense he felt like the rest of the cast and crew weren’t super invested?
Vincent Karthiser said something similar about his time on S4. That they thought the show might be cancelled (and it was close) so no one really cared and it was just a case of say the lines and get it done.
He was also bored because he was basically doing the same line/routine with Angel and Cordy.

Maybe JM felt the same way.
 
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No way would James have left. He was unhappy with a lot of things in the later seasons of Buffy and if that didn't make him jump ship, a tiff with a Producer on Angel wouldn't. James would have played Spike forever. He knows it's his bread and butter.

I think it got to a point where even James was buying into the Spike hype. I wonder if Kelly knocked him down a peg and James took offence.

As for if the cast was losing interest, who could blame them? Season 4 was a shitfest and in season 5 everyone was told to take a step back to fit Spike in. There wasn't much to be excited about.
 

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No way would James have left. He was unhappy with a lot of things in the later seasons of Buffy and if that didn't make him jump ship, a tiff with a Producer on Angel wouldn't. James would have played Spike forever. He knows it's his bread and butter.

I think it got to a point where even James was buying into the Spike hype. I wonder if Kelly knocked him down a peg and James took offence.

As for if the cast was losing interest, who could blame them? Season 4 was a shitfest and in season 5 everyone was told to take a step back to fit Spike in. There wasn't much to be excited about.
But why does Spike coming in have to be a negative? He was a popular character who up to that point had only appeared once on Angel (besides flashbacks). It opened up some fresh story possibilities.

What I will say is if Masters didn't get on with that producer he really must have been a shit!:p
 
B
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But why does Spike coming in have to be a negative? He was a popular character who up to that point had only appeared once on Angel (besides flashbacks). It opened up some fresh story possibilities.

What I will say is if Masters didn't get on with that producer he really must have been a shit!:p
Spike being on the show is fine. It's the pushing Angels crew back to fit Spike in next to Angel thats neg. Like you said, Spike had only been in one episode. He didn't do any of the work in building the show.

The fresh story possibilities you talk of would have been much more interesting then the same old, same old, where the writers continually stop the plot so Spike could throw out some useless line to remind people he was still there.
 
W

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James is nothing if not a team player. He burnt his hand, scorched his scalp, delivered a haunting performance in "Seeing Red" that caused him no small amount of psychic pain, sang his heart out in "Once More" and did several painful and dangerous stunts.

And he talks about Spike with much more insight than I've seen any other of the actors do. Most of the other just offer empty platitudes when they're on the convention circuit. James could have been a BB member.
 

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Spike being on the show is fine. It's the pushing Angels crew back to fit Spike in next to Angel thats neg. Like you said, Spike had only been in one episode. He didn't do any of the work in building the show.

The fresh story possibilities you talk of would have been much more interesting then the same old, same old, where the writers continually stop the plot so Spike could throw out some useless line to remind people he was still there.
I'm gonna disagree with you here. From E2 through to Destiny when he's recoporilised he really doesn't do much. He just shows up for the contractual scene per episode.
Then with the exception of Soul Purpose (due to David directing and being injured) and Damage story plot and screen time wise he really is no bigger than the rest of the cast (and that includes That Girl in Question) . I don't think he took over the show at all.
 
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I'm gonna disagree with you here. From E2 through to Destiny when he's recoporilised he really doesn't do much. He just shows up for the contractual scene per episode.
Then with the exception of Soul Purpose (due to David directing and being injured) and Damage story plot and screen time wise he really is no bigger than the rest of the cast (and that includes That Girl in Question) . I don't think he took over the show at all.
I meant in terms of how the show was promoted. Like you said though, he really doesn't do much, but they still push back other charaters because Spike has to have second billing.

And yes i know he was a popular character that came from Buffy but i was replying to why the cast might have lost interest by S5
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

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I meant in terms of how the show was promoted. Like you said though, he really doesn't do much, but they still push back other charaters because Spike has to have second billing.
But the show needed Spike's popularity. S4 was deservedly poorly received. BtVS had just ended, so Spike was the perfect way to get BtVS fans that were ambivalent towards AtS to come on board. The show had just axed one of its BtVS alumni in a manner that probably alienated many fans.

And if you're going to compromise, it is best to do it in the promotion rather than the show itself.
 

Btvs fan

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But the show needed Spike's popularity. S4 was deservedly poorly received. BtVS had just ended, so Spike was the perfect way to get BtVS fans that were ambivalent towards AtS to come on board. The show had just axed one of its BtVS alumni in a manner that probably alienated many fans.

And if you're going to compromise, it is best to do it in the promotion rather than the show itself.
@Thieving gypsy

There were also issues with the other characters that had nothing to do with Spike anyway. I can only speak for myself but I didn't find Fred interesting at all until she became Illyria. I could never think of a motivation for her to join Wolfram and Hart and it was the same for Lorne too. Neither should've been there.
As for making Harmony a regular.....
Gunn and Wes arcs were still great soon complaints there though.
 
