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Lilah

StuckinTraffic

Miss Treager
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
2,645
Age
52
Location
Texas
I think they loved eachother. They might not have been able to admit it, either to eachother or to themselves (which is sometimes the hardest thing, imo) but the feelings were there. Witness Lilah's willingess to dress up and act like Fred for Wesley, and Wesley's trying to burn Lilah's contract. Those two acts were, to me, the most telling in their relationship.
 
S
Spirit_Of_Fred
i totally agree!!!!! :D

Spirit_Of_Fred

The Psycho
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
1,918
yes, yes, i totally i agree! and you put it much better than i would have put it! :thumbs:

However, following the loss of Wes' memories of Connor, I suspect that his character had regressed during Season 5 and he returned to his idealized and "obssessive" love for Fred.
if thats true, then wouldn't getting the memories back make him less crazy about fred's death? you said it really wasnt that bad til he got them back, and yet, if he stopped "obssesing" over her in those forgotten years, wouldnt remembering them make him feel better about it?
 
Joined
Sep 4, 2005
Messages
6,716
Location
Existential Heaven
Not really, because his new memories would be conflicting with his real memories....so not only was he fighting with her death as her lover, he was fighting with the memories of old and new....he was possibly arguing within himself the idea of...did he love her, did he love Lilah,....how can he love them both, what if he loved neither and its all because of the mindswipe.....

I personally believe that Wes loved Lilah because she was something a part of him thought he would never have had.
Fred was the perfect 'mate' for Nerdy Wes, BUT Lilah was so far out of THAT guys league.....but then this intelligent, beautiful powerful woman wants and needs him....the nerd inside was taken.....
She also came to him when he was at his lowest point, all his friends, including the girl he wanted, had turned their back on him, and infairness all he did was try to save them......
Lilah also epitomised everything he hated about the world...thats what maybe drew him to her in the first place....ala Angel to Darla in reprise(i think-the Holland manners Lift Epi).
 

LadyLavinia

Scooby
Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
1,642
Age
53
Location
Los Angeles
From livejournal.com -

MEMORY FLASH BREAK DOWN "“ 5.18 "Origin"

This is what I got from my frame-by-frame. It's quick(ish) and dirty.

Angel trusting Wes with Connor before Wes takes him
Prophecy
Knife to throat
Sahjan or however you spell it
Portal to Quartoth
Wes in hospital
Pillow to face
Connor drops through portal
Boxing the Angel
Lilah as Fred
Justine in cage
Connor and Cordelia having The Sex
Virgin sacrifice for Jasmine
What appears to be a quick flash of real time Wes with a look of horror
Evil Cordy with soul in globe
Lilah, dead, Angelus snacking
Jasmine
Hospital
Jasmine
Killing Jasmine
Lilah
Justine's cage
portal (or memories--I was frame by frame at this point)
Loa
Lilah as Fred
Angel right after Connor goes through the portal with Holtz
Wes real time
Pillow
Welding shot that appears to be from Deep Down (freeing Angel)
(note, the above could be from Tomorrow)
Baby Connor
Connor
Wes hits Lorne over the head
Angelus killing Holtz's family.
Holtz
Birth (notes don't say Jasmine or Connor.)
Wesley taking Connor
Wes and Lilah post-sex, Deep Down
Connor and Cordy, mid-sex
Wes with Justine in cage
Darla's ultrasound
Baby Connor
Wes and Lilah post-sex, Deep Down
Possible shot from the earthquake in Loyalty
Zappy memory thing or portal
Wes in hospital
Angel about to kill Connor
Wes post-sex, Deep Down
Darla staking self
Wes kidnaps Connor
Wes and Angel in hospital for Connor's check up
Hockey shirt
Gage
Real time (I think this says set: so Angel, Wes, Connor)
Handprint on Cordelia's belly
Sun getting blocked out
Wes getting into his car with Connor
DISCO SATAN! WE'VE MISSED YOU!
Fred and Gunn kissing (too quick to catch the ep.)
Jasmine
Lilah (probably as Fred, as most of these were)
Holtz
Angel, Connor, Wes in rapid succession real time
Lilah
Connor and Cordy have THE SEX
Connor arrives through portal
Connor, late S4, possibly Home (it's either that or he just killed Jasmine)


Wesley's eye snaps back to real time.
 

Anya2012

Floppy, hoppy, bunnies!
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Messages
1,377
Location
Australia!
Okay, I am probably going to get bashed for saying this, but was NOBODY disturbed by their relationship??!! I know I was.
I wasn't either...I found it really interesting. Well, I was at first, but their relationship grew on me.
 

Karol

With a soul
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
1,048
Age
32
Location
Brazil
Sineya
Gee I´m sure she loved him!
When he saves her from The Beast she´s almost crying... I bet she tried to say she loves him, when in the same scene she does that clichè "Wesley...? Nothing." thing but, well, she´s Lilah and would never do that lol
 

PurplePoof

Surgeon Of Mean
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
796
Age
32
Location
Canada
As a huge Lilah fan I was always disappointed that she got all sweaty with Wesley...I entrusted her to have better taste!

Perhaps the one advantage of this relationship was it allowed for Lilah's vulnerable side to show...her insecurity about Wesley's feelings for Fred...and I have to say her Fred impersonation was one of the creepiest things I've ever seen...
 

