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Just finished Angel for the 3rd time

Cyberdemon

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the series finale never gets eaiser. Am the only one who thinks that ATS has the worst series finale in tv history? a lot of people say sopranos/dexter had a bad one but id say that angel is the worst since it almost feels like it never got one. I'm probably outta the loop, is there something im missing here? did they have more planned and it never happened?
 

Btvs fan

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the series finale never gets eaiser. Am the only one who thinks that ATS has the worst series finale in tv history? a lot of people say sopranos/dexter had a bad one but id say that angel is the worst since it almost feels like it never got one. I'm probably outta the loop, is there something im missing here? did they have more planned and it never happened?

They got the cancellation news during the filming of E17 but I'm not sure how badly effected that caused the finale though. I can't seem to copy and paste but if you go on the writing column in the link, it has Joss Whedon and David Fury talk about the finale

Side note The Sopranos finale is true garbage and on rewatch Iv noticed how samey the shows seasons are and its definitely not as good. Whereas Breaking Bad IS still as good
 

thrasherpix

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There are different versions about what happened, sometimes from the same person. So everything said by them is worth taking with a grain of salt.

Frankly, and I base this on Joss's behavior then and later (and also previously), I think the most likely is that Joss demanded an early approval for the next season which was almost assured anyway. But if they did so then everyone else would demand to be an exception to the rules because everyone thinks themselves exceptional. Joss wouldn't budge and said "now or never, my way or the highway." So, with regret even then, they said never.

Joss came up with a symbolic meaning, but I believe he did it to be petty over not getting his way. Perhaps the suit he went to had the ego the size of a small moon just as Joss had, but Joss was definitely a factor here. So he took his toys and went home, made a troll ending, and then invented some BS about how it was higher art.

Just my opinion, and one I'm not willing to sift through all the background again as there's so much that's contradictory that one could easily come up with another interpretation. That was just what I decided after having gone through it myself.

I do believe most everyone who looked into it realizes there would've been a season 6 had Joss not clashed with a suit, whether or not he meant his ending in the best possible way, or as petty revenge (as he's said to have exercised against others before, including on the cast, and against the actress who played Cordelia, including in season 5 where he presumably broke his word to her to not kill off her character, at least not in that episode).
 

Cyberdemon

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They got the cancellation news during the filming of E17
Ouch, probably explains why angel himself kinda flip flopped int he last 2 eps and started pretending to be bad. thought that came outta nowhere tbh
So he took his toys and went home, made a troll ending, and then invented some BS about how it was higher art.
Nice thing to; do to the fans..
That's funny, I consider the Angel finale to be one of the best finales of all time, if not the best. What is your issue with it?
The fact that the finale was like part 1 and there was no part 2
 

Puppet

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The fact that the finale was like part 1 and there was no part 2
But that was the whole point; the battle never ends. Angel will never get to stop fighting for his redemption, the way Buffy got a break when Willow made all of those new Slayers. Cutting off right as a giant battle is about to begin was the perfect way to end it because while the show was over, his journey for forgiveness wasn't. It's a huge part of why I love it. It doesn't perfectly tie everything up in a pretty bow, it's messy just as the show always was.

Anyway, thought I'd give my two cents :)
 

BaskingINBangel

I'm busy basking.......
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I personally love it, and agree with @Puppet that it's one of the best finales of all time. It's pretty brilliant if you think about it because it brings the entire show full circle.

Redemption, and fighting the good fight is a never ending battle, but it's worth it.
 

Btvs fan

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But that was the whole point; the battle never ends. Angel will never get to stop fighting for his redemption, the way Buffy got a break when Willow made all of those new Slayers. Cutting off right as a giant battle is about to begin was the perfect way to end it because while the show was over, his journey for forgiveness wasn't. It's a huge part of why I love it. It doesn't perfectly tie everything up in a pretty bow, it's messy just as the show always was.

Anyway, thought I'd give my two cents :)

Redemption ?
He lies and manipulates people including his own crew. Murders 1 person and orders the murder of another. Released a soulless Vampire to go murder again (with a reference) then goes on a suicide run.

