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Kalderash Spell?

Altoz

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Okay, this may seem tangential. I was wondering about whether Willow's mastery over the Kalderash vampire ensoulment spell might have possibly increased over time. From memory, she's only used it twice- once in Sunnydale to prevent Angel being sent to Acathla; and again, in Los Angeles, after receiving a request from Wes to do so. Is the Kalderash spell Angelocentric? It seems to only be applicable to him. otherwise Our William would've sidled up to Willow and said "'Ere, Red. I'm sick and tired of being a psychotic murderous bastard. Can you work that Kalderash bollocks on me so I can get my soul back too?" I can imagine situations where ensoulment might have been quite useful to the Scoobies. However, is it feasible for Willow to be able to tweak the spell slightly and extend its range to those Angel has sired as well- which is counterproductive when it came to Spike, because he found an alternative avenue, but what about Penn or Drusilla?
 

HowiMetdaSlayer

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They should've had Willow find a way to tweak the spell to lose the whole 'moment of happiness' clause. 😏
 

thrasherpix

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Angel didn't fall for Darla. He was trying to stop his pain. As he said, the sex was perfect despair, not perfect happiness.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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If you have problem with your member, you go see the doctor. If you have problems with your soul curse, you go see your witch. Both can be very awkward.
 
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Is the Kalderash spell Angelocentric?
I see no reason it couldn't be used on another vampire.

Our William would've sidled up to Willow and said "'Ere, Red. I'm sick and tired of being a psychotic murderous bastard. Can you work that Kalderash bollocks on me so I can get my soul back too?"
This wouldn't have worked on any level and Willow isn't the only one who knows how to work a soul, either. Both The Mayor and Wesley just called up a dark mystic. Spike going to Africa and "earning" his soul had to be seen as the ultimate "see how much i love you" to Buffy, so Spike could have a free pass through S7. It also means no happiness clause so he gets all the pros of having a soul and none of the Cons.

With how strong Willow does end up getting, she surely could do a mass soul restore of every vampire on the planet, but that would make things difficult for a show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

The only reason Willow comes to resoul Angel in season 4 is because the writers want the happiness clause in place.
It only seems to be when Angel falls for a female human, though. It didn't activate after he slept with Darla after her resurrection.
I don't know how people can watch the show and still think the curse trigger is sex.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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The Mayor and Wesley just called up a dark mystic.
Wesley's mystic has to store Angel's soul in a jar. Jenny's spell is able to pull Angel's soul from the ether. If Jenny needed to temporarily extract Angel's soul, she wouldn't need to store it in the interim, as she could call it forth later.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that Jenny's spell was crafted specifically for Angel by the old gypsies. Therefore, I don't think Jenny, Willow or Giles and Wesley's hooded mystics would be able to help other vampires.
 
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Wesley's mystic has to store Angel's soul in a jar. Jenny's spell is able to pull Angel's soul from the ether. If Jenny needed to temporarily extract Angel's soul, she wouldn't need to store it in the interim, as she could call it forth later.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that Jenny's spell was crafted specifically for Angel by the old gypsies. Therefore, I don't think Jenny, Willow or Giles and Wesley's hooded mystics would be able to help other vampires.
You're splitting hairs. The only reason Angel's soul gets stored in a jar is so it can be stolen.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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You're splitting hairs. The only reason Angel's soul gets stored in a jar is so it can be stolen.
I'm not splitting hairs. I'm taking the story at face value. It may be a little convenient, but it adds up. You're inventing plot holes that don't exist.
 
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Altoz

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I'm extrapolating here, but could Willow have modified the parameters of the original spell to (say) also affect vampires that Angelus sired? And possibly, could there also be a limited elasticity within the spell insofar as it affects Angel himself? I imagien that repeated use of the spell could impose strains on its utility. Willow's already used it on Angel twice. Is there any canonic direction as to how the orginal gypsies designed the spell? I intend to have Willow use it on an unrelated vampire and on Angel again (although Drusilla is in the vicinity and is also ensouled by it). Could Jenny Calendar have studied the spell's applicability and scope before Angelus killed her, and left notes?
 

