Lilah in Season 5

[PaulParmar1]

Should Lilah have been in the fold still on ATS Season 5?

 

[Stanger406]

I didn't hate Eve, but I would have much rather have had Lilah. I've tried looking up before if Eve was supposed to be Lilah originally, but haven't found anything definitive. I think she would have added so much to the season though. At least we get her once in a while in the comics though lol.

Can you imagine if her and Lindsay were working together in season 5 though, or even hooking up like Eve and Lindsay?

 

[PaulParmar1]

I didn't hate Eve, but I would have much rather have had Lilah. I've tried looking up before if Eve was supposed to be Lilah originally, but haven't found anything definitive. I think she would have added so much to the season though. At least we get her once in a while in the comics though lol.

Can you imagine if her and Lindsay were working together in season 5 though, or even hooking up like Eve and Lindsay?

I loved Eve but Lilah would've been much better!
The hooking up scenario would be interesting. I wonder how they would go together.
Either way their chemistry working together was great in Season 2.

 

[Tbpear]

Lilah should be in Season 5
A mistake not to have her

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

I love Lilah, but I'm honestly glad she wasn't in season 5. Lilah's arc in season 4 was amazing. Like every scene she's in is gold. Home was a wonderful send-off to her.

Season 5 is a mess. The tone is off, the characters are off. Everything is off. Lilah belongs in a gray Wolfram&Hart. Season 5 Wolfram&Hart is really just an evil law firm with no redeeming qualities apart from the Fang Gang. Lilah would hate to be part of it.

I'm glad I can keep Lilah just the way she was when she show was normal, and not have her changed by season 5.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Yes. Season 5 was supposed to be a metaphor for how the big corporate job changes you, robs you of your youthful idealism, et Al. Which is cute, I look forward to the Season set during 2008 where everyone is unemployed, but that's another story. Lilah, who was no doubt in the same boat 5-8 years ago, would serve as a great "Shadow self" of what future you is like. You know, these star lawyers are pretty young. Eve, while an excellent depiction of what the senior partners would think could seduce Angel. ("He likes yellow hair, right? Give her the first name you can think of for a human female and send her to earth.") Was still too young to have that effect. I mean, aside from Cordie, who would have been 23.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Lilah belongs in a gray Wolfram&Hart. Season 5 Wolfram&Hart is really just an evil law firm with no redeeming qualities apart from the Fang Gang. Lilah would hate to be part of it.

What redeeming qualities did Wolfram and Hart ever have? Haven't they always been ridiculously muahahaha! evil?

 

[GraceK]

What redeeming qualities did Wolfram and Hart ever have? Haven't they always been ridiculously muahahaha! evil?

They saved the world from the first. They are the true hero’s of season 7

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

They saved the world from the first. They are the true hero’s of season 7

Lalalalalala! Buffy and Willow stopped the first.

BTW, wasn't it Lindsey who sent the medallion? I mean, he recorporealized Spike and planted the mountain dew, so I point my finger at him.

 

[GraceK]

Lalalalalala! Buffy and Willow stopped the first.

BTW, wasn't it Lindsey who sent the medallion? I mean, he recorporealized Spike and planted the mountain dew, so I point my finger at him.

Lindsay sent the medallion to Angel in season 5. It was the senior partners, through Lilah that gave Angel the medallion in the season 4 finale , to specifically bring to Sunnydale. A way to sweeten the deal for Angel to take over W&H

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Lindsay sent the medallion to Angel in season 5. It was the senior partners, through Lilah that gave Angel the medallion in the season 4 finale , to specifically bring to Sunnydale. A way to sweeten the deal for Angel to take over W&H

Forgot about that, but they were merely taking care of a rival and making way for their own Angel-driven apocalypse.

 

[GraceK]

Forgot about that, but they were merely taking care of a rival and making way for their own Angel-driven apocalypse.

Yes. But they still saved the world, even if it was just for a moment. You know, to be honest I think the writers didn’t think through the implications of this. The Senior Partners say they want Angel and company to take over W&H, but they give him this medallion working on the assumption that Angel himself will wear it and be incinerated. I wish they would have explored their motivations more in season 5...that alone could have made a very interesting plot point. Spike unwittingly threw a wrench in some bigger plan of theirs.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

What redeeming qualities did Wolfram and Hart ever have? Haven't they always been ridiculously muahahaha! evil?