None of that's redemptive behaviour.

Then we get to Joss S8 comics after this where murdering young girls and having Space sex to make a fascist universe is the order of the day.
 
Puppet
Puppet
Buddy, I never said he got or deserved redemption, just that his journey was fighting for it. Calm down.

Btvs fan

Scooby
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There are different versions about what happened, sometimes from the same person. So everything said by them is worth taking with a grain of salt.

Frankly, and I base this on Joss's behavior then and later (and also previously), I think the most likely is that Joss demanded an early approval for the next season which was almost assured anyway. But if they did so then everyone else would demand to be an exception to the rules because everyone thinks themselves exceptional. Joss wouldn't budge and said "now or never, my way or the highway." So, with regret even then, they said never.

Joss came up with a symbolic meaning, but I believe he did it to be petty over not getting his way. Perhaps the suit he went to had the ego the size of a small moon just as Joss had, but Joss was definitely a factor here. So he took his toys and went home, made a troll ending, and then invented some BS about how it was higher art.

Just my opinion, and one I'm not willing to sift through all the background again as there's so much that's contradictory that one could easily come up with another interpretation. That was just what I decided after having gone through it myself.

I do believe most everyone who looked into it realizes there would've been a season 6 had Joss not clashed with a suit, whether or not he meant his ending in the best possible way, or as petty revenge (as he's said to have exercised against others before, including on the cast, and against the actress who played Cordelia, including in season 5 where he presumably broke his word to her to not kill off her character, at least not in that episode).

It was Fury who said that though he put a positive light on it saying Whedon only did it because of the late renewal with S5 and wanted to think about Cast and crew jobs. Which since he lost them is definitely ironic.

But Whedon does have an ego about these things. I definitely think TGIQ was a Whedon attack on SMG for not doing the 100th episode. Even on the DVD overview you get the cold "she's moved on so should we" line. Admittedly he retcons it in the comics but that makes even less sense and is incredibly contradictory.
 

Faded90

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Redemption ?
He lies and manipulates people including his own crew. Murders 1 person and orders the murder of another. Released a soulless Vampire to go murder again (with a reference) then goes on a suicide run.

None of that's redemptive behaviour.

Then we get to Joss S8 comics after this where murdering young girls and having Space sex to make a fascist universe is the order of the day.
I think NFA works as a finale as long as you don’t look too closely at it. ‘The fight never ends’ yeah great I get that, ending on an impossible fight - in a vacuum I think this is perfect but it’s also about how they got there. For me NFA takes Angel back to his nihilistic Reprise self, his self that thought ‘well we won’t ever win so I’ll just go make a big move because we’re f***ed anyway’, his epiphany is about NOT doing what they do in NFA. In NFA he starts this unwinnable battle that he even acknowledges they’re all going to die in and unleashed a barrage of demons onto LA and now it’s going to be someone else’s mess to clean up. Likely Buffy and the slayers. It’s a move that isn’t going to achieve anything but soothes Angel’s ego for a little while as he gets to ‘stick it to the man’ while the demons unleashed are highly likely to kill masses of people and cause carnage. It felt like Angel was supposed to have grown out of this power move stuff. Chosen suffers slightly from the ‘don’t look too closely’ stuff as well as obviously it’s likely all slayers aren’t going to be righteous heroes but that gets a bit of a pass as the world would have ended if they hadn’t done it whereas Angel’s move doesn’t achieve anything. The final scene itself works in NFA but the rest just doesn’t land right

I don’t ever see the comics as my
Headcanon post the tv shows but it is funny that they make Angel’s power move mean even less when the basically say ‘oh yeah so it just didn’t happen’ through a time reversal (which was ridiculous in itself). Although I do think the comics are largely ridiculous anyway 😂
 
GreyWalker1958
GreyWalker1958
Though After The Fall does work as a fitting conclusion

thrasherpix

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Can any of the members here who like to reference philosophers in relation to the show remember what Dostoevsky said in regards to free will? Something along the lines of no matter how good a person has it, he or she will sabotage themselves as well as the system just to prove they're a person rather than a piano key, and would spit in the face in everyone else with chaos and destruction. That's as best as I can recall it.