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Mr Trick

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I just think there was more room to explore Angel and Spike on screen together, but with the twist that their both fighting on the good side. Like others have said Spike is interacting with the other main cast. Its not like he has whole plots when its just him which takes away from the other characters screen time.

It wouldn't have mattered if they didn't have Spike, but I think he made a good addition to the cast.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Spike was actually the life support machine. Angel only got a Season 5 on the condition that Spike was brought over hence the heavy promotion of his character.

The producer must be a real dickhead to clash with JM like that. JM tends to like everybody.
 

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Spike was actually the life support machine. Angel only got a Season 5 on the condition that Spike was brought over hence the heavy promotion of his character.
I keep seeing this thrown around. There is no evidence that this is true and I have read a number of BTS stuff from the Angel renewal. They did pitch Spike as well as Joss coming back to take the reins as well as a many other things. I don't disagree that Spike coming over was a draw to his fans (and some btvs fans) I just think this hyperbole of 'if not for Spike no ats s5' has become a spike-stan favorite argument point when there really is no evidence to support that.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

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I keep seeing this thrown around. There is no evidence that this is true and I have read a number of BTS stuff from the Angel renewal. They did pitch Spike as well as Joss coming back to take the reins as well as a many other things. I don't disagree that Spike coming over was a draw to his fans (and some btvs fans) I just think this hyperbole of 'if not for Spike no ats s5' has become a spike-stan favorite argument point when there really is no evidence to support that.
But AtS purists love to describe Spike and James as some pariah, when it should be obvious that the Buffyverse needed to pull its resources to survive a year of the weakest seasons of both shows.
 
Angel6
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I don’t think that’s true’

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I keep seeing this thrown around. There is no evidence that this is true and I have read a number of BTS stuff from the Angel renewal. They did pitch Spike as well as Joss coming back to take the reins as well as a many other things. I don't disagree that Spike coming over was a draw to his fans (and some btvs fans) I just think this hyperbole of 'if not for Spike no ats s5' has become a spike-stan favorite argument point when there really is no evidence to support that.
But what other things were there besides Spike. Firefly was cancelled and Buffy was over so Joss coming back was always a given regardless.
Spike was/is a popular character, I'm sure pitching him to the Network as being brought over for the show would be a good thing and huge factor.
Vincent Karthiser has said in interviews that Spike gave the show the shot in the arm that he couldn't. Pretty generous of him to say that and he didn't need to as he has nothing to gain.
 

Mrs Gordo

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But AtS purists love to describe Spike and James as some pariah, when it should be obvious that the Buffyverse needed to pull its resources to survive a year of the weakest seasons of both shows.
First, I think think this is a generalization that mixes up two popular ats-fan opinions. One that s5 was a departure from the ats format that ats purist love and two that Spike was to blame. Not all of us hold both opinions. I think Spike coming over was fine and even, at times, funny. I do think ats s5 was a different formula and as a so called 'purist' that annoys me. That doesn't mean I don't understand why they changed up the Format or why they felt that Spike could help. I am just clarifying to that a claim is being made that had 'Spike' not come over for s5 of AtS that network would not have picked it up. We just don't have proof of that. I can understand that being people's opinions but it shouldn't be relayed as a fact.

Spike was/is a popular character, I'm sure pitching him to the Network as being brought over for the show would be a good thing and huge factor.
See this is an opinion. It is a valid opinion. I think I even agree with this opinion - to an extent. It is not, however, a fact.
 

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First, I think think this is a generalization that mixes up two popular ats-fan opinions. One that s5 was a departure from the ats format that ats purist love and two that Spike was to blame. Not all of us hold both opinions. I think Spike coming over was fine and even, at times, funny. I do think ats s5 was a different formula and as a so called 'purist' that annoys me. That doesn't mean I don't understand why they changed up the Format or why they felt that Spike could help. I am just clarifying to that a claim is being made that had 'Spike' not come over for s5 of AtS that network would not have picked it up. We just don't have proof of that. I can understand that being people's opinions but it shouldn't be relayed as a fact.



See this is an opinion. It is a valid opinion. I think I even agree with this opinion - to an extent. It is not, however, a fact.
Regards the departure of the Ats format. It was less a departure and more a return to S1 and the Monster/Victim of the week format. I think it was mixed imo
The Werewolf episode was bad. Spike was actually written badly in that and Nina was spoilt by a poor casting choice, which felt like it was just because she was dating the writer in real life.

Pyscho Slayer Dana is arguably both the best victim and monster the show ever did. She is both herself. The end scene with Spike and Angel is really powerful "Once upon a time"

Its also feels like a subtle criticism of Joss writing that he's never really addressed. Dana was completely ignored in the Comics. She is pretty much Buffys victim.

They kick back into the serial format in the second half with Fred's death and that run from A Hole in the World through to Not Fade Away so perfect imo.

Your are right it is just my opinion. It's not fact but I will say that it's also my opinion that S5 is the best season of the series and Spike is large part of why that is.
Would you agree/disagree ?
 
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