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Joyce/Buffy Parallel Homosexual situations ?

Discussion in 'Season 2' started by Antho, Jul 17, 2017.

  1. Antho

    Antho Scooby

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    I have just seen "Becoming part 2" and "Dead Man's Party" and something I had never noticed suddenly appeared to me as being very obvious.
    First I put the dialogues that make me think as I think :

    Joyce : You don't dump this on me and pretend it's nothing.
    Buffy : I don't have time for this
    Joyce : No, I'm tired of "I don't have time or you can't understand" I'm your mother, you make time to explain yourself.
    Buffy : I told you.. I'm a vampire slayer (imagine she said she was homosexual).
    Joyce : Well I just don't accept that !
    Buffy : Open your eyes mom. What do you think has been going on the past two years ? The weird occurences, the fights..... and you don't figuring out ?
    Joyce : Well it stops now !
    Buffy : No it doesn't stop, it never stops. Do you think I chose to be like this ? Do you have any ideas how lonely it is ? How dangerous ? I would love being upstairs watching TV, gossiping about boys or God even studying.
    Joyce : No this is insane. Buffy you need help.
    Buffy : I'm not crazy.
    Joyce : You walk out of this house, don't even think about coming back !

    It seems like a dispute between a teenager who admits that he / she is homosexual, that he / she did not choose to be like that and the parents react badly, do not understand, think the child has a problem. And well on the end also when she puts Buffy out of the house ^^. And later on season 3 when Buffy says "You just discovered who I was and you could not bear it" and Joyce's response : "I remember the shock that it made to me. By announcing the news to me, you probably hoped that I would take it well, and well I did not take it well, it gave you absolutely no right to punish me" (not exactly the same word).
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  2. Living Dead Boy

    Living Dead Boy Joss Is A Very Flawed Boss

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    Black Thorn
    Totally agree. I believe that it was probably intentional of Joss to play around with that metaphor, I mean it's so applicable isn't it? To hammer the point home, Joyce even says in "Faith, Hope, and Trick" "I've tried to march in the Slayer Pride Parade, but I don't want you to die." I love that line, and it reminds me of various conversations I've had with my mother. I kinda didn't come out to her, she just found out. (Friendly reminder, if you're trying to keep a secret, make sure you close all tabs on your computer). She didn't take it well at first (mostly because I didn't tell her sooner), but finally she explained to me that she didn't react that way because of my sexuality, but because of how the world will treat me because of it. Hence, when Joyce said "I don't want you to die", it kinda hit home for me, largely because in the context of the series, Joyce is worried about Buffy, not because she's the Slayer, but because her job is dangerous. It's a neat parallel, if you ask me. :)
     
  3. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy BFF of Sour Patch Kid

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    Sineya
    Very clever insight. Just another brilliant way to compare slaying to real life.
     
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  4. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    I don't know how to explain this, because I don't know words, but there is something very gay about the Scoobies. Actually, I do know words. The word is camp. The Scoobies are very camp. That is why Riley seems so out of place.
     
  5. Blaze

    Blaze Let it Burn

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    Black Thorn
    I never saw it like that before, but the parrallel definitely works. Just like they did the same with the magic and Tara and her family.

    So in conclusion, the supernatural is just very, very gay :D
     
  6. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    Don't forget this:

    [​IMG]

    There are way too many who can relate to that reaction, including me.



    When I was a runaway, I mixed with other kids and there were many gay and lesbian kids...many of whom were thrown out (which is illegal, but not a law that gets enforced, at least not in Texas), and others fled the constant abuse and even torture they faced (including violent exorcisms, legal torture at places that promised to turn gay kids straight, etc). And note, I'm NOT including boys who turned tricks with men for money as gay as that was merely about survival (just like when lesbians did the same) rather than sexual orientation (women picking up teen prostitutes on the streets are so incredibly rare as to border on nonexistent so the legion of men offering us money was about the only option for those who sold their bodies, at least in my experience), I'm only meaning to include those who were out as gay and that being why they were on the streets...and I'm also not counting those who are gay but was not a significant factor in why they were on the streets (such as myself). Many do find themselves on the street because of terrible parents (or other guardians) who react very poorly to their child being gay.
     
