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Lindsey's Death

Litheran

Rebel without a pulse
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Okay; here's where I come from on this point. Lindsey has always been a morally ambiguous person. He's been involved with Wolfram and Hart off and on for quite a while; but so have all our leads. He's given Angel a hard time and his loyalty has been shown as shaky. Again, all our leads have been tested and found wanting some times in their commitment to good and each other.

I personally don't think it was fitting to have him be killed; especially by Lorne. Angel's mission statement is to help those who need it most; and also to find redemption.

If Lindsey had given his life saving Lorne during their task; it would have been more fitting IMO. Lindsey could scheme and plan all he wanted; but in a crunch when it came down to it; he tried to do right. Have him perform one selfless act; without foresight or anticipation of outcome. Redemption is possible for anyone; and I think that would have been a stronger end for the character and the message of Angel.
 
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Konoe

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Well I have to say I loved that Lindsey died the way he did. It wasn't expected and hell Lindsey himself kept yelling out that Angel was the one who killed him.

But what made Lindsey's death better was that he felt proud to be working on their side and being able to call them a "team" in which he was part of.

Lorne was also superb because you wouldn't have expected that to ever come out of him. Pulling out a gun and just shooting Lindsey.

Watching it I should have known something was up because well Lorne honestly never fought from what I remember he just helped them by hitting a high note and then running off and to be paired up with Lindsey should have just been screaming "Something's Up!".

Either way I loved it! Was shocked and then laughed and then saddened that Lorne left for good.

/End rant.
 

Slay me

Townie
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I have been puzzling over Lorne killing Lindsey for a long time. I was convinced that I missed something because it came out of the blue. Sure, he was unpredictable, but it was a bit unseemly to have pacifist Lorne take him out in a rather underhanded manner. Angel had a tendency to make self interested choices at the expense of those around him.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
Hmn, Lindsey had at least two chances to change his evil ways. 'Blind Date' (which he gave up on because 'office perks' beat more possible child murder in the future) and after Season 2 when he left W&H with his new hand.
The first of those times Angel even supported his attempt at reformation.

But it didn't take- Lindsey came back to take on Angel again. Manipulated Spike, used the memory of Doyle to do it.

I think it was perfectly in keeping with his thinking for Angel to think 'this guy will just revert again because its in his nature.' and have him killed. Angel didn't trust Lindsey enough to think his soul could be saved, unlike say, Faith. Who he helped and who then stayed helped.
 

white avenger

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The thing that bothers me the most about Lindsey's death has always been the fact that, while it might have been a good idea, the timing was insane. Angel should have let him fight in the final battle, then, if he survived, kill him once the dust settled.
 

Wildfly

blue fire
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After Dyorgan's death and that stunt with Lindsey I'd never ally myself with Angel and surely would never trust him enough to turn my back to him :eek:
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

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Lindsey DEFINITELY deserved a better death than he got. I actually felt bad when Lorne killed him.

Angel really should've been the one to kill Lindsey.
 

LeeJones41

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I hate it, as well. If Whedon had wanted Lindsey dead that badly, he should have arranged another scenario, unless he was willing to let Angel and Thorne pay the price for their murderous act sometime in the future.
 

Mr Trick

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I was fine with how his death was handled. It was a nice surprise and gave Lorne more of a purpose in the finale. Didn't really think Lindsay needed to return, or at least not to be a big part of the final season the way he was. But I think his death was handled spot on.
 

LeeJones41

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It's one thing for Lindsey to die. It's another to sit back and approve an act of deliberate murder. No matter how evil Lindsey was, or that he might prove to be a major threat - what Angel and Lorne did was evil, as far as I'm concerned. I don't know about Lorne, but I suspect Angel will never pay the consequences of plotting Lindsey's death. And that makes me dislike his character even more.
 

Spanish Flame

It's Not Easy Being Green
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I dont like the end of Angel in general . I dont like Lorne killing Lindsey because I know that's the least he wanted to do despite Lindsey being suche an asshole and evil . Both .

They rush in the end made Joss create this story end all of a sudden .

On the other hand I agree that Lorne killing Lindsey was Angel message to him he is not worth even being killed by him.

Just a thought . ...
 

