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Lindsey's Death

LadyLavinia

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I was really shocked that Lorne killed Lindsay because Lorne is not really a violent person or a killer. But I think Angel made the right decision because Lindsay only cares about power which means he will probably betray Angel and the team. So Angel couldn't take the risk of having Lindsay alive.

I don't believe that Angel had made the right decision. All he did was coerce Lorne into committing cold-blooded murder. Neither Angel or Lorne had an excuse. I don't buy that crap about murdering someone because they might pose a future threat. That bullshit and a lousy excuse to indulge in violence. It's one thing for Angel to be aware of Lindsay as a future threat. He should have waited until Lindsay actually became a threat, instead of ordering Lorne to commit murder.

I get so tired of hearing excuses for Angel's questionable actions.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
I agree completely.

Anya2012

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Lindsay's death reminded me of Nina Myers' death on "24". Not only was it chickens**t, it was an ugly act of murder, disguised as something morally right. The whole thing reeked of hypocrisy. Not only did it lower my opinion of Lorne, but my opinion of Angel hit the abyss after this. And he has not paid the consequences of Lindsay's death. In fact, this reminds me that Angel rarely pays the consequences of his deeds - including the ones he had committed with a soul.
Awesome post but it didn't lower my opnion of Lorne, I will always love him.

I have a theory: I think he must have given Lorne some kind of off-screen ultimatium or threatened him.
 

Kana

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Awesome post but it didn't lower my opnion of Lorne, I will always love him.

I have a theory: I think he must have given Lorne some kind of off-screen ultimatium or threatened him.
I think this is unfair on Angel, well a little. The real question is what did Lorne read and is destiny mutable. In the Verse Destiny is something that can be interpreted in many different ways. What will Lindsay do that would warrant his death. It seems that if Angel asked Lorne what he saw when he read him ( it would be a fair assumption), then it would seem that his death was for some greater good.

The problem is what greater good? Saying that Lindsay is invested in the whole Nietzschean philosophy isn't enough for me really. So many humans may subscribe to that concept and have the pontential to be dangerous but when does this potential become certainty?

I mean if Lindsay is going to do something does that mean it's a fixed a destiny? If it is then he's going to do whatever he's going to do no matter what. If Lorne is really an empath demon then what he's really reading is Lindsay's intentions. This perhaps makes more sense. If his vision is as clear as it was with say, Wes who was going to steal Connor then maybe killing Lindsay, although a seemingly immoral move was more to do with damage limitation. If this is intention, whatever it may be, is so strong then the tactical move was to kill Lindsay using Lorne because that was exactly the move he wouldn't expect. If he were to plan something then it would have expected a move a) from Angel himself and b) for that move to after the fight when down.

However the problem still remains, is that it's uncertain what Lorne reads, until we know that, I can't take it for granted that Angel and Lorne (because they are both responsible as far as I can tell) did the right thing.
 
L
LondonDude
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Icarium

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Neither Angel or Lorne had an excuse.
You mean apart from the fact that Lindsay was guilty as hell for many murders and other crimes and couldn't really be brought to justice apart from giving him to the Senior Partners who would have killed him in a much more horrible fashion?

That said, killing him while letting Harmony go was extremely hypocritical and made no sense whatsoever.
 

Lyri

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And once again, we're back to the fact of, if you think like that, then Angel, Spike, Willow, Faith, Connor, Andrew and even Giles should be killed for the same reasons.

They were all giving the chance to redeem themselves, why should Lindsey be any different?

Although I do agree about Harmony.

Also, when did Lorne read Lindsey and see that he was going to do all these things? Did I miss that?
 

Icarium

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And once again, we're back to the fact of, if you think like that, then Angel, Spike...Faith, Connor, Andrew...should be killed for the same reasons.
Fine by me. :) Seriously, two wrongs don't make it right. Following this reasoning the good guys might as well not bother to kill anyone, human or demon. Sure, it's hypocritical to kill Lindsay and not Faith but the reasons for killing Lindsay are very much real and compelling.
 

Kean

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Also, when did Lorne read Lindsey and see that he was going to do all these things? Did I miss that?
The consensus on this is that he either read him before Angel chopped off his hand OR when he got his evil hand and sang L.A. Song. Either way, he definitely had the opportunity to read him.
 

Kana

Soulless human
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The consensus on this is that he either read him before Angel chopped off his hand OR when he got his evil hand and sang L.A. Song. Either way, he definitely had the opportunity to read him.
Yeah, I mean we know that Lorne was able to read Wes and see his intentions merely by hearing him hmm a lullaby. He's heard Lindsay sing plenty of times, so as much as such things can be known ( and I'm not taking it for granted that they can be known) he would have had a relative handle on Lindsay's motivations. However didn't Lorne himself say nothing is written in stone...
 

Kean

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Yeah, I mean we know that Lorne was able to read Wes and see his intentions merely by hearing him hmm a lullaby. He's heard Lindsay sing plenty of times, so as much as such things can be known ( and I'm not taking it for granted that they can be known) he would have had a relative handle on Lindsay's motivations. However didn't Lorne himself say nothing is written in stone...
He did but I have this hazy memory of him saying that Lindsay choose his path. Or was that Wes? Lindsey could have taken a righteous path but he (apparently) turned his back on that when he took the W&H promotion instead of getting out.

It is certainly a jarring message when compared to the rest of the mythology which tells us that forgiveness and redemption are there for all who want it and are prepared to work for it. Perhaps that is the distinction, Lindsey did not want it. Not really.
 