DeadlyDuo

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I think it was mentioned or at the very least strongly implied that the spell Willow did to restore Angel's soul was the exact same spell the gypsies performed to curse him in the first place so it's likely that specific spell was created to specifically target Angel rather than as a general soul restoration spell. The gypsies wanted to punish Angel so they would want to give him the worst punishment possible. Spike getting a soul is a bit of a cop out because not only does it undermine Angel's entire schtick and contradicts the whole "a soul is the ultimate punishment for a vampire" by trying to turn it into a romantic gesture, but it also throws up a way that Angel could actually keep his soul and get rid of the perfect happiness clause but that the writers won't use because they want to keep Angelus on hand for drama. It makes Angel look a little stupid, especially as it's shown that he's not adverse to trials since he performed some when he was trying to save human Darla.
 

Altoz

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The question is whether the Kalderash might also have an earlier, more generalised version of the spell, though. If they knew enough to be able to restore a specific vampire 's soul, is there a more generalised spell that would work on a group of vampires? If the Kalderash clan had passed through (say) Transylvania, I can see how such a spell might be a necessity for group survival. Can you imagine the existential consequences of suddenly feeling guilt for centuries of predation on humanity? I imagine it would be enough for the affected vampire to end their own existence out of guilt and self-hatred. Mind you, Angel was born in Ireland, so I imagine that there's Catholicism percolating around in his brain which would prevent that. in his case. How would it affect any non-Catholic origin vampire, though, especially those from backgrounds without strong prohibitions against suicide?
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Do you remember the Big Cat in "A Hole in the World?" Or the Angel of Osiris in Vilians? Or the First Slayer in "Primeval?" If you look at the text for the Kalderesh curse, it's an invocation of very dark gods, and then pleading for revenge. It probably only worked the first time because the blood of Jenny screamed forth from the ground, and the gods were happy to recurse Angelus. The second time, Willow was very powerful by then, and Loa respect power. But I don't think this is the type of spell that you could use a lot, not without rebound.
 

Altoz

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So it's actually darkmagick? Sorry, but how would that actually work out in practice? I realise that the Kalderash intended it as a curse against Angelus, but the intent seems morally ambiguous. The dark gods may well respond to being invoked and would only be too happy to curse a specific individual, but the net effect would be to install existential crisis in Angel, self-hatred and possibly suicidal ideation as a result of the self-realisatin of his transgressions. Therefore it could be said to protect specific communities against incursions from this vampire, however indirectly, as a consequence of its casting. And when Willow used it against Angelus in Los Angeles, she didn't seem to suffer any darkmagick feedback (I didn't notice her eyes going black as she enacted the spell, which usually happens whenever she uses darkmagick.) It seems a double-edged sword. Would the dark deities invoked necessarily be happy as a result of that? Granted, they get to torment someone, but there's the loss of one soul to the dark realms and they don't benefit at all given the compensatory good deeds an ensouled vampire might commit as a consequence of her or his ensoulment. Or is the Kalderash spell a form of greymagick?,
 

white avenger

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Is the Kalderash spell Angelocentric?
is it feasible for Willow to be able to tweak the spell slightly
We have no answer to this in canon, but I have always thought that the spell that restored Angel's soul was formulated specifically to him, including the "moment of complete happiness" loophole, and it not only wouldn't work on any other vampire, it wouldn't even work on Angelus without the happiness clause. The spell was created by a human witch, working within human capabilities, and was a one shot deal, probably only intended to be a short term thing (Willow only restored the existing spell, she never created one of her own.) I'm pretty sure that the original plan was that Angelus would be so overcome with grief and guilt by what he had done that it would drive him insane and, ultimately suicidal. That never actually happened, because Angel was either too durable to consider suicide or Liam's character might feel the guilt, but still try and figure some less fatal way of dealing with the situation.