Mylie

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The thing that bothers me the most about Lindsey's death has always been the fact that, while it might have been a good idea, the timing was insane. Angel should have let him fight in the final battle, then, if he survived, kill him once the dust settled.
But the point of killing Lindsey was tying up loose ends. Angel didn't expect to come out of that battle alive so he approached Lindsey about taking over W&H after all's done. I don't think he had any plan of assassinating him if he did survive the fight. I think he just didn't want to risk his (and everyone's lives) in that fight to have Lindsey make it worthless by taking over W&H and bring it back to it's roots. It wasn't about killing him, it was about Lindsey not being in a position to take over the company once he's no longer in a position to be in charge or fight the law firm himself.

Anyway, I hate that scene not because of Lindsey's death itself but because of what it says about Angel's state of mind. I love Epiphany's mission statement so much and to me that's what AtS has always been about and then came season 5 and Not Fade Away and while it's a great scene (and finale) on it's own, it's such a slap in the face to see how corrupted (killing Drogyn, making Lorne kill Lindsey) Angel ended up by the finale, despite him wanting to die to show he's not. Maybe not towards wanting to fight evil, etc. but definitely towards his mission to do good everyday and not get impatient about the big picture. Damn, I'm still really salty about that finale.
 
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white avenger

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Somewhat off topic, but does anyone know whether Joss pitched "Angel" as a series to any other network after WB canceled the show, the way that he did with "Buffy?" I know that he had plans for a 6th Season before his falling out with the network, and I don't recall him having any other big projects in the works at that time.
 

Guy

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Somewhat off topic, but does anyone know whether Joss pitched "Angel" as a series to any other network after WB canceled the show, the way that he did with "Buffy?" I know that he had plans for a 6th Season before his falling out with the network, and I don't recall him having any other big projects in the works at that time.
Well, he was working on 'Serenity' at the time.

But the point of killing Lindsey was tying up loose ends. Angel didn't expect to come out of that battle alive so he approached Lindsey about taking over W&H after all's done. I don't think he had any plan of assassinating him if he did survive the fight. I think he just didn't want to risk his (and everyone's lives) in that fight to have Lindsey make it worthless by taking over W&H and bring it back to it's roots. It wasn't about killing him, it was about Lindsey not being in a position to take over the company once he's no longer in a position to be in charge or fight the law firm himself.

Anyway, I hate that scene not because of Lindsey's death itself but because of what it says about Angel's state of mind. I love Epiphany's mission statement so much and to me that's what AtS has always been about and then came season 5 and Not Fade Away and while it's a great scene (and finale) on it's own, it's such a slap in the face to see how corrupted (killing Drogyn, making Lorne kill Lindsey) Angel ended up by the finale, despite him wanting to die to show he's not. Maybe not towards wanting to fight evil, etc. but definitely towards his mission to do good everyday and not get impatient about the big picture. Damn, I'm still really salty about that finale.
Yep. Season 5 is my favorite season of AtS, but 'Not Fade Away' is a very flawed finale. It kinda works as the tragic ending of season 5 (W&H wanted to corrupt Angel by turning him into a nihilistic puppet they could control, and instead they ended up corrupting him by turning him into a Jasmine-like zealot who made life very difficult for them), but it does NOT work as the final ending of Angel's story.
And what's worse is, it sometimes feels like the writers don't understand how messed up Angel's actions are: The final scene ("Let's go to work") is framed as a heroic last stand that we're supposed to root for, but in reality there's nothing heroic about it - it's a pointless suicide, and Angel had to do vile things for that suicide.
 

GraceK

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It was wrong to kill Lindsay and nothing would convince me otherwise. The idea that he might betray them in the future is a lame excuse. Lindsay is not pure evil, hes very human and in the end he made a choice to help out the good guys in NFA and was proud that he did it. To murder him in cold blood while he was helping is disgusting.

Seriously...you keep Harmony around, and let her work for you....she actually betrays you to Hamilton but its Lindsay that should be killed? To me it seemed petty and vindictive of Angel, and i think he only did it cause he didnt like Lindsay and wanted him out of the way. I havent forgotten than Lindsay saved innocent children in Blind Date... Lindsay made the wrong choice to stay with Wolfram and Hart, but he still did something good...and again in Dead End when he shut down the human parts operation and didnt accept the promotion. In fact, I really have no idea why he even came back...he had a chance to be high up in Wolfram and Hart and turned it down...and hes jealous all of sudden that Angel is CEO? Lame. If anyone showed that they did have a conscience it was Lindsay...I think he was perfectly capable of turning around and possibly seeking redemption. His whole character is one of ambiguity.. to kill him goes against everything Angel was supposed to stand for. Just my opinion btw...also, on a personal note i feel Angel is last creature on earth who should pass judgement on someone else.
 