Hale Caesar

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I didn't like it because even though Lindsey was evil, Lorne and the rest of the Fang Gang shouldn't be allowed to decide what human lives or dies. I couldn't help thinking that Buffy would have put Lindsey in prison or something, it also (when I think about it) goes against Angel's mission statement of redemption for what he did as Angelus
 
Lyri
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Angelus Domini

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I wonder though, why Lorne didn't use up all of the rounds in his gun to kill Lindsey. I mean, Lindsey was pretty skilled, even as a human. It would have been pretty dangerous if he survived the 2 shots and disarmed Lorne. Well, not dangerous, actually. He'd kill Lorne. lol

I thought, maybe he was saving ammo, just in case there were any more Sahrvin clan outside that he'll need to shoot. But he dropped the gun, a H&K UMP with a suppressor and using subsonic rounds, I think.
 

WakingNightmare

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I wonder though, why Lorne didn't use up all of the rounds in his gun to kill Lindsey. I mean, Lindsey was pretty skilled, even as a human. It would have been pretty dangerous if he survived the 2 shots and disarmed Lorne. Well, not dangerous, actually. He'd kill Lorne. lol

I thought, maybe he was saving ammo, just in case there were any more Sahrvin clan outside that he'll need to shoot. But he dropped the gun, a H&K UMP with a suppressor and using subsonic rounds, I think.
It was hard enough for Lorne just too make those two shots, I doubt he would've had the stomach to do it anymore.
 

Goby

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I really felt terrible for Lorne. As someone who believes in karma, I felt the bad karma generated by Lorne's action was immediate and life altering.

He shouldn't have done that. What is interesting is I don't think Buffy has ever killed anyone (at least a human) in that type of fashion.

If the comics are truly canonical (I haven't read them), I am hoping Lorne is dealing with his actions.
 

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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I really felt terrible for Lorne. As someone who believes in karma, I felt the bad karma generated by Lorne's action was immediate and life altering.

He shouldn't have done that. What is interesting is I don't think Buffy has ever killed anyone (at least a human) in that type of fashion.

If the comics are truly canonical (I haven't read them), I am hoping Lorne is dealing with his actions.
Well, it was clear how against doing it Lorne was. I got the feeling Angel didn't give him a choice in the matter.

My question is; why didn't Angel kill Lindsey himself? Because he knew it was wrong. Having Lorne do it was really low for Angel. I lost a lot of respect for him after that.
 
Lyri
Lyri
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Taake

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My question is; why didn't Angel kill Lindsey himself? Because he knew it was wrong.
Of course he did.
But then I don't think that's why he didn't do it himself. Like has been said before I think that, especially at that time, Lindsey was a mere footnote in Angel's greater picture and he had bigger bads to prioritize over some power-hungry low-level lawyer guy with an inflated ego (I do love Lindsey but when rating 'big threats' at that time he wasn't one of them... yet).

Angel might have been Linsey's nemesis. But Lindsey was not Angel's.
 
brinkster130
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Kana

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Well, it was clear how against doing it Lorne was. I got the feeling Angel didn't give him a choice in the matter.
A lot of people assume that, but I don't think there was any indication that Angel forced Lorne to do anything.


My question is; why didn't Angel kill Lindsey himself? Because he knew it was wrong. Having Lorne do it was really low for Angel. I lost a lot of respect for him after that.
Well, I think it's for two reasons. As it's been said, Angel was Lindsay's nemisis, but not the other way around. The second reason is that it was a move that Lindsay wouldn't have expected. He would have expected Angel to kill him but not Lorne.

The bottom line is, is that I can't see any evidence that Lorne was forced into it. If Angel's cupable, then so is Lorne.
 

sharona1981

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I have mixed feelings about this if I'm honest-as much of a villain as Lindsey could definitely be, I thought he was a terrific character and Christian Kane did an amazing job portrayal of a character who was often in conflict. While nobody could deny that Lindsey was very difficult to like a lot of the time, I cannot condone the decision to have Lorne kill him. Whether Angel forced him, or whether he decided to do this 'one last job' for the team himself, Lorne committing murder would have massive repurcussions for the character. We all saw how broken he was after he killed Lindsey. As for Lindsey himself, was Angel absolutely certain that Lindsey couldn't be trusted-and even if he was, that didn't give him the right to have a human being murdered.
 

LadyLavinia

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Of course he did.
But then I don't think that's why he didn't do it himself. Like has been said before I think that, especially at that time, Lindsey was a mere footnote in Angel's greater picture and he had bigger bads to prioritize over some power-hungry low-level lawyer guy with an inflated ego (I do love Lindsey but when rating 'big threats' at that time he wasn't one of them... yet).

Angel might have been Linsey's nemesis. But Lindsey was not Angel's.

And that's a good excuse to order someone's death?
 

VisionGuy

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Having Angel ask Lorne to kill Lindsey because he might pose a future threat really shows how Angel changed over the course of the series. In Sanctuary, he tells Buffy, "This is about saving somebody's soul. That's what I do here." I guess he didn't live by that philosophy in the end. He could have just as easily saved Lindsey the way he saved Faith.
 
Lyri
Lyri
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L
LondonDude
I guess I guess Angel thought Lindsay wasn't worth saving.
T
TheVoid68
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PrettyLilGirl

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I think it was mainly (writers point of view) to make us all go 'omg!' and talk about it like this ;)

I liked it as I saw it as Lorne doing it FOR Angel rather then Angel making him. I think it was him doing that one last thing for Angel to show his loyalty but also so he could feel he could turn his back on them all. I mean after loosing Fred he just didnt want to be there anymore so doing something that big was like handing in his resignation and not feeling bad about it..if that makes sense..

I remember the first time i watched it it made me get goosebumps because it was a shock..i mean it was Lorne..and then says 'Goodnight folks' broke my little heart

---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 PM ----------

And I LOVE Joss for saying 'Im going to bleeping kill u' he must have had such a smug look after that :D
 
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