    WillowFromBuffy: Reading this is really humbling. Hope things are better for you now <3
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
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  7. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    Read an article ages ago in one of the journals in the Whedon Studies Association site about the campness of Spike. Can't link it because that would be technical and I can't do those things, but from what I remember it said that he could be seen as camp because he was the outcast of the show, has that sense of vulnerability, he's sensitive, easily hurt and sentimental and has a self-mocking and sarcastic wit. And yes, Riley is the antithesis of camp :D
     
  8. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Do you have the link? Just click the little paperclip picture in the reply toolbar, copy and past the url then click insert.

    I wouldn't say Spike is camp (not unless you're trying to say that men can't be sensitive and that sowing any sensitivity means they're not "real" men. PS "You" as in general terms not you as in you) :D

    If any of the scoobies were camp, I'd say it would be Xander because of his demeanour. He's also the outcast of the scoobies in a sense (No power), he's vulnerable, sensitive, easily hurt, sentimental (yellow crayon speech) and is self-mocking and sarcastic.
     
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  9. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    Spike is extremely camp. He is melodramatic and his mannerism and dress are quite flamboyant. Camp also implies difference. Spike and Dru are a tight pair with their own way of being and speaking with each other.

    I too want to read the article @Priceless Are there not geeks at your location?
     
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  10. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    Both Spike and Xander are camp. Yet another thing they have in common. That's why Spander is the best. :D

    I don't know if I really wanna compare Joyce's reaction to Buffy being a Slayer to a gay daughter coming out to her mother. I get that the outside world is dangerous for both, but in Buffy's case, she's the one seeking danger to save the world. As a mother, I don't know if I'd ever accept my kid being some warrior, living in the fear that she will be killed any day/night. Living in the fear that she might get seriously hurt. Living in the fear that she'll never find love and settle down. Joyce's reaction was a watered down reaction IMO, I would have done more to keep Buffy from leaving the house.
     
  11. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    WillowFromBuffy likes this.
  12. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    @Priceless I read that article/ skimmed some of it and I actually disagree with it on several points.

    The idea of Spike as a performer is marginally interesting with the connection between Giles dream and Spike's song in front of an audience. However, it could also be argued that it could be reading too much into it. Giles could view Spike as an oddity hence why in his dream, he's an "attraction". In Xander's dream, Giles was saying Spike is "like a son" to him which could not only speak of Xander feeling alienated from Giles (eg he feels that Giles prefers Spike over him) but also shows that the scoobies have different viewpoints on the same thing. The cheese man appears in all 3 dreams yet is supposed to be just one of those weird things that happens in dreams (despite the fact it's the exact same man. It's not A cheese man but THE cheese man). Also Spike lives in a graveyard. If funerals are happening at night, then he's bound to run across one sooner or later. It just so happened to be during OMWF. Everything in that episode was exaggerated, a couple of vampires were clicking their fingers and dancing in Buffy's opening number so Spike's "performance" isn't necessarily because he's play acting at being the "big bad vampire".

    I strongly disagree with the "plays with dolls" line. First off, robots are not dolls, otherwise maybe they should include Warren in their "camp" analysis. Secondly, so what? People would complain if the show consisted of stereotypical characters that did not break convention eg Buffy being the stereotypical blonde cheerleader rather than the kickass Slayer, yet if a male character doesn't act in a stereotypical way, he's immediately considered "camp?" I also disagree with the commentary on Spike's appearance and dwellings. Why shouldn't Spike take pride in his appearance and home? He's the one that has to live there. Are the authors suggesting that he needs to be dragging his knuckles along the ground and grunting like some Neanderthal in order to not be camp? That he has to be devoid of any emotion otherwise he's "feminine"? For me, the fact that he sarcastically says things like "I'm thinking dinner and a movie, I've been hurt you know" in response to "What are you going to do with him?", suggests that Spike is completely comfortable in his sexuality. He's not trying to exaggerate his "manliness" by threatening violence. He's also basically telling Willie to mind his own business. His speech in "In the Dark" was him taking the piss out of Angel, both appearance wise and Angel's dark crusader role. The whole "To the Angel mobile, away!" was a nod to Batman which Angel's MO kind of was eg fighting crime at night and helping people. Spike's seen Les Mis, he could've been dragged there by Dru, he could've gone of his own accord, does it matter? Wesley showed interest in seeing Les Mis, does that make Wesley camp? Spike seemingly didn't enjoy it since he said that it would have Angel drinking human blood again by the end of the first act.