AnthonyCordova

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Sineya
I agree that Lindsey deserved a better way to go, but let's not lose sight of the fact that Lorne deserved better than that too. I didn't like what that end had to say about Lorne. He left things so miserably and low.
 

Carrie Hopewell

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The way I see it, Lindsey was above the law. Angel's world is not the human one. Angel knows better than anyone that he doesn't have a real identity. In the first season, Angel would often bring legal justice to the people he saved by helping W&H clients lose cases (by providing witnesses). But most of the time, Angel killed demons.

Angel never really had to deal with humans, yet when he did it was always ended in murder. There's Holtz who the A.I team ignored with catastrophic consequences (Connor), but who still died anyway. And really, how else could it have ended? Do you think Holtz would have stopped coming after Angel, and leaving victims in his wake? Justine was freed by Wesley but alone she was mostly harmless, unlike Holtz. Holtz? He was too far gone to see reason. He would've gotten himself killed sooner or later.

The professor who sent Fred to Pylea also died. Angel and Gunn wanted justice in a different way but I think they didn't know how to provide it at all, nor did they have a plan in mind. In the end, murder it was. Sending him to a hell dimension would've killed him regardless but Gunn snapped his neck for good measure.

And then there was Lindsey. Angel tried to help him. Perhaps he could've tried harder but it's not his responsibility to save everyone. He does his best but it's not his fault if he fails. Angel let Lindsey go with a warning and a prank the first time, because it seemed like he was a changed person. But then Lindsey came back, more set on power and murder plots than ever, and what was Angel to do? Get him arrested? How would that work? Also, Lindsey had enough contacts to escape prison, I'm sure. Angel could've tried to get Lindsey back in the W&H hell dimension but at that point he couldn't because of his plan against W&H. Angel could've changed Lindsey's memories but there was no time. Murder ensured Angel didn't leave W&H a good and readily available successor who could've undone what Angel tried to do there.

I mean, Angel didn't kill Lilah because it was wrong and Lilah would've been replaced anyway, but I could almost guarantee that her successor would've been a lot less intelligent than her anyway. Perhaps that would've avoided some unnecessary pain all around.

So, really, there is no right or wrong when it comes to killing humans in the Angel universe. Sometimes that was the only way to save people. Angel gave Lindsey plenty of chances before resorting to the final solution and he did it because he didn't even have time to do anything else. I also don't care that it was Lorne who killed Lindsey. Angel gave all of them a choice. Join him or leave. Lorne chose to kill Lindsey and it was the only thing he did all year. It's not like Lorne was ever that involved in things. He was also the one put in the least dangerous situation. I neither blame Angel for Lorne's actions nor do I feel sorry for Lorne and/or Lindsey. It was cruel, but couldn't be avoided. I'm sure Angel killed nicer demons than Lindsey and no one cares.
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

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Angel kills Drogyn (a paragon of good), then tells Lorne to kill Lindsey...no matter the reasons, these aren't the actions of a champion.

It really makes you question the sincerity of Angel's "heroes" speech to Connor.
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
I already questioned it since he then kicked his child out of his house and forced him to be a homeless teenager with no family, friends, skills, money, education, legal status, or experience of life on Earth.

LeeJones41

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So, really, there is no right or wrong when it comes to killing humans in the Angel universe. Sometimes that was the only way to save people. Angel gave Lindsey plenty of chances before resorting to the final solution and he did it because he didn't even have time to do anything else. I also don't care that it was Lorne who killed Lindsey. Angel gave all of them a choice. Join him or leave. Lorne chose to kill Lindsey and it was the only thing he did all year. It's not like Lorne was ever that involved in things. He was also the one put in the least dangerous situation. I neither blame Angel for Lorne's actions nor do I feel sorry for Lorne and/or Lindsey. It was cruel, but couldn't be avoided. I'm sure Angel killed nicer demons than Lindsey and no one cares.
I care about all of Angel's questionable acts as a "souled" vampire, because I don't like them. And I don't like how his actions are brushed aside or excused.

Yeah, Angel and Lorne's murder of Lindsey was cruel. But it could have been avoided. They don't have an excuse. And if Joss Whedon expects me to approve of what happened to Lindsey in this episode, he can forget it.
 
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