Whatever the original plan was, it sort of backfired, so the Gypsies had to come up with a Plan B, stalking around after Angel, making sure that he never achieved his one perfect moment, therefore at least assuring that Angelus would never return and seek vengeance on them for what they had done.

Spike wanted a soul, permanently attached, with no limitations, penalties, or escape clauses, so he went to a demon, not any witch, sorcerer, or wizard, because no human would be powerful enough to create a spell like that.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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The language of the Spell can be found here. Most of its just mystical sounding words. The key parts I see are "Spirits of the interregnum (a purgatory)," "Gods, bind him, cast his heart from the evil realm (Hell/Tartarus)." "Let him know the pain of humanity, gods." I point to these parts, they show who the Invocation is intended for, that is, the Powers of the Abode of the Dead, it describes what she is ask for, which is for his soul to be released from the Abode of the Dead and returned to his body, and for the intended effect, returning the soul will cause great pain. So, it's invoking the Gods of the Underworld, to curse a vampire by summoning a shade of the dead, then grafting it to the vampire, with the intended effect of torturing the vampire. I say that's dark magic, but I am by no means an authority on either magic or gypsy religion. If it was white magic, I assume the purification/destruction of the undead would be the goal.

As for the intent. I think the ensoulment was intended to drive the demon mad with guilt, that what was once a Prince of the Underworld is reduced to a pathetic rat eater. Maybe he would kill himself, maybe other vampires would kill him as he begged for death, maybe the humans would get him. As long as he suffered. I don't think the happiness clause was of any weight to either party. I mean, I assume for a spell like this, the Witch had to act as shaman, had to negotiate the terms with the Gypsy ancestral spirits, and this was seen, if he did achieve happiness, if his pain was lost, more pain, he had to watch those he loved, die at his own hand. Remember, some part of Angel is always with Angelus per "Orpheus." Granted, I hate that scene, it destroys the rest of soul canon, but I suppose it is in alignment with this idea. But I think the idea, it's not going to happen, he's going to be eating rats.

As for Willow's use. Angelus, when he returned, killed both Enos and Jenny. The Gods in question should have been happy to avenge them. In season 4, if D'Hoffryn was any indication, all the Dark Forces of the Night were in awe of Willow Rosenberg, she had their respect. And again, my understanding is limited, but in Magic, power is power. The ability to talk to the spirits is what matters, not which spirits you talk to. However, I do think if she started using the spell every time Buffy and Angel hooked up, the Spirits would just Zap her.

Finally, it's worth considering that Angel has a destiny. A vampire with a soul is rare thing, and both sides have evidently been cultivating him for his role in the Tro-Clon. Given what we learn about Jasmine, these guys work on a very long time scale.
 

Altoz

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Ah. Having consulted your link, I see that the beginning of the spell refers to purgatory, which is a distinct metaphysical realm from hell in Catholicism, in which souls that have committed venial (as opposed to mortal) sins and not expiated or confessed them to appropriate parties). It seems to be calling on the overlords of purgatory to release a soul from either purgatory or hell, so that the ensouled vampire would therefore be (as we agree) struck with guilt and self-hatred over their past crimes and commit suicide as a result- which Angel probably didn't do because, as a Galway lad originally, he was undoubtedly brought up Catholic, with a strong anti-suicide ethos. And with his soul returned, he would be inhibited from doing so as a result. I think therefore that the purgatorial deities involved in this context would be happy to restrain a vampire from killing humans, as well as facilitating her or his redemptive acts of altruism and goodness and therefore earning time off purgatory as a result.
Actually, I wasn't thinking of Angel at all in this context, I was thinking more of Willow and Tara (alternate timeline) spending some time studying the grounds of the spell. At some point, they might have found a precursor general ensoulment ur-spell, potentially effective on all vampires, or else be able to extend it to all vampires within the bloodline of Aurelius (Dru, Spike and Penn as well as Angel/us). It'd be quite permissible for a whitewicca to use it as a defensive spell if it was intended to protect others from tangible harm. Problem solved. The Kalderash Spell is a form of greymagick. Thanks, Alpha., this is really helpful.
 
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