I got to thinking of it because of how Angel season 5 ends, especially taking into the context with what goes before leading up to it. Other than some surgical strikes, it's just plain destruction, not to win a war, but to spit in their faces, to burn down the house they're in as Wes put it. More specifically, Angel's own words: "We can't bring down the senior partners, but for one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us."

He reminds me in the end of season 5 more of the Joker as played by Christopher Nolan than a champion, and just because he focused on striking other bad guys doesn't automatically make him or his fight good.
 
Last edited:

thrasherpix

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Finished the rewatch. The guy who saw it for the first time is still reeling from the, er, end. We talked, but I think I need to give him some time to calm down (and maybe I'll share more of his thoughts then).

While I'm here, I think my Joker reference was inaccurate. I can kinda see it, but what is much closer is the ending to Fight Club, in which many credit card companies are destroyed at the end. You know hell is going to rain down on them as well, but strikes me as almost identical (and ultimately pointless, likely to make what they destroyed stronger once they return, and many innocents suffering in the meantime) to what Angel (in metaphor) did.

I still stand by what I said on Dostoevsky, at least until I can find the passage I'm thinking of (which I'm not going to do right away but plan to mention him to my friend, so probably will then).
 

thrasherpix

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Overall, the guy who saw the show for the first time says that he definitely prefers it to Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but still thought Buffy ended better.

He doesn't see the ending as positive like many do. If anything, it was proving Holland Manners right, especially if W&H can just reappear as they did at the end in season 4. It was pointless.

'Course Angel says it doesn't matter more than once through the series, and here he lives that, but it's hardly heroic in how he did it. He can't believe he'd still listen to a Higher Power after what happened, either.

If he wanted to go "grey morality" and be an anti-hero instead of a hero then there are many other options. We talked about them and it was interesting, but I don't know if it would've made for interesting TV. If it did, it would start to feel more like Babylon 5, which isn't necessarily bad (I love that show), but it wouldn't be what the fans are used to and unlikely to attract enough of those who would like that vibe.

That aside, this was otherwise arguably his favorite season, and even the last episode hit him in a way that will haunt him for some time.

He and I are going to do a rewatch of a couple of eps or so from both Buffy and Angel to compare/contrast, probably this weekend, but after that I think I'll be taking a break from all things Jossverse.

He, on the other hand, is actually going to checkout After the Fall. Since what he and I like and dislike are not the same, he might actually enjoy them.
 

Nix

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I love finales that leave you wanting more and leave you so sad that you know it's over. This imo was exactly that. I wanted to know what happened, I needed more. Best way to bow out of a show.... no killing of the main character (Angel), just a stop in the story as it were. I was left crying knowing it was the end. Same with Buffy, although that had more of an ending in one sense, it also opened up so many more questions and possibilities.... awesomeness. P.s. I don't do comics.
 

Dogs of Winter

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I loved the ending of Angel.

And I can understand why it is not universally loved. The eps leading upto NFA feel a bit rushed due to the circumstances around the cancellation, and in some ways Angel's behaviour goes back to his S2 need to make a big gesture rather than look out for the little people.

But in a series finale I think a show should have the right to end in a poetic manner rather than being purely logical, and in that sense it works perfectly for me in the way it sums up all the characters and where they have come to after 5 seasons, and as @Nix said it leaves you wanting more in a way that gives it an extra poignancy
 
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I just now this moment finished watching it for the first time. To me it didn't even feel like an ending at all, all I can say is I hated it lmao
 

Cyberdemon

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I just now this moment finished watching it for the first time. To me it didn't even feel like an ending at all, all I can say is I hated it lmao
yeah its like there was supposed to be a second part to the ep and it never happened. even though i know its going to happen it still hurts every time
 
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