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Joss Agrees

Priceless

Scooby
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He says that now but he was the one who had Spike have sex with Harmony in Angel Season 5 ! BTW that's not supposition David Fury says it on the Destiny DVD commentary
My view of that is Spike died believing that Buffy didn't love him, could never love him. His feelings for her aren't changed by sleeping with Harmony but I don't think he should spend the rest of his un-life as a celibate because he can't be with Buffy. Buffy goes on to have a relationship with The Immortal and it's several years before she and Spike begin to build a relationship (if you think the comics are canon, which I do)
 
B
Btvs fan
Urmm the Immortal relationship is retconned in the Comics to be a Buffy double though 😕

AstridDante

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Exactly and even Harmony (in her possessed state) knew who Spike loved and would rather be with even if she put it in a rather unpleasant manner ‘you don’t want me, you want your slayer****’.

By the way loving Stacey Abraham’s take on the whole Bangel and Spuffy debate and Joss has gone on record before as preferring Spuffy. I think he said something like ‘Buffy and Angel are for the ages but Buffy and Spike are for me.’
 

Btvs fan

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Exactly and even Harmony (in her possessed state) knew who Spike loved and would rather be with even if she put it in a rather unpleasant manner ‘you don’t want me, you want your slayer****’.
Yes but Harmony is a soulless creature, there is nothing for Spike to immediately leave and get back with Buffy (besides JM contract obligations) I'm sure he can wait a few hours or so for sex until he meets up with Buffy again.
 

AstridDante

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I agree with @Priceless, I think he was plagued with doubt that Buffy could really love him after everything. When he first returned to AtS his first instinct was to go to Buffy, he said to Angel ‘you don’t know what we had’. I think over time he just decided than rather then go and find out if she meant it and risk getting destroyed he rather leave her with the image of him being the hero. It doesn’t stop him loving her and wanting her and Harmony knew this. I didn’t love the scene especially given Harmony as a soulless creature but I understood its context they were former lovers he just got his body back, he shouldn’t have to remain celibate. Doesn’t effect his feelings for Buffy. I just feel a little bad for Harmony, soulless or not
 

Priceless

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@Btvs fan Urmm the Immortal relationship is retconned in the Comics to be a Buffy double though 😕

You're right, but Spike thinks it's real. I can't remember when or if he ever finds out it was a double?
 

DeadlyDuo

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He says that now but he was the one who had Spike have sex with Harmony in Angel Season 5 ! BTW that's not supposition David Fury says it on the Destiny DVD commentary
It's possible that, given the stuff currently going on with Ray Fisher and how "racism" is a hot topic right now (and as a straight white male Joss is at a disadvantage in the court of public opinion), Joss could be trying to cultivate some goodwill amongst the Buffy fandom. His answer is non-committal in the Bangel vs Spuffy debate so he's catering to both parties rather than picking one side over the other.
 

Btvs fan

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It's possible that, given the stuff currently going on with Ray Fisher and how "racism" is a hot topic right now (and as a straight white male Joss is at a disadvantage in the court of public opinion), Joss could be trying to cultivate some goodwill amongst the Buffy fandom. His answer is non-committal in the Bangel vs Spuffy debate so he's catering to both parties rather than picking one side over the other.
Hes been doing that for decades long before this. He's got 2 large fan bases and he doesn't want to upset either so plays safe
 

white avenger

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My view of that is Spike died believing that Buffy didn't love him, could never love him. His feelings for her aren't changed by sleeping with Harmony
This is explained quite easily by the fact that Spike knows the difference between romance and recreation. Harmony was recreation, pure and simple.

Buffy. Buffy goes on to have a relationship with The Immortal and it's several years before she and Spike begin to build a relationship (if you think the comics are canon, which I do)
I also accept the comics as canon, but I have to point out that it was established in the very first issue of Season 8 that the Slayer who was cavorting around Rome with the Immortal was a ringer. A real disappointment for me, because I really wanted to find out just what he really was. On the other hand, Buffy did actually have her own version of recreational sex with Satsu, a junior Slayer who she was obviously quite fond of, but not in love with.

As for Spike and that other vampire, I wrote a short piece about that a long time ago, called "Angel's Girl," where she writes Angel a letter sometime just after the end of Season 7, explaining that she will always be his girl, but she had finally come to realize and accept the fact that she is now, and always will be, Spike's lady. (inspired by Spike telling Glory that he was protecting Dawn because he "made a promise to a lady")
 

Serenityrose

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What Stacey said seems pretty consistent with what Joss has said about Spuffy


I’m a Buffy/Spike ’shipper,” Whedon said in the interview. “I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me.”
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Joss Whedon: You know what, I liked Spike. With Angel it’s too “Romeo and Juliet”. Which means, as soon as it happens you’re bored. Riley, you know he was a well-adjusted person who loved her in a much, much healthier way than the other two guys. Nobody wants to see that. With Buffy and Spike, they had a real Beatrice and Benedick kind of relationship, in “Much Ado About Nothing”. I think with the wedding, she would have tried to do something fast, but he would have made it elaborate and done everything wrong.
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Joss Whedon: In terms of a long term relationship. Spike's kind of your guy. You know he actually went and got a soul for her and was evolved in a different way.
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Joss Whedon: So to introduce this guy who is clearly "oh, I'm such a badass" and then have him very tenderly in love with another vampire... from the very beginning the idea was, well, he's not just a cardboard. He's gonna have levels to play. How many I didn't at the time realize, but in a way, he really didn't change that much. He's a character that I always liked a little bit more it than Angel, because...