The people working for them. Some were pressured or forced into it, like the goat sacrifice guys. Plus, people were killed for disobeying orders or trying to escape; and joined blindly because they were recruited. Some workers were probably in charge of harmless things, and might be decent people in general. Lilah, Lindsey and Holland showed some redeeming qualities. They felt love, fear.
By "redeeming" I meant that W&H's people had positive qualities, and not just a thirst to kill and maim. Season 5 grossly simplified a complex, interesting place.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

The people working for them. Some were pressured or forced into it, like the goat sacrifice guys. Plus, people were killed for disobeying orders or trying to escape; and joined blindly because they were recruited. Some workers were probably in charge of harmless things, and might be decent people in general. Lilah, Lindsey and Holland showed some redeeming qualities. They felt love, fear.
By "redeeming" I meant that W&H's people had positive qualities, and not just a thirst to kill and maim. Season 5 grossly simplified a complex, interesting place.

There were still good and goodish characters in S5. It didn't seem as if everyone were as diabolical as the organisation itself. Of course, most of the focus is on the main characters and the contrast between them and the regular staff.

 

[GraceK]

The people working for them. Some were pressured or forced into it, like the goat sacrifice guys. Plus, people were killed for disobeying orders or trying to escape; and joined blindly because they were recruited. Some workers were probably in charge of harmless things, and might be decent people in general. Lilah, Lindsey and Holland showed some redeeming qualities. They felt love, fear.
By "redeeming" I meant that W&H's people had positive qualities, and not just a thirst to kill and maim. Season 5 grossly simplified a complex, interesting place.

Eh. I have to say I don’t really agree with this. To be fair to Wolfram and Hart, I don’t think they forced anything. They were all about free will. One of my favorite parts of season 1 was Holland talking to Lindsay about choices. H gave Lindsay a chance and Lindsay chose. Being capable of affection or love doesn’t make someone less evil. It makes them more interesting. Lilah would have been willing to kidnap and cut open an infant while he was still alive, her loving Wesley doesn’t change that. She’s evil. Awesome, complicated and fun yes, but evil.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Eh. I have to say I don’t really agree with this. To be fair to Wolfram and Hart, I don’t think they forced anything. They were all about free will. One of my favorite parts of season 1 was Holland talking to Lindsay about choices. H gave Lindsay a chance and Lindsay chose. Being capable of affection or love doesn’t make someone less evil. It makes them more interesting. Lilah would have been willing to kidnap and cut open an infant while he was still alive, her loving Wesley doesn’t change that. She’s evil. Awesome, complicated and fun yes, but evil.

Not everyone in W&H was in charge of murder. I'm sure plenty of people did relatively harmless things. Lindsey was a top player, so, of course, he did evil things. Holland offered him a choice, but it was really just a manipulation technique. He showed Lindsey he believed in him, that he was there for him - whatever he chose - and then offered Lindsey a brand new office. Lindsey had potential, and Holland played his cards right.
The guy who got decapitated for betraying the firm wasn't offered any choices, was he? No, because he was dispensable. It's not about choice, it's about an illusion of choice, most of the time.
Lilah knew what she signed up for, yes, but I do believe many didn't. Lilah is mostly evil.

Like I said, by "redeeming" I wasn't talking about redemption, I was talking about the old Wolfram&Hart having a heart, and likable characters. The new firm, in season 5, had Eve, Knox, the surgeon guy, and Hamilton, who was fun, but emotionless.

 

[GraceK]

Not everyone in W&H was in charge of murder. I'm sure plenty of people did relatively harmless things. Lindsey was a top player, so, of course, he did evil things. Holland offered him a choice, but it was really just a manipulation technique. He showed Lindsey he believed in him, that he was there for him - whatever he chose - and then offered Lindsey a brand new office. Lindsey had potential, and Holland played his cards right.
The guy who got decapitated for betraying the firm wasn't offered any choices, was he? No, because he was dispensable. It's not about choice, it's about an illusion of choice, most of the time.
Lilah knew what she signed up for, yes, but I do believe many didn't. Lilah is mostly evil.