Tueuse de Vampires

Love will tear us apart..
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
5,709
Age
30
Location
Berlin
I find it interesting that many of the posters here eejust started at the point that Wesley obviously loved Lilah but then doubted if she loved him. The way I always saw it, it was the other way around: I was always so sure Lilah really loved Wesley, though I was shaky about Wesley, especially because he still had feelings for Fred even while he was with Lilah.
So why am I so sure lilah loved him? Well, first there's the stalking, when Lilah followed Wesley to Fred's presentation of her theory. Then there's Lilah dressing up as Fred, something I don't think a woman like Lilah would've gotten down to if she wasn't desperate enough. And third, just how happy and relieved Lilah looked upon seeing Wesley after that apokalyptic night.
 
Airam
Airam
agreed!

BlasterBoy606

Big Damn Hero
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
225
Location
America, you nosy pe
LOVE Lilah. She is one of my favorite characters, definitely in top 5 of the AtS characters with Faith, Darla, Cordelia, and someone else :lmao: She is so amazing, especially in "Deep Down", when she decapitates her boss! :D Did not see that coming, but I loved it. And when she dressed up as Fred : laugh :

About Wesley/Lilah, I agree with Cangel. Lilah had this love for Wesley once he turned bad, and couldn't get over it. So, she went to him in "Benediction". Wesley was alone...he had no friends at all. He was "betrayed" by everyone he has ever loved. He needed someone to be with so he wasn't completely alone, and Lilah was there, hoping she could be with him. It happened like that, IMO. Wesley STARTED to love Lilah, IMO, but never truly loved her. In my honest opinion, if Lilah didn't die, by the end of Season 5, Wesley would have probably been in love with Lilah :)
 

masterdkd

Townie
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
34
Disturbed by Wes/Lilah's relationship? NO. It was alot more entertaining to watch their relationship than Fred/Gunn any day. It was a lot more disturbing watching Fred/Gunn relationship.

I believe Wes/Lilah loved each other. But Lilah loved Wes more than he loved her. Wes loved Fred a lot more.

Lilah may not have told Wes that she loves him but you could tell she loves him. She was jealous that Wes went to Fred's seminar than staying with her. Then she went to dress like Fred.
 

Have Faith

Townie
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
56
Age
24
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
I hate Lilah. I don't know why, but I have a very personal grudge against her. She bothers me and every time I see her I just want to jump into the TV screen and strangle her.
 

TeamSunnydale

Potential
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
234
Location
London
Lilah was completely in love with Wesley. Wesley knew he cared about her, but loved Fred more. When Lilah was killed, he realized just how much he cared about her.
 

jellokitty

Potential
Joined
Sep 17, 2016
Messages
159
Location
UK
Black Thorn
I think Wes did love Lilah. In a different way than he loved Fred, sure but that doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't love Lilah. He brought good out of her and she made him see things more realistically which he needed. Putting people you love up on pedestals isn't the best way to love them. It's sweet and funny to me how Lilah saw his dark side and he saw her good side... made him realize that maybe she is redeemable. I loved seeing Lilah and Wes together (maybe not the Lilah in pigtails moment though).
 

Carrie Hopewell

Little girl lost in the woods
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
2,721
Age
23
Location
Lisbon, Portugal
Sineya
Regarding the initial question, I believe Lilah was in love with Wesley. However, Wesley loved (or almost loved) Lilah, but wasn't in love with her. This scene in 'Home' illustrates that:

Wesley: [...] You decapitate a loved one, you don't expect them to come visiting.
Gunn: Loved one?
Wesley: Figure of speech.

The expression "loved one" is usually used to describe family members; Wesley didn't say the woman you love - an expression used to describe Angel's love interests (Buffy and Cordy). Furthermore, calling "loved one" a figure of speech implies that Wes wasn't in love with Lilah (which is what Gunn was assuming), but his use of that figure of speech to begin with implies actual love. It's a bit like "I love you"/"No you don't but thanks for saying it.".

It's sad that Lilah had much deeper feelings for Wes than Wes had for her. Lilah was obviously in love with him and he inspired feelings of tenderness, jealousy and even loyalty that she never had before. Wesley and Lilah's relationship added more depth to her character, but I disagree that it made her redeemable. Lilah was evil and she was okay with that. She understood her world and felt no remorse for her actions, She didn't want nor needed to be redeemed. It would be unrealistic of the show to always portray conflicted and remorseful villains.
I also don't think Wes and Lilah understood each other perfectly. Lilah encouraged and approved Wesley's more unethical decisions (like chaining Justine up in his bedroom), but Wesley was still a deeply moral person, which is something Lilah could never understand. Wesley, likewise, never understood Lilah's amorality and lifestyle. She was selfish, lived guilt free and cared mostly about her pride and having a comfortable life with pretty things. She did care about her mother and, later, Wesley, but that's something he never realized. (Wesley's talk with dead Lilah in 'Salvage' revealed that he didn't believe she was capable of loving). That being said, Wesley and Lilah grew to care about each other, against their wishes, and accepted each other's flaws and perversions. They would never have worked out, but they gave one another some peace and contentment for a little while.

This is off-topic, but, in my opinion, the only person capable of fully understanding Lilah was Angel. He knows what it's like to live without a conscience and can play her game well. That's why I find Angel and Lilah's interactions fascinating. He always sees past her bullshit.
 
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