    I find that article to be quite sexist towards men. If you were to ask me what camp was, I would say David Walliams. Camp is behavioural. Spike is nothing like that. The idea that, just because Spike is sensitive, takes pride in his appearance and home and enjoys the theatre, must mean he's camp is not a neutral argument. Angelus enjoyed ballet yet there is no mention of him being camp. Spike's comments to Glory were supposed to wind her up. Since she's so vain, her appearance would be an easy target. Spike was deliberately trying to PROVOKE her. He wasn't just commenting on her appearance to be bitchy, he was trying to escape, hence why when she kicked him and broke the chain holding him, Spike said to himself "Good plan Spike" in a way that really said "that hurt like hell". I actually dislike that article, it seems to be trying to enforce gender stereotypes by insinuating that unless a man acts a certain way which the author considers a man should act like, then the man in question is "camp" and "feminine".
     
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  13. Meliza

    Meliza Potential

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    I thought about starting a thread to discuss James Marster's acting and if anyone else was picking up on James Dean influences?

    Marsters brings incredible vulnerability that was very reminiscent.

    Now James Dean is the most popular actor in the world and influenced the entire field its self, building upon the contributions of Marlon Brando & Montgomery Clift.

    Before them, it was more then not cool for men to show vulnerability on screen, it was not done at all.

    Perhaps instead of starting a thread that inevitability discusses those three icons, this is a better place for bringing up the similarities in regards to Spike's "campiness"

    I looked at Spike countless times and wondered what it was exactly Marsters was doing in that scene... it has been said before what he brought to the character always made the audience feel there was more to him then just a villain. Which in retrospect what was really behind Whedon'd impetus to develop the character more, it was Marsters acting and what he brought to the table.

    DeadlyDuo , I don't see anything unintentionally homophobic about the others seeing his emotionality/vulnerability as something "camp" or "feminine"

    But I completely understand where your coming from but I also find it ironic don't you? remember gay men aren't the only ones targeted by homophobic bullying, straight men and boys are constantly as well, you don't have to be gay to be gay bashed. So where is the stigma? is it in having sex with men or in being deemed somewhat feminine and therefor inferior as a male? it intersects through misogyny. This tells me there is indeed something feminine in a actors performance if it can be deemed "Camp" and then "Hey, wait a minute that is homophobic" in the first place.

    I think Spike, the character either loves women (more then heterosexuality, a lot of straight don't like women) or relates to women a lot too (because of his emotional nature?), he dedicates his life and undead life to earning the love of women. He is a full fledged romantic and wants too and does dedicate his heart and soul to the women he is with. Beginning with how close he is with his mother, most vampires and men turned vampires first instinct is to slaughter the people the formerly loved, Spike's is to "save" his mother by turning her immortal like himself.

    It has been said before the person you were while alive informs who you become as a vampire. What does this tell us about Spike? his capacity to love ? for vampires ?

    Liam "hated his father" air qoutes, We see them have heated contentious relationship with his father and the first thing on his mind once turned is killing him but remember the phrase "The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference" there has got to be scores of people turned into vampires who just take off and don't look back, if they run into somebody they knew they will use that trust but they don't make a fuss, the first things on their minds is to take off to the races so to speak but with with Liam, he hated him, so he killed him. With Spike, he loved her, so he turned her. Now, does this mean if you kill instead of turn your family, it means you didn't love them ? Not so, they were on your mind either way. Willow "Your still all he thinks about"

    Spike is the peculiarity here... he could have just drank her.