Like I said, by "redeeming" I wasn't talking about redemption, I was talking about the old Wolfram&Hart having a heart, and likable characters. The new firm, in season 5, had Eve, Knox, the surgeon guy, and Hamilton, who was fun, but emotionless.

They didn’t have heart. Lindsay was the
Only one shown having any moral ambiguity. The whole concept of selling your soul is that you are pretty much aware of what that entails. Every employee of Wolfram and Hart sold their soul.. they signed a contract knowing it extended after death. Just because not every employee was a murderer doesn’t make them not evil. They knew what kind of business they were in. In season 2 during the review, all the employees are freaking out to impress the SP, including sacrificing their children. I rarely disagree with you but where do you get this idea that some are innocent? or Harmless? They are all involved in evil business. That doesn’t make them not likable, early seasons Wolfram and Hart were very likable. That’s the point, they represent a very human evil that’s not so easy to see. But let’s not pretend they were just naive young lawyers with stars in their eyes. They represent serial killers, demons, vampires and every human evil their is. You don’t need to personally kill some one to be an evil person. What I love best about Lilah is that she is fully aware that she is evil and she doesn’t care. She doesn’t make excuses.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

They didn’t have heart. Lindsay was the
Only one shown having any moral ambiguity. The whole concept of selling your soul is that you are pretty much aware of what that entails. Every employee of Wolfram and Hart sold their soul.. they signed a contract knowing it extended after death. Just because not every employee was a murderer doesn’t make them not evil. They knew what kind of business they were in. In season 2 during the review, all the employees are freaking out to impress the SP, including sacrificing their children. I rarely disagree with you but where do you get this idea that some are innocent? or Harmless? They are all involved in evil business. That doesn’t make them not likable, early seasons Wolfram and Hart were very likable. That’s the point, they represent a very human evil that’s not so easy to see. But let’s not pretend they were just naive young lawyers with stars in their eyes. They represent serial killers, demons, vampires and every human evil their is. You don’t need to personally kill some one to be an evil person. What I love best about Lilah is that she is fully aware that she is evil and she doesn’t care. She doesn’t make excuses.

"Heart" doesn't mean "good". It means emotion, personality, in this case.

You don't know if everyone signs those contracts that extend beyond death. What would Wolfram&Hart want with some random maintenance worker? And some people would sign contracts without reading them. Happens all the time.

Lilah didn't sell her soul, that's only metaphorical.

Numero Cinco, from season 5, was a good guy, wasn't he? I think it's naive to believe everyone is evil. Not all employees were lawyers, or important.

You're focusing only on lawyers and what you know of Lilah who, yes, was evil and knew it.

 

[GraceK]

Numero Cinco, from season 5, was a good guy, wasn't he? I think it's naive to believe everyone is evil. Not all employees were lawyers, or important.

He was a good guy who was so disillusioned that he willingly joined an evil law firm. He admitted it. And maybe the janitors weren’t evil. Or the construction guys. I’m saying that the lawyers, and most employees were fully aware that it was an evil law firm. Canon shows it. And yes, Lilah sold her soul. Literally...it’s not metaphorical. She got power and wealth and in exchange her afterlife is owned by
Them. She’s in hell, her soul belongs to Wolfram and Hart. And if I’m focusing on the lawyers, it because it’s the LAWYERS who are shown as antagonists, not bob the toilet
Cleaner .

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

He was a good guy who was so disillusioned that he willingly joined an evil law firm. He admitted it. And maybe the janitors weren’t evil. Or the construction guys. I’m saying that the lawyers, and most employees were fully aware that it was an evil law firm. Canon shows it. And yes, Lilah sold her soul. Literally...it’s not metaphorical. She got power and wealth and in exchange her afterlife is owned by
Them. She’s in hell, her soul belongs to Wolfram and Hart. And if I’m focusing on the lawyers, it because it’s the LAWYERS who are shown as antagonists, not bob the toilet
Cleaner .

This is so far beyond my initial post though. This wasn't what I meant. Let's agree to disagree. And I don't even disagree with you. We're just trying to prove different points.