Interviewer: He's got more of an edge.

Joss Whedon: He was more evolved, though. He had more of an edge, but at the same time, you know, he chose to have a soul. He learned from his mistakes and he -- Angel was kinda the classic Lestat puffy shirt, you know? And Spike was sort of the new mod rebellion against that, so I like that character. I always, always thought he was a good guy, even when he was a bad guy. (The Write Environment, 2008)
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Seems very consistent. I think he prefers Spuffy/Spike but ultimately ships weren't his main concern and he had no problem throwing crap at any pairing and devastating the fans. Honestly I think he liked Spangel the most out of everything. Lol
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
The movies must be VERY different if Joss compares Angel to Lestat when there are far more parallels between Spike and the rebel Lestat (books). I'd compare whining, guilt-ridden Louis to Angel. But then he can't remember BTVS that well either.

HowiMetdaSlayer

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">November 10, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
I prefer Alyson's idea...


 

AlphaFoxtrot

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I kinda wish Danny Strong would have said "I proposed a script where Superstar Jonathan was dating Buffy, Willow and Cordelia at the same time, but it was rejected. I was then told not to quit my day job." Then the only person who likes it is Nicholas Brendon.
 

AstridDante

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SMG going down with that ship. Kinda get it though Angel and Buffy were just star crossed lovers who couldn’t be together for reasons outside themselves. Their relationship was all epic for the first three seasons and that love never really went away despite both moving on. Saying that I am Spuffy to end and it is nice to see all the Spuffy love lately ☺
 

Hollypop

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This is explained quite easily by the fact that Spike knows the difference between romance and recreation. Harmony was recreation, pure and simple.



I also accept the comics as canon, but I have to point out that it was established in the very first issue of Season 8 that the Slayer who was cavorting around Rome with the Immortal was a ringer. A real disappointment for me, because I really wanted to find out just what he really was. On the other hand, Buffy did actually have her own version of recreational sex with Satsu, a junior Slayer who she was obviously quite fond of, but not in love with.

As for Spike and that other vampire, I wrote a short piece about that a long time ago, called "Angel's Girl," where she writes Angel a letter sometime just after the end of Season 7, explaining that she will always be his girl, but she had finally come to realize and accept the fact that she is now, and always will be, Spike's lady. (inspired by Spike telling Glory that he was protecting Dawn because he "made a promise to a lady")
[/QUOTE
This is a very eloquent take on bangel vs spuffy for me.
 

CHK DeWilSon

A BAngel fan. Always.
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Meanwhile SMG STILL ships Bangel.
Thought I add that extra word!!
Because SMG has been pretty consistent over the years about her support unlike certain others who will constantly change their opinions to cater to who they are talking to or when they were giving their opinion at that time.

As for Bangel being a Romeo and Juliet relationship, well I feel he gives a disservice to Buffy and Angel as while they would fight to the death to keep one another alive, they would not die for one another is the other was dead.
Angel felt some guilt when James didn't want to live because Angel had killed Elizabeth and how he even grieving Buffy and missing her, didn't feel the same as James.
Cordy has to give him some perspective in understanding that he shouldn't have to feel that way because it wouldn't be honouring Buffy.

So while Buffy and Angel's relationship may have certain elements from the Romeo and Juliet love story, they certain weren't a lovesick couple who didn't feel they could exist without the other.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Angel felt some guilt when James didn't want to live because Angel had killed Elizabeth and how he even grieving Buffy and missing her, didn't feel the same as James.
To be fair to James, several factors are different for him in regards to Elizabeth and her death than there is for Angel in regards to Buffy and her death:

1. James and Elizabeth had been together for centuries and were still very much in love with each other, whereas Angel had only known Buffy 5 years at that point, 2 of which had been spent apart aside from fleeting visits.

2. Angel learnt of Buffy's death and had time to process it before the James drama went down whereas James was reacting to and dealing with the immediate aftermath of Elizabeth's death.

3. James never expected Elizabeth not to come home which blindsides him, whereas both Angel and Buffy know there is a risk of her dying every time she goes out slaying.

Whilst that doesn't diminish Angel's obvious love for Buffy, he's essentially had 2 years to deal with her not being around. James receives the news of Elizabeth's death and within minutes is seeking revenge.
 
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