    To me, this is reinforcing the notion their is some thing "different" about Spike

    When I first read this explanation, It sounded like fan service to me, I wouldn't be farther from a Spike fan.

    So this is not driven by Spike love, but textually I concede this goes along way to keeping the show's mythology coherent and actually creating something philosophically meaningful.

    I also agree that Spike having the chip and having to act like he was "good" for survival (That great Darwinian motivator known as evolution) reinforced his humanity, by acting as a thing you become it. Artistole "Virtue is a habit"

    You remember what Angelus said to Darla after he killed him "Love ... did this?"
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2017 ---
    The chip aided in Spike's moral development but Buffy was the evolutionary catalyst that accelerated or prompted the evolution .

    Which was what made her so dangerous to The First. She doesn't just fight evil, she redeems it.

    But why was Spike redeemed by love ? was Drusilla right in thinking Spike was special? did he possess the soul of a poet ?
     
    Priceless: Great phrase 'she doesnt just fight evil, she redeems it', can I steal that?
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
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  14. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    @DeadlyDuo The article is academic and bases it's ideas on a very narrow meaning of 'camp', which I may not agree with, but I still found it an interesting read. I didn't agree with it all, but the overall theme, that Spike can be read as camp, is probably true.
     
  15. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    I think the crux of the matter is that "Camp" has different interpretations and connotations for different people. Spike does not fit into "camp" territory for me. Andrew on the other hand does. I wouldn't even say Xander is "camp" per se, though he is probably the campest of the scoobies but still not enough to be called "camp".
     
  16. Meliza

    Meliza Potential

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    I guess the terms has not so much multiple meanings but fuzzy ones, Susan Sontag defines it as a sensibility "a way of seeing the world as a aesthetic phenomenon not in terms of beauty but in terms of the degree of artifice and stylization." I can see how Buffy, breaking genres, mixing humor with it's early horror movie elements can look/feel similar.

    Why so many people were turned off from watching Buffy (besides the name, the name its self is.... something. I think "Bunny The Vampire Slayer" would have received a more welcoming reception! Oh Yeah, I get it what they're doing! ha ha

    And all shows, Charmed, Angel, Doctor Who, Once A Upon A Time, that mix the supernatural and fantastical run the risk of looking ridiculous / being funny because of budget concerns, transferring the super cool thing you imagined in your head looks shoddy, weird, humorous.

    I say Angel and True Blood come closer to "camp" then Buffy did.

    Angel had the benefit of being created by the same person who made Buffy, so it has same high caliber internal logic, universe and dialogue, if not writing. But more so in the first season the show stumbled in blending genre as well as Buffy had and that no doubt had something to do with changing the premise.

    Charmed used constant special effects, usually low budget, it's writing serving on silly. It is too grown up for kids and to childish for adults.

    I like Charmed, don't get me wrong, I noticed people sometimes think this weird medium is what writing for teenagers is? or they just don't get it right.

    Which reminds me, were Xena and Hercules getting it right or wrong? is having to ask the question what camp means?

    True blood used the supernatural to serve the theme and message of the show, which were not fantastical, only adult and the exploits the adults got up to were outlandish.

    None fit camp perfectly (Except Xena?) but Buffy for one major reason, being the antithesis of style over substance.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  17. WillowFromBuffy

    WillowFromBuffy "My bowling shoe fetish is not the issue here."

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    @Meliza Sontang differentiates between true camp and self-aware camp. Buffy is clearly the latter. I think the brilliance of Buffy is the ability to sway between campy stylised humour and brutal naked emotion. Both the comedy and the heart-ache take you by surprise, because you never get what you expect.

    P.S. I did not read the article, yet. I'll get on it when I have the time :p
     
  18. Triss

    Triss Andrew's momma

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    I've been ignoring this thread because I assumed it was Joyce/Buffy incest... Wtf.
     
  19. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    I just noticed that the picture isn't showing up, so for those who can't see it it's one of Joyce asking, "Honey, are you sure you're a vampire slayer? I mean, have you tried NOT being a slayer